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To be honest, I can handle a lot of stuff, Gargantuan Creatures, FMCs Superheavies and the lot don't bother me as much as other people seem to be bothered. FW handled LOWs well with the 25% rule and I think that's all it needed. But flyers as GW has handled them just baffle me. It just mutes the interaction between huge sections of the game. It's like infantry and vehicles and the like are playing one game and flyers are playing another. It kills me.

Here's how I would do it:

Aerial: Replacement for Hard to Hit. Ranged Weapons with a range shorter than 36" cannot fire at Flyers.

Skyfire: weapons with this rule ignore the range limit from the Aerial rule, but suffer -2 BS when targeting non- flyers.

Flyers have the Aerial rule and choose between having skyfire or not at the beginning of each shooting phase. Flyers can never benefit from cover.

I'd like to hear other peoples' thoughts on this.

Not benefiting from cover removes flyers ability to Jink. Which belongs with flyers more than anything else.

Range less than 36" cripples some armies abilities to deal with flyers. Not surprisingly the people effected the most are the armies with the least amount of skyfire. Necrons and Nids.

Both have no skyfire weapons native to their codex and both have few if any weapons that are not blast that can fire 36"+

I like the idea of a blanket -2BS to a minimum of 1 instead of all snap shots as it is now. Skyfire would ignore the BS penalty.

I agreed with Flyer cannot get cover, but only covers granted by elements. Jink has to stay.

And most of all, FMC shall not have cover save by elements, that is ridiculus

Lance845 wrote:
Not benefiting from cover removes flyers ability to Jink. