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For a single Haywire toss, sure.

For Assaulting, you really should be able to either route around them or shoot them up.

There is a bit too much anti-AV out there, but wouldn't this clear up some of the most offensive pieces? The WK and Riptide both become more manageable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the logic is "Melts sucks because MC", plus "Let's make these stupid MCs into Vehicles", is the response:

-No, because vehicles suck. Because of all the AT. Which sucks, because MC.
Or:
-Oh happy day! Melta may mean what it should!

Bharring wrote:
For a single Haywire toss, sure.

For Assaulting, you really should be able to either route around them or shoot them up.

There is a bit too much anti-AV out there, but wouldn't this clear up some of the most offensive pieces? The WK and Riptide both become more manageable.

Yes, I agree about that. In fact, I think they might become a bit TOO vulnerable to autocannons. The whole hull point thing messes everything up to me. Up is down, low shot high STR is bad, med STR high shot is good. I don't want to go back to 5th, but I've got like 12 BA tanks that are now collecting dust because they are awful.

Look at all the weapons junked in 7th ed: melta, lascannon, bright lance, heavy rail rifle, hammerhead rail gun, etc. It's stupid. And a big reason is that ALL those weapons suck against MCs. Specifically MCs in cover. And you can't rely on getting an explodes before you hp it out, even with melta. I vomit in my mouth a little every time I field a unit with melta because I know that MCs are gonna eat my face.

Specifically, because of most MCs with 4+ wounds.

Although Nid MCs on foot make up for that by typically being slow.

A Wraithlord fears Lascannons. Even Krak Missiles. A DP pays good points for those wounds at T5.

Its thinks like the WK, NDK, and Riptide that make MCs a problem. And those are the things we are talking about turning into Vehicles.

Bharring wrote:
Specifically, because of most MCs with 4+ wounds.

Although Nid MCs on foot make up for that by typically being slow.

A Wraithlord fears Lascannons. Even Krak Missiles. A DP pays good points for those wounds at T5.

Its thinks like the WK, NDK, and Riptide that make MCs a problem. And those are the things we are talking about turning into Vehicles.

How much does a WL in ruins fear lascannons? Or krak missiles? The platforms that carry those weapons are usually a) overcosted or b) immobile or c) easy to take out, or, because this is the Imperium we are talking about, ALL THREE. That is why 48" Imperial weapons suck against the field generally speaking. Except the autocannon, which is kind of our surrogate scatter laser, but not as good of course. Of course. Devastators? Nope. Russes? Nope. Predators? Okay, whatever. IG heavy weapon teams? Doubled out by scatterlasers, LOL. IG blobs with divination buffs, yes, those are effective.

While I see your point, I think you're overstating the case. Sure, a Wraithlord in ruins won't be killed in a single shooting phase by a team of lascannon devs unless it gets very unlucky, it will be burnt toast the second it steps outside the ruins, which neutralizes its one advantage over a Falcon or Fire Prism. (That being the ability to assault effectively). Lascannons, and for that matter even missile launchers are terrifying to DE and Ork transport-heavy lists (which, I'll admit, aren't top-tier tournament stuff, but are still common).

That said, if the Riptide were made a walker (specifically - the others too, though), it would be much more dangerous to do anything except nova-charge the shield every turn, since any AP1 pen has a 33% chance to be instantly deadly. Also, walkers don't get FNP - and even if that were changed to IWND, that only helps if you don't, in fact, die. At the very least, the RT and WK would get a whole lot easier to kill on average - much easier for, say, Imperial Fists. (Go Tank Hunters, maybe it matters now!)

Martel,

With the specific case of a Wraithlord in ruins, let's say 2xBL and Glaive, vs a 10man Dev squad with 4xLC. Also in ruins.

About the same points.

The WL will kill:
2x(2/3)(5/6)(1/2), or 20/36 Marines/round.

The LC Devs do
4x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2), or about 8/9ths an HP a turn.

Not as scary in a single turn as I thought, but the Wraithlord only has 3 wounds to the Dev squad's 10.

