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I have a question; has anyone ever gamed alternate ways to choose who goes first? My idea, off the top of my head is, the army with fewer points goes first.
Suddenly, there is a reason not to fill every point of your army, and a psychological aspect to list building - how many points am I willing to pay to go first?

Of Course, if you have tied points, then you roll off as normal.

There's a neat thought. I'm not sure how I feel about basing it on who has fewer points though. Incentivizing taking fewer points worth of stuff means incentivizing people to bring fewer cool models and upgrades. I worry that that would mean all those fluffy, non-competitive little upgrades (giving my swooping hawk exarch a power weapon) would be the first things to get cut.

The biggest argument against changing how going first is resolved that I can see is that anything more complicated than a roll off would eat up more time. That said, some sort of "mini-game" might be fun! If you didn't mind complicating things, you could even bring back something like strategy ratings and/or unlock strategic twists (like letting a unit outflank) based on how the mini-game goes.

I don't necessarily like my own ideas on this matter because it would slow things down, but they're fun to think about!

Some games let the side with more units on OK morale act first.Making suppression a powerful tactical tool !

And some games add bonuses to the roll off dice for holding objectives.

Others add the number of opposing units that are below half strength to your roll off score.

There are lots of factors you can use, if you want to include them.

Initiative of the Warlord?

Traditio wrote:
Initiative of the Warlord?

I guess Daemons and Eldar always go first then.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Initiative of the Warlord?

I guess Daemons and Eldar always go first then.

Fluffwise, does that not seem right, at least, with respect to Eldar?

With respect to the latter, it would be like complaining that ninjas get to strike first.

In point of fact, that would make Eldar even more broken, but that's not a complaint about my suggestion per se, but about the power level of Eldar in general.

Eldar are supposed to be highly mobile and fast. They're supposed to play like an army of ninjas. They're not supposed to be unstoppable behemoths.

Edit: Furthermore, my suggestion is not mutually exclusive to a roll to steal the initiative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, while we are on the subject, Tactical Spam, would you please explain to me why it makes sense that Imperial Guard or Orks should be able to get the drop on Eldar or Space Marines? Especially Imperial Guard: they are a massive, cumbersome, slow fighting force. Who are they going to catch by surprise?

Traditio wrote:

In fact, while we are on the subject, Tactical Spam, would you please explain to me why it makes sense that Imperial Guard or Orks should be able to get the drop on Eldar or Space Marines? Especially Imperial Guard: they are a massive, cumbersome, slow fighting force. Who are they going to catch by surprise?

Like any army, they are much more varied than that.

As a gruelling WW1 trenches and bayonet charges army, sure, IG seem slow and cumbersome.

As a rapid-assault army of elysian drop troopers jumping into the fight out of valkyries, I could totally see them getting the drop on anyone.

Arson Fire wrote:

Traditio wrote:

In fact, while we are on the subject, Tactical Spam, would you please explain to me why it makes sense that Imperial Guard or Orks should be able to get the drop on Eldar or Space Marines? Especially Imperial Guard: they are a massive, cumbersome, slow fighting force. Who are they going to catch by surprise?

Like any army, they are much more varied than that.

As a gruelling WW1 trenches and bayonet charges army, sure, IG seem slow and cumbersome.

As a rapid-assault army of elysian drop troopers jumping into the fight out of valkyries, I could totally see them getting the drop on anyone.

In that case, the question of who goes first is irrelevant. Valkyries start out in reserves, no?

Because their General/ Warboss caught you on the back foot? Or those haughty Eldar/ arrogant space mawines, complacent with their own superiority wandered into a well planned ambush?

* Orks are wild and unpredictable. You were counting on them to try and stomp through the seemingly defenseless bridge that you had actually booby trapped when they instead decided to push through your much better guarded canyon pass purely because there was more fighting to be done there. This is why Necron fluff talks about how frustrated what's his face gets when orks ruin his perfectly laid plans.

* Necrons have tons of experience and the benefit of super science to back up their millitary maneuvers. Is it not conceivable that Imhotek could outmaneuver Company Commander bob even though he swings his war scythe slower than the commander swings a power sword?

*Tzeentch is a master of plots, backstabs, and ambushes. Is it not conceivable that his forces could get the drop on Slaanesh's despite their speed?

Going first isn't really a representation of how physically agile you are. It's more a representation of getting a drop on your opponent or managing to gain the first push of momentum.

Eldar ARE known for their mobility and surprise attacks, but I think that would be better represented by an autarch being able to add a bonus to the first turn by virtue of his dedication to strategy or a farseer doing something by purchasing a piece of wargear called "Prophesied Battle" or something.

Eldar farseers are often distracted when walking past a shiny surface and accidentally catching a glimpse of their reflection, that's when Big Nob Butt Krusha strikes!

What about bringing back Strategy Rating?

Paper-Rock-Scissors.

 Happyjew wrote:
What about bringing back Strategy Rating?

I remember this.

Maybe that could be the bonus to the dice regarding going first perhaps?

Traditio wrote:
In fact, while we are on the subject, Tactical Spam, would you please explain to me why it makes sense that Imperial Guard or Orks should be able to get the drop on Eldar or Space Marines? Especially Imperial Guard: they are a massive, cumbersome, slow fighting force. Who are they going to catch by surprise?

Who is to say that attacking first has anything to do with getting the drop on someone? If an imperial guard line is set up, barricades erected, scouts on alert, who is to say that they won't get the first shot off? They're prepared for the attack, while an enemy army that is working its way toward their lines would have the disadvantage of having to press forward while the guard are already aiming their guns.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What about bringing back Strategy Rating?

