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I know the ghostkeel grants stealth to friendly units within 12" I think and grants shrouded to units which already have stealth. Can you double up on this to give them first stealth with one wing then give the now then stealthed unit shrouded from another wing - or do formation bonuses not stack?

Special Rules do not stack, unless otherwise stated. If you have two sources from the same special rule, it doesn't matter if they get to upgrade one status or not, you'd still be considered under the first effect.

If Stealth came from a different source, however, it would get promoted.

peirceg wrote:
I know the ghostkeel grants stealth to friendly units within 12" I think and grants shrouded to units which already have stealth. Can you double up on this to give them first stealth with one wing then give the now then stealthed unit shrouded from another wing - or do formation bonuses not stack?

Yes you can. Stealth and shrouded for all affected units

Delete

I'm with Charistoph. Specifically the rules say:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

Gaining Shrouded from the Network Stealth Field rule as a result of having Stealth from the Networked Stealth Gield rule would be gaining the benefit of the special rule more than once.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I'm with Charistoph. Specifically the rules say:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

Gaining Shrouded from the Network Stealth Field rule as a result of having Stealth from the Networked Stealth Gield rule would be gaining the benefit of the special rule more than once.

Just being devils advocate here, but technically, gaining Shrouded would not be the same benefit as gaining Stealth, and thus they should be allowed to stack

notredameguy10 wrote:
Just being devils advocate here, but technically, gaining Shrouded would not be the same benefit as gaining Stealth, and thus they should be allowed to stack

Irrespective of the benefit being either of two different special rules, the model would be gaining the benefit of Networked Stealth Field more than once, which is specifically disallowed.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Just being devils advocate here, but technically, gaining Shrouded would not be the same benefit as gaining Stealth, and thus they should be allowed to stack

And if we were just concerned with receiving different benefits from a special rule, we would be fine.

The rule is under Special Rules > A Compendium of Special Rules > last paragraph:

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.

So, basically, a Special Rule with the same name from different sources will not benefit twice unless the rules specifically states otherwise. But if two or more Special Rules with different names are providing the same benefits, then they can stack.

However, you are gaining a different benefit (albeit from the same special rule). I would agree that if you got stealth from both of them, obviously only one would apply. But one applies stealth and the other applies shrouded.

 luke1705 wrote:
However, you are gaining a different benefit (albeit from the same special rule). I would agree that if you got stealth from both of them, obviously only one would apply. But one applies stealth and the other applies shrouded.

Doesnt matter since the same special rule is giving out the benefits.

Stealth does not have permission to stack with itself, although it does have permission to stack with Shroud.

SJ

Fragile wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
However, you are gaining a different benefit (albeit from the same special rule). I would agree that if you got stealth from both of them, obviously only one would apply. But one applies stealth and the other applies shrouded.

Doesnt matter since the same special rule is giving out the benefits.

And that is the problem.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Stealth does not have permission to stack with itself, although it does have permission to stack with Shroud.

SJ

so? the rules state that stacking stealth twice = stealth + shrouded. (I agree in this case the rules do not stack)

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Stealth does not have permission to stack with itself, although it does have permission to stack with Shroud.

SJ

so? the rules state that stacking stealth twice = stealth + shrouded. (I agree in this case the rules do not stack)

Nope. Stealth + Stealth = Stealth. Stealth + Shrouded = Stealth + Shrouded. Unless you can cite otherwise.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Stealth does not have permission to stack with itself, although it does have permission to stack with Shroud.

SJ

so? the rules state that stacking stealth twice = stealth + shrouded. (I agree in this case the rules do not stack)

Nope. Stealth + Stealth = Stealth. Stealth + Shrouded = Stealth + Shrouded. Unless you can cite otherwise.

SJ

Are you familiar with what we are talking about ? Stealth + Stealth = Shrouded. Clear as day within the rule

Fragile wrote:
Are you familiar with what we are talking about ? Stealth + Stealth = Shrouded. Clear as day within the rule

That is not quite how it is phrased. It is not Stealth + Stealth, it is Stealth + X. X is Stealth if Stealth is not present. X is Shrouded if Stealth is present.

And more precisely, it is Ghostkeel Wing effect + Ghostkeel Wing effect = 1 Ghostkeel Wing effect.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Stealth does not have permission to stack with itself, although it does have permission to stack with Shroud.

SJ

so? the rules state that stacking stealth twice = stealth + shrouded. (I agree in this case the rules do not stack)

Nope. Stealth + Stealth = Stealth. Stealth + Shrouded = Stealth + Shrouded. Unless you can cite otherwise.

SJ

"which increases to shrouded for units that already have stealth"

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Are you familiar with what we are talking about ? Stealth + Stealth = Shrouded. Clear as day within the rule

That is not quite how it is phrased. It is not Stealth + Stealth, it is Stealth + X. X is Stealth if Stealth is not present. X is Shrouded if Stealth is present.

And more precisely, it is Ghostkeel Wing effect + Ghostkeel Wing effect = 1 Ghostkeel Wing effect.

If you want to explain it that way, thats fine. The question still remains as to why SJ thinks differently.

Also, what gives this to units within 12"?

I'm confused...where does it say that the Ghostkeel grants stealth to all units within 12'?