So scary might be too strong a term. Reasonably effective.

But the lascannon devs will only get one or two shots tops, after the scatterlasers are done. Then the WL can do whatever it wants. The 6" movement is rather limiting, though. The 12" on GMCs and IKs is pretty dominating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Martel,

With the specific case of a Wraithlord in ruins, let's say 2xBL and Glaive, vs a 10man Dev squad with 4xLC. Also in ruins.

About the same points.

The WL will kill:
2x(2/3)(5/6)(1/2), or 20/36 Marines/round.

The LC Devs do
4x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2), or about 8/9ths an HP a turn.

Not as scary in a single turn as I thought, but the Wraithlord only has 3 wounds to the Dev squad's 10.

So scary might be too strong a term. Reasonably effective.

That's correct, but non one uses 10 man dev squads anymore. Marines can't afford 5 dead weight wounds in a dev squad anymore. So there are only 5 wounds to give up. And each wound likely gets rid of a LC.

Fine:

T1:
WL kills 2/3rd a marine (rounding up).
Remaining 4.33 do 8/9ths of a wound.

T2
(19/9) HP WL kills 2/3rd of a Marine
Remaining 3.66 do (3.66x(2/9)=) 7.25/9 of a wound

T3
(11.75/9) HP WL kills 2/3rd of a Marine
Remaining 3 Marines do 6/9 of a wound

T4
(5.75/9) HP WL kills 2/3rd of a Marine
Remaining 2.33 Marines do (4.66/9) of a wound

T5
(1.11/9) HP WL kills 2/3 of a Marine
Remaining 1.66 Marines kill (3.33/9) of a wound, overkilling the WK by a good margin.

So a much cheaper min Dev squad still eats the Wraithlord, while costing substantially less.

As for being shot off the table by SL, I don't see what that has to do with if Lascannons can threaten a Wraithlord.

(Even at 5, the first doesn't cut down on firepower).

Bharring wrote:
Fine:

T1:
WL kills 2/3rd a marine (rounding up).
Remaining 4.33 do 8/9ths of a wound.

T2
(19/9) HP WL kills 2/3rd of a Marine
Remaining 3.66 do (3.66x(2/9)=) 7.25/9 of a wound

T3
(11.75/9) HP WL kills 2/3rd of a Marine
Remaining 3 Marines do 6/9 of a wound

T4
(5.75/9) HP WL kills 2/3rd of a Marine
Remaining 2.33 Marines do (4.66/9) of a wound

T5
(1.11/9) HP WL kills 2/3 of a Marine
Remaining 1.66 Marines kill (3.33/9) of a wound, overkilling the WK by a good margin.

So a much cheaper min Dev squad still eats the Wraithlord, while costing substantially less.

As for being shot off the table by SL, I don't see what that has to do with if Lascannons can threaten a Wraithlord.

(Even at 5, the first doesn't cut down on firepower).

It's a synergy thing. It's the same kind of thinking as to why Riptides are like three times better than Dreadknights. You have to take the mathhammer and put it in context of how the game is actually played. Even my lowly ass terrible useless BA can get devs off the table. Here, have a fragnought. Die. Drop fragnought says it doesn't matter how good your devs are against the rest of my list because they are dead.

In that regard, a Wraithlord with two Heavies is 170pts for two weapons moving 6" each turn. With 3W and no invuln, its easy to remove. If it can't be removed, it can be avoided easily.

It ignores Boltguns, but doesn't take a lot of anti-tank to kill it. Sure, it takes 6 Krak missiles on average, or a single round of shooting with a single Grav Cannon without an Amp. Or 18 Splinter shots.

Wouldn't a Dreadnaught have a reasonable chance against it, at a fraction of the price?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Fun fact -Splinter or Grav can kill over 3 Wraithlords as quickly as it can kill 1 10-man Tac squad.)

Bharring wrote:
In that regard, a Wraithlord with two Heavies is 170pts for two weapons moving 6" each turn. With 3W and no invuln, its easy to remove. If it can't be removed, it can be avoided easily.

