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Help! I'm going mad!

So the rules for GS cults drop this Saturday in WD, as we all know every last inch of those pages have been leaked already but the one that's causing me a major headache is the allies rules which state:


Images are available online for this, but wasn't sure on posting as it hasn't officially been dropped yet.

Now, some are rejoicing saying that GSC will be Battle brothers with Tyranids. I want this to be so, but the way I'm reading this (and I may be very wrong) is:
They ally with other factions exactly as tyranids do. i.e. Come the Apocalypse.
GSC are another faction, Not a tyranid faction, despite what all the fluff says and the fact that they were part and parcel of the 2nd ed codex.

why is it gw have to act like the old hermit sat on the mountain who only speaks in metaphor?

so please prove me wrong, because frankly I want them as battle Brothers, even though this brings up more questions about the Patriarch and the hive tyrant relationship (it was a weekend fling in paris I heard)
Thanks
Pete







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn, sorry this is already being more than discussed in the DW:O rumour thread, I can't seem to delete this, Mods, could you do the honours?
thank you.
Pete

I read that as basically put GSC on the same square as Tyranids, much like every Imperial Army is on one square.

That's clearly GWs intent and reading it otherwise seems to me like a fishing.

I suspect that GW wants them to be Battle Brothers with Tyranids and Come the Apocalypse with everyone else...

BUT...

I read it the same as Melonfish. How do Tyranids ally? They are Come the Apocalypse with everyone other than themselves. If we say that Genestealer Cult allies the same as Tyranids, we would say that Genestealer Cult is Come the Apocalypse with everyone other than themselves. This would mean that Tyranids and Genestealer Cult aren't Battle Brothers.

HIWPI... I'm going to say they aren't Battle Brothers. Seriously... can you see a Hive Tyrant not ripping apart one of these Cultists? I definitely don't see them bro-fisting and running off to fight the enemy.

Then again, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are Battle Brothers and the Dark Angels recently began an orbital bombardment on Fenris. Battle Brothers seems to mean less than nothing these days.

The allying thing is not confusing. People are just bringing their extra baggage to it with the assumption that Tyranids couldn't ally with anyone (which is also not true).

If it had said "can ally like Space Marines" no one would care, because 12 armies already ally like Space Marines and everyone accepts what that means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I read that as basically put GSC on the same square as Tyranids, much like every Imperial Army is on one square.

There's really no other way to read it. This is the precedent.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The allying thing is not confusing. People are just bringing their extra baggage to it with the assumption that Tyranids couldn't ally with anyone (which is also not true).

If it had said "can ally like Space Marines" no one would care, because 12 armies already ally like Space Marines and everyone accepts what that means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I read that as basically put GSC on the same square as Tyranids, much like every Imperial Army is on one square.

There's really no other way to read it. This is the precedent.

It is ambiguous, and please don't refer to other people's interpretations as "their baggage" it's very disrespectful and not in the spirit of you make da call.
in the spirit of the army i'd say yes, but the wording is silly and needs clarification as taken on it's own indicates they can't.
anyway i've asked a mod to kill this, up to them if they do.

From that description, it sounds like they occupy the same space as the Tyranid square on the allies matrix. Although a useful short-hand is "Tyranids can ally with no one except themselves", that's just a short-hand; a simple "rule" that describes the much more complex matrix.

The Matrix says: "If FACTION 1, then FACTION 2 is ALLY-TYPE"

When Tyranids look at most other factions, this reads: "If TYRANIDS then IMPERIAL ARMY is COME THE APOCALYPSE."

When Tyranids look at themselves though, this reads: "If TYRANIDS then TYRANIDS is BATTLE BROTHERS."

If Genestealer cults have the exact same allies matrix, then whenevever we look at FACTION 1 as Genestealer Cult, we are given the option to sub in the rest as if they were Tyranids. This gives us: "If GENESTEALER CULT then TYRANIDS is BATTLE BROTHERS."

This also allows Faction 1 to be Tyranids, or for both Faction 1 and Faction 2 to be Genestealer Cult.

Genestealer Cults are prepping their world for the Hive Fleet invasion. Why wouldn't they be allied when the fleet arrives? From a fluff standpoint, I definitely agree with DarknessEternal. From a RAW standpoint, I also agree that you simply put GCS in the same box on the ally matrix as Tyranids, meaning they are Battle Brothers with Tyranids.

 Melonfish wrote:

It is ambiguous, and please don't refer to other people's interpretations as "their baggage" it's very disrespectful and not in the spirit of you make da call.

Except, it's 100% accurate. Do you know how often people on this very forum have said "Tyranids can't ally with anyone"? It's a lot. People make short-hand summary statements that aren't accurate, and it gets repeated often enough that it gets accepted as a fact.

Tyranids can ally with everyone, and everyone can ally with Tyranids.

 Kriswall wrote:
How do Tyranids ally? They are Come the Apocalypse with everyone other than themselves.

This is the short hand of it when not using the Matrix, but to tack on a further explanation, the GSC would be looking at Tyranids the same way Tyranids look at Tyranids.

This is not 6th Edition where a Faction allying with itself is not addressed, every Faction listed on the rulebook Ally Matrix considers itself a Battle Brother. So Genestealer Cults would see Tyranids as Battle Brothers.

To look at it any other way is to be ignoring the Matrix which sets down the main Factions.

-

I read it as they and nids are basically treated exactly like the Imperium Of Man; i.e: A different faction for army building, but the same faction for allies.

Hopefully the rumors are true and both factions are getting a codex later this year. That should clear it up nicely.

Tyranids really need a consolidation. With out even getting into them getting their units reworked, they are spread between what three, four books?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Tyranids really need a consolidation. With out even getting into them getting their units reworked, they are spread between what three, four books?

5, I think. Codex, 3 Leviathan formation books, and Campaign Baal.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Tyranids really need a consolidation. With out even getting into them getting their units reworked, they are spread between what three, four books?

Yeah, and some of the newer books currently have outdated rules. I bought the recent Gamer Edition, thinking that I would get all the various datasheets. Nope. The Gamers Edition still has outdated datasheets that were replaced when recent units like the Neurothrope came out. I was pretty disgusted to learn that a NEW publication was incomplete AND had out of date rules.

Buyer beware, I guess.

GSC ally exactly like Tyranids, and Tyranids are Battle Brothers with Tyranids. Therefore, GSC are Battle Brothers with Tyranids. Easy.

Imho GSC are Battle Brothers with Tyranids.

In GW words via Warhammer App - found and posted by Riot Earp on GW-Fanworld.de