I remember this.

Maybe that could be the bonus to the dice regarding going first perhaps?

Because Eldar desperately need a buff, poor things.

 r_squared wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
What about bringing back Strategy Rating?

I remember this.

Maybe that could be the bonus to the dice regarding going first perhaps?

Because Eldar desperately need a buff, poor things.

It wouldn't have to be an eldar boosting thing. Just have each warlord (or HQ?) have a strategy rating that acts as a bonus on the roll to see who goes first. Players only use the highest strategy rating in their army. An autarch,being dedicated to the path of command, might have a +3 while a Farseer would have something like a +1 or +2 with an option to buy wargear to improve this rating. A chaplain might only have a strategy rating of 1 as he isn't particularly strategy oriented (although he's still a space marine). A librarian might have a strategy rating of 2 due to their psychic foresight. A captain might be a strategy rating of 3 as the chapter's next battle plan presumably occupies a large part of his thought process. HQs that aren't actually all that strategically inclined (daemon heralds, maybe lord commissars, possibly ethereals) might have a strategy reading of 0.

Yes of course, because GW would definitely get that right every time, as they do with all other rules.
I can totally see Ghazkhull being allowed a strategy rating that beats any SM or Eldar.

Sorry, its a naff idea that would only serve to further buff the already highly buffed.

 r_squared wrote:
Yes of course, because GW would definitely get that right every time, as they do with all other rules.
I can totally see Ghazkhull being allowed a strategy rating that beats any SM or Eldar.

Sorry, its a naff idea that would only serve to further buff the already highly buffed.

Well, no one is saying this is necessarilya rule GW would be rolling out. My understanding was that this was more of a homebrew section of the forum implying it would be in the hands of one of us here on the forums and their fellow player base. I could also be just be a universal upgrade available to all players. "Your warlord may purchase up to X ranks in strategy rating for Y points per rating." Make it something like 5 points per rating, and you have a way of saying, "My character is known for being an extra brainy/ballsy commander!" that give you a minor boost to seize rolls. And again, why are you assuming it would specifically buff the "already buffed?"

Because Traditio mentioned Eldar and SMs as examples of armies that shouldn't have to go second to imperial guard or orks because of their superior gubbinz and whatnot.
It's not exactly rocket science to work out which 2 Mary sue forces would most likely benefit the most out if this.

If you want to homebrew another rule to make sure that Eldar and Mawines never go second to standard humies and orks, fill your boots.
Just watch as those armies just disappear, as people just give up even bothering playing with them, and 30k takes over.

 carldooley wrote:
I have a question; has anyone ever gamed alternate ways to choose who goes first? My idea, off the top of my head is, the army with fewer points goes first.
Suddenly, there is a reason not to fill every point of your army, and a psychological aspect to list building - how many points am I willing to pay to go first?

Of Course, if you have tied points, then you roll off as normal.

X-wing does this, and I certainly approve.

I'm also a fan of rolling off every turn to see who goes first that game turn. That's the one thing AoS added that I think is pretty neat.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I have a question; has anyone ever gamed alternate ways to choose who goes first? My idea, off the top of my head is, the army with fewer points goes first.
Suddenly, there is a reason not to fill every point of your army, and a psychological aspect to list building - how many points am I willing to pay to go first?

Of Course, if you have tied points, then you roll off as normal.

X-wing does this, and I certainly approve.

I'm also a fan of rolling off every turn to see who goes first that game turn. That's the one thing AoS added that I think is pretty neat.

To be fair, asymmetrical games are not the norm in x wing. The Imperial Player always goes first in most games.

I tried compiling a bunch of extra rules for asymmetrical games a while ago for a campaign and OPs idea was one of them. I never got very far with them because I just couldn't come up with enough ideas for the whole thing to just be more tacky house rules. I had been thinking more of a "Cities of Death/ Planetstrike" style expansion in terms of breadth.

The HH books have a bunch of alternate FOCs available. Off the top of my head, there's the one where you have a Compulsory LOW and a token support force, and a HS centric FOC and both of those have provisions where they always go second. We could attach Strategy Rating to the detachment type(s) so some detachments add to a warlord's rating.

 r_squared wrote:
Because Traditio mentioned Eldar and SMs as examples of armies that shouldn't have to go second to imperial guard or orks because of their superior gubbinz and whatnot.
It's not exactly rocket science to work out which 2 Mary sue forces would most likely benefit the most out if this.

If you want to homebrew another rule to make sure that Eldar and Mawines never go second to standard humies and orks, fill your boots.
Just watch as those armies just disappear, as people just give up even bothering playing with them, and 30k takes over.

Well, it sounds like you and I agree that it wouldn't be much fun for a "strategy rating" or whatever to favor one faction over another, so why not handle it in one of the ways I proposed? Rather than make it a biased advantage for marines or whatever, why not just let all factions have the option to pay X points per +1 bonus on the roll to see who goes first? Or even tie it to various units in each codex, though that gets messier and easier to imbalance.

If it was central rule, rather than faction based, then I would have no problem with it.
20 points for +1 on your seize the initiative, for example, would probably work.

 carldooley wrote:
I have a question; has anyone ever gamed alternate ways to choose who goes first? My idea, off the top of my head is, the army with fewer points goes first.
Suddenly, there is a reason not to fill every point of your army, and a psychological aspect to list building - how many points am I willing to pay to go first?

Of Course, if you have tied points, then you roll off as normal.

Would just encourage underpricing ones army even further.

Uh uh. I know what you're thinking. "Did he count six fists or only five?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track of my army points.

So I go first then?