It ignores Boltguns, but doesn't take a lot of anti-tank to kill it. Sure, it takes 6 Krak missiles on average, or a single round of shooting with a single Grav Cannon without an Amp. Or 18 Splinter shots.

Wouldn't a Dreadnaught have a reasonable chance against it, at a fraction of the price?

Maybe? Not BA dreadnoughts, because we have the lame ass dreads now. Lucky us. AV 12 with no jink is just a death sentence, though. Especially vs Eldar. Basically every weapon like a missile launcher or lascannon an Imperium list brings just makes that list worse against the field. Good against WL, yes. But I can't game against WL, I have to game against everything in the game. The 48" guns just don't have the oomph they need to justify their costs.


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I can't rely on a dev squad to crack a rhino anymore or even stun it. Why would I ever use them?

Are you sure about that?

They hit at the same time in CC. Both at WS4.
With a CC weapon, Dreads wound on 2s. No save.
With a CC weapon, WLs glance on 3s. No save.

Dreads have A3.
Wraithlords have A3

Dreads have 3HP.
Wraithlords have 3 Wounds.

It comes down to which is better - wounding on 2s, or pen effects.

Probably the pen effects, by a little. Which is fitting, because Wraithlords cost more.

Add to that the weaponry. Stock, a Wraithlord has Flamers or Catapults. They don't matter.

BA dreads have two attacks. Because feth ba.

I had forgotten just how bad Dreds were.

So Wraithlord wins, even for the points.

Not for all purposes, but 1v1 in CC.

But are you afraid of it? When was the last time a Dred with no drop pod without heavy weapons scared you?

You'd be surprised. BA shooting is pretty bad. I'd probably have to try to hp it out with melta guns.

Basically evertthing scares me because assault meqs are bad.

Or play keep away?

I've had to do that with my Marines vs a unit of the DE nasties. T7 3+ FNP was a bit more than my army could take. But 6" move with no shenanigans is evadeable.

Maelstrom will make me go visit the objective its parked on. Count on it.

Otherwise, yes, I can run away.

Tarpit with a Tac squad?
It'll kill little more than 1 a round.

Bharring wrote:
Tarpit with a Tac squad?
It'll kill little more than 1 a round.

The sad part is that without gladius, I actually have relatively few obj sec units and so I can't sacrifice them. When you can't shoot and can't chop as well as advertised and get no free units, the game is quite harsh.

Well, if you can't sacrifice a single 70pt squad to hold a 125-170pt beast for a few rounds, perhaps you need more squads.

Bharring wrote:
Well, if you can't sacrifice a single 70pt squad to hold a 125-170pt beast for a few rounds, perhaps you need more squads.

It's a balance of squads vs units that can actually do something. DA got fixed with lots of tl plasma, rending cc weapons and awesome ravenwing rules. Vanilla has gladius and grav cannons etc. BA troops are both total liabilities but necessary because of obj sec. They are critical for scoring because I cant clear obj with shooting and melee often drags out.

Ok...been thinking on the disparity between Mc and vehicles. I think ib came up with an odd solution. It will take some time, the it will essentially involve all no biological MC moving to walkers. Next will be reworking the interaction between pens, glances, AP and the damage table. My initial thought, unfortunately, is to create more sub-classes of vehicles. More once I'm back to my computer.

Martel732 wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or maybe get rid of AP 2 for MCs.

What about remove AP2 from MC's and give them both rending for a chance to remove armour?... we are talking about 2 ton goliaths of metal/ bone so I don't think they should be entirely neutered

Maybe AP 3 rending? I'm just tired of *the heaviest armor EVAR" being ignored by so many units. Riptides trivially punching out Sanguinary Guard is just vomit inducing.

I feel that this unfairly hurts Nids. I completely agree that the Riptide shouldn't have AP 2, but thats only one MC, that still sucks at combat anyway.
Really Walkers need a buff and i feel MCs can be largely left alone.