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So, with the new Daemon formations brought in the Wulfen book, can you take a Murderhorde using the Daemonkin codex instead of the Daemon? So, if you take the formation, will your units be Fearless instead of instable, and have BftBG?

If it says it can be taken in a KDK force, then yes. If not, no. Simple stuff.

I would say no for the pure reason it is for Chaos Daemons specifically.

Yeah unfortunatly its only Faction Chaos Daemons.

I'm not so sure. The units in a Murderhorde can all be found in Codex: Khorne Daemonkin, and the Murderhorde doesn't have a Restriction listed that the units must have the Chaos Daemons Faction.

The icon at the top of the datasheet does give me pause, though. But nothing about that icon specifies that the Formation must be drawn from the Chaos Daemons Faction.

I feel like the intention is to be Chaos Daemons only, but I can't find anything in the rules go back this up. Happy to be proven wrong.

 Cheexsta wrote:
I'm not so sure. The units in a Murderhorde can all be found in Codex: Khorne Daemonkin, and the Murderhorde doesn't have a Restriction listed that the units must have the Chaos Daemons Faction.

The icon at the top of the datasheet does give me pause, though. But nothing about that icon specifies that the Formation must be drawn from the Chaos Daemons Faction.

I feel like the intention is to be Chaos Daemons only, but I can't find anything in the rules go back this up. Happy to be proven wrong.

The icon at the top shows what the unit's faction is. If the icon is the one from the Chaos Daemons codex then that is its Faction.

But it's not a unit; it's a Formation. The only rules I can find about those symbols are in reference to units.

And if you say that formations with a faction icon can only use units from that faction, you run into problems with formations that draw from multiple factions like the War Convocation or the KDK formations from Blood Oath.

 Cheexsta wrote:
But it's not a unit; it's a Formation. The only rules I can find about those symbols are in reference to units.

And if you say that formations with a faction icon can only use units from that faction, you run into problems with formations that draw from multiple factions like the War Convocation or the KDK formations from Blood Oath.

Can you show where the Faction icon on a Formation datasheet is not the same as for the unit datasheet.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
But it's not a unit; it's a Formation. The only rules I can find about those symbols are in reference to units.

And if you say that formations with a faction icon can only use units from that faction, you run into problems with formations that draw from multiple factions like the War Convocation or the KDK formations from Blood Oath.

Can you show where the Faction icon on a Formation datasheet is not the same as for the unit datasheet.

No, but can you show me where it is?

And if you can, can you show me where it says that a Formation's Faction determines the Faction that its included units must be?

Because if so, it renders half of the KDK Formations from the Blood Oath supplement unusable.

Edit: the closest I can find is the blurb on the page entitled "Datasheets" in the CotW book, which states that "each Chaos Daemons unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations...".

Which is very awkward wording (it implies that Formations are units), but it does seem to imply the intent that this is only for Chaos Daemons. But on the other hand, it's never explicitly stated as such.

The Mont'ka book only has formations in it, and as such the dataslate legend refers to that symbol representing the faction of the formation and not units..

 Cheexsta wrote:
No, but can you show me where it is?

Any datasheet legend. The only change Formations make is changing the definition of the Special Rules.

 Cheexsta wrote:
And if you can, can you show me where it says that a Formation's Faction determines the Faction that its included units must be?

How about this?

ARMY LIST ENTRIES IN DIFFERENT PUBLICATIONS
There are a few units whose Army List Entries are presented in more than one Games Workshop publication. Daemon Princes, for example, are presented in both Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Chaos Space Marines. In these instances, the unit’s Faction is determined by whichever codex it was chosen from. Be sure to keep track of which is which if you decide to take one from more than one source.

It wouldn't take much logic to approach it from the concept that the Faction of the Formation is the Faction you take units from (where possible) since it IS listed as "theirs".

It is a logic step and not a fully written statement, though.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
No, but can you show me where it is?

It wouldn't take much logic to approach it from the concept that the Faction of the Formation is the Faction you take units from (where possible) since it IS listed as "theirs".

It is a logic step and not a fully written statement, though.

And that's my point - we can infer that it probably is only for the Chaos Daemons Faction, but it is never stated.

And what about Formations that use units from multiple Factions? As I've already alluded to, many of the KDK ones from Blood Oath have Requirements for some of the units to have the Khorne Daemonkin Faction, but not other units (i.e. the ones not found in the KDK codex).

For example, the Fist of Khorne consists of a Khorne Berzerker squad (which must be KDK Faction), and a Kharybdis Assault Claw. No mention is made of the Kharybdis' required Faction, and the Formation's Datasheet has the KDK symbol...but the Kharybdis is only found with the CSM Faction. So, by your reasoning, you could never take the Fist of Khorne Faction since the units must be drawn from the KDK Faction, but the Kharybdis can't have the KDK Faction.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the RAI is probably that the Murderhorde should only consist of Chaos Daemons units, but I'm looking for a solid RAW ruling to say that the units can't come from the KDK Faction.

 Cheexsta wrote:
And that's my point - we can infer that it probably is only for the Chaos Daemons Faction, but it is never stated.