The Ghostkeel comes with the ghostkeel electrowarfare suite, which doubles the cover save bonus of stealth and/or shrouded -for this model- against attacks made at a range of greater than 12".

It has stealth drones, which have the "stealth field" rule. The stealth field grants stealth to models in a unit that has one or more stealth drones, and if a model in that unit has stealth already then it's converted into shrouded. Models that already have stealth and shrouded receive no additional benefit. Since the Ghostkeel has stealth, as long as the stealth drones are alive the Ghostkeel therefor has shrouded. When the drones die, the ghostkeel goes back to having stealth, instead.

I should also mention that stealth drones aren't on the drones list, the Ghostkeel is the only unit with those specific drones included in it's unit composition.

edit: Is the Ghostkeel Wing a WD formation or something? It's not in the new codex.

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:
I'm confused...where does it say that the Ghostkeel grants stealth to all units within 12'?

In the Ghostkeel Wing Formation.

edit: Is the Ghostkeel Wing a WD formation or something? It's not in the new codex.

Yeah, it's an "or something". It's in the Mont'ka campaign supplement. I'm unsure if it's in the Farsight Enclaves codex supplement though.

This is one of the cases where I fail to understand how an explicit rule cannot be followed.

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once.

That seems pretty straightforward to me. Is it not the same rule in question? There is nothing in Networked Stealth Field rule specifically stating that the rule can be applied multiple times.

Can we move on now?

The arguments of rules stacking does not even matter as the OP is mix and matching rules. Albeit probably not on purpose.

First, the only reason Ghostkeel receive shrouded is from their drones, not from any random source of stealth!



Second point, the Ghostkeel wing grants "stealth" to friendly units within 12", neato! But lets go through this..

A firewarrior is within 12" of a GKW Ghostkeel. This firewarrior unit would gain the stealth special rule. If this same firewarrior unit is near a 2nd GKW formation ghostkeel it would not gain another stealth stack because as stated above in the thread.

A Ghostkeel is within 12" of a GKW Ghostkeel. This Ghostkeel unit already has stealth (and shrouded if it has drones), so it does not gain an additional stealth stack as stated. What if it has no drones? Then the Ghostkeel would still not gain an additional stealth stack becuase it already has stealth! And, because it is the drone rule that grants shrouded, not the Ghostkeel itself, the unit would not also gain shrouded from being within the 12" bubble.


Hope that made sense... it really is pretty straight forward

 Grizzyzz wrote:


A Ghostkeel is within 12" of a GKW Ghostkeel. This Ghostkeel unit already has stealth (and shrouded if it has drones), so it does not gain an additional stealth stack as stated. What if it has no drones? Then the Ghostkeel would still not gain an additional stealth stack becuase it already has stealth! And, because it is the drone rule that grants shrouded, not the Ghostkeel itself, the unit would not also gain shrouded from being within the 12" bubble.

You were good until here. The Networked Stealth Field rule states that if the unit already has Stealth it gets Shrouded, therefore the Ghostkeel would get Shrouded since it comes with stealth.

Fragile wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


A Ghostkeel is within 12" of a GKW Ghostkeel. This Ghostkeel unit already has stealth (and shrouded if it has drones), so it does not gain an additional stealth stack as stated. What if it has no drones? Then the Ghostkeel would still not gain an additional stealth stack becuase it already has stealth! And, because it is the drone rule that grants shrouded, not the Ghostkeel itself, the unit would not also gain shrouded from being within the 12" bubble.

You were good until here. The Networked Stealth Field rule states that if the unit already has Stealth it gets Shrouded, therefore the Ghostkeel would get Shrouded since it comes with stealth.

That is the ghostkeel wing special rule right? My bad if that is the case, i need to read my rulebook again!!!! If that is true.. then you are correct, A ghostkeel WITHOUT drones would in fact gain Shrouded from a GKW Ghostkeel. However, it would then stand that if it is within a 2nd GKW formation it would not gain additional stacked benefits.

Cheers!

peirceg wrote:
I know the ghostkeel grants stealth to friendly units within 12" I think and grants shrouded to units which already have stealth. Can you double up on this to give them first stealth with one wing then give the now then stealthed unit shrouded from another wing - or do formation bonuses not stack?

1: The special rules do not stack.

2: Even if they did, in this case, how would you be finalging the timing to say, 'this Networked Stealth Field goes off first,' and gives them all stealth. Only then does the second Networked Stealth Field take effect, giving them shrouded.' There's no timing stack to work through sequentially, so the benefits would be applied simaltaneously.

 Bookwrack wrote:

peirceg wrote:
I know the ghostkeel grants stealth to friendly units within 12" I think and grants shrouded to units which already have stealth. Can you double up on this to give them first stealth with one wing then give the now then stealthed unit shrouded from another wing - or do formation bonuses not stack?

1: The special rules do not stack.

2: Even if they did, in this case, how would you be finalging the timing to say, 'this Networked Stealth Field goes off first,' and gives them all stealth. Only then does the second Networked Stealth Field take effect, giving them shrouded.' There's no timing stack to work through sequentially, so the benefits would be applied simaltaneously.

You can literally move into their area of effect, so there is actually an incredibly clearly defined timing, which is "when you are there"