And what about Formations that use units from multiple Factions? As I've already alluded to, many of the KDK ones from Blood Oath have Requirements for some of the units to have the Khorne Daemonkin Faction, but not other units (i.e. the ones not found in the KDK codex).

For example, the Fist of Khorne consists of a Khorne Berzerker squad (which must be KDK Faction), and a Kharybdis Assault Claw. No mention is made of the Kharybdis' required Faction, and the Formation's Datasheet has the KDK symbol...but the Kharybdis is only found with the CSM Faction. So, by your reasoning, you could never take the Fist of Khorne Faction since the units must be drawn from the KDK Faction, but the Kharybdis can't have the KDK Faction.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the RAI is probably that the Murderhorde should only consist of Chaos Daemons units, but I'm looking for a solid RAW ruling to say that the units can't come from the KDK Faction.

Remember that I did add "(where possible)" to that statement. Remember also, that not all detachments require that all units be from the same Faction (just most).

In the case of the Kharybdis Assault Claw, does it have multiple Faction designations, or one? In the case of multiple, are one of them listed as the faction of the Formation?

Same in the case of Berzerker Squads, does it have multiple Faction designations, or one? In the case of multiple, are one of them listed as the faction of the Formation?

In the earlier point of the Formation that listed the Formations from Adeptus Mechanicus, Skitarii, and Imperial Knights, that one is made up of Formations which already have their own Factions dedicated, and so we review the point above and proceed.

Again, nothing fully defined in the rules, but the easiest way to play it and address it with minimal difficulties with others.

I think it's pretty hard to argue against RAI that the formations in Curse of the Wulfen are only for the Chaos Demon Faction. Khorne Demonkin is a separate thing. Otherwise you would be allowing the various Space Marine factions to use formation from each other's books (like say Grey Knights fielding a Librarius Conclave from Codex: Space Marines). Given that Formation Datasheets have a Faction Symbol on them, it's clearly RAI to be only used for that Faction.

Besides, Khorne Demonkin doesn't even have a "Herald of Khorne" unit. It has a unit called "Herald" but that is not listed as a required unit for the Murderhorde or Gorethunder Battery. And while Skulltaker is listed in both books, there's no mention of him counting as a "Herald of Chaos" in the Khorne Demonkin book which would mean the "Harbinger of Khorne" rule from the Murderhorde wouldn't apply to him.

KDK Heralds are Heralds of Khorne...

Skulltaker is an Herald of Khorne...

Saying they are not is rule finekin.

Also in the CotW book in the Murderhorde formation SKulltaker is simply refered to Skulltaker, in the Harbinger of Khorne rule it also only says "Heralds of khorne" no mention of Skulltaker.

So by what you're saying, even if you take Skulltaker from C:CD, he can't benefit from this rule?

Also you need mention of the Skulltaker been an Herald?, he has a Locust, thing only accesible to Heralds.

Saying Skulltaker is not an Herald of Khorne or an Herald not been an Herald of Khorne, is like saying Tigurius is not a librarian or Lysander not been a SM Captain.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
KDK Heralds are Heralds of Khorne...

Skulltaker is an Herald of Khorne...

Saying they are not is rule finekin.

Also in the CotW book in the Murderhorde formation SKulltaker is simply refered to Skulltaker, in the Harbinger of Khorne rule it also only says "Heralds of khorne" no mention of Skulltaker.

So by what you're saying, even if you take Skulltaker from C:CD, he can't benefit from this rule?

Also you need mention of the Skulltaker been an Herald?, he has a Locust, thing only accesible to Heralds.

Saying Skulltaker is not an Herald of Khorne or an Herald not been an Herald of Khorne, is like saying Tigurius is not a librarian or Lysander not been a SM Captain.

The Chaos Demon codex specifically lists Skulltaker as being one of the choices you can have as a Herald of Chaos, along with Karanak, Epidemius, The Changeling and the 4 generic Heralds. Khorne Demonkin doesn't have that wording, since 'Heralds of Chaos' aren't a thing in the Demonkin codex.

Yes, it might be rules nitpicking, but if you are trying to claim that Khorne Demonkin can use the Murderhorde formation then you are rules nitpicking in the first place.

Easy solution: take the Herald of Khorne from Codex: Chaos Daemons and everything else from KDK.

It won't have BFTBG, but it can join a squad that does for the rule's benefits (before anyone asks, Instability doesn't prevent this).

I think it's pretty hard to argue against RAI that the formations in Curse of the Wulfen are only for the Chaos Demon Faction. Khorne Demonkin is a separate thing. Otherwise you would be allowing the various Space Marine factions to use formation from each other's books (like say Grey Knights fielding a Librarius Conclave from Codex: Space Marines). Given that Formation Datasheets have a Faction Symbol on them, it's clearly RAI to be only used for that Faction.

Oh, I agree. I'm trying to find the RAW rule against it (if it even exists) as more of a thought exercise than anything.

And huh, I guess GKs do get a Conclave

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
KDK Heralds are Heralds of Khorne...

Skulltaker is an Herald of Khorne...

Saying they are not is rule finekin.

Also in the CotW book in the Murderhorde formation SKulltaker is simply refered to Skulltaker, in the Harbinger of Khorne rule it also only says "Heralds of khorne" no mention of Skulltaker.

So by what you're saying, even if you take Skulltaker from C:CD, he can't benefit from this rule?

Also you need mention of the Skulltaker been an Herald?, he has a Locust, thing only accesible to Heralds.

Saying Skulltaker is not an Herald of Khorne or an Herald not been an Herald of Khorne, is like saying Tigurius is not a librarian or Lysander not been a SM Captain.

The Chaos Demon codex specifically lists Skulltaker as being one of the choices you can have as a Herald of Chaos, along with Karanak, Epidemius, The Changeling and the 4 generic Heralds. Khorne Demonkin doesn't have that wording, since 'Heralds of Chaos' aren't a thing in the Demonkin codex.

Yes, it might be rules nitpicking, but if you are trying to claim that Khorne Demonkin can use the Murderhorde formation then you are rules nitpicking in the first place.

KDK doesn't need to list or specify that Skulltaker is and Herald of Khorne, or that an KDK Herald is an Herald of Khorne, since its a book about Khorne units only.

I hardly think that anyone expect to see an herald of Tzeentch or Nurgle in a book entierly dedicated to Khorne.

"This Herlad is not an Herald of Khorne..."
"Dude..., Its an Herald, in a book entirely made of units of Daemons of Khorne..., you try to tell me this could be an Herald of Slaanesh?"

It all steems down to the lazyness of the writters, because for them its Obvious that an Herald with the Daemon of Khorne rule, in a Book where there is only Khorne and that looks like a Bloodletter on steroids, cannot be anything else then an Herald of Khorne, so they simply went with "Herald", doesn't change the fact that it is an Herald of Khorne.

Same for Skulltaker, saying that he's not an Herald of Khorne,when its in his fluff, and he have the rules that other Heralds have is just bad sport.

Its like saying Kharn, Arhiman and Typhus cannot make Zerkers, Rubrics and Plague marines troops, because even though they have the rule for it, they arn't listed as Chaos Lords.

I have to agreed with some other posters here. The Faction symbol is very important. The Faction symbol for the Murderhorde is for Chaos Daemons, just as all the Faction symbols for the KDK formations are KDK.

Just because KDK uses units that "look" like ones in the CSM & CD books, doesn't mean that they are. All the units listed in KDK are Faction: KDK, therefore all their formations are Faction: KDK. I WISH I could take the Fearless KDK units for the Murderhorde, but alas it is not to be.
-----------------------------------
This same argument has been done with the Skyhammer Annihilation Force. The Faction symbol is Space Marine, meaning that Blood Angels and Dark Angels don't have access with the formation, despite having Assualt Marines, Devastators and Drop Pods.

--

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

KDK doesn't need to list or specify that Skulltaker is and Herald of Khorne, or that an KDK Herald is an Herald of Khorne, since its a book about Khorne units only.

I hardly think that anyone expect to see an herald of Tzeentch or Nurgle in a book entierly dedicated to Khorne.

"This Herlad is not an Herald of Khorne..."
"Dude..., Its an Herald, in a book entirely made of units of Daemons of Khorne..., you try to tell me this could be an Herald of Slaanesh?"

It all steems down to the lazyness of the writters, because for them its Obvious that an Herald with the Daemon of Khorne rule, in a Book where there is only Khorne and that looks like a Bloodletter on steroids, cannot be anything else then an Herald of Khorne, so they simply went with "Herald", doesn't change the fact that it is an Herald of Khorne.

Same for Skulltaker, saying that he's not an Herald of Khorne,when its in his fluff, and he have the rules that other Heralds have is just bad sport.

Its like saying Kharn, Arhiman and Typhus cannot make Zerkers, Rubrics and Plague marines troops, because even though they have the rule for it, they arn't listed as Chaos Lords.

It's not about being a Herald of Khorne specifically, it's about counting as a Herald of Chaos for the purposes of the rules in Codex: Chaos Demons that apply to Heralds of Chaos. Khorne Demonkin does not have those rules relating to Heralds of Chaos, because Khorne Demonkin doesn't have Heralds of Chaos. It has a unit called a Herald which does similar things, but its not the same. Skulltaker *does* count as a Herald of Chaos, but only from Codex: Chaos Demons because that's the only place where it actually matters that he's counted as a Herald of Chaos. And I have no idea what you mean by Kharn, Ahriman and Typhus... Their unit entries in Codex: Chaos Space Marines specifically say they make Bezerkers, Rubrics and Plague marines Troops. Just like Skulltaker is specifically listed as a Herald of Chaos in Codex: Chaos Demons.

Keep in mind that me pointing out that KDK does not have a unit called Herald of Khorne was in response to the question about Khorne Demonkin being able to use the Murderhorde Formation, despite the Murderhorde having the Chaos Demon faction symbol. Codex: Khorne Demonkin is not Codex: Chaos Demons, despite some similar units in both books. There is nothing 'bad sport' about it. A Herald and Skulltaker from Khorne Demonkin are not Chaos Demon Heralds of Chaos, because in Khorne Demonkin it doesn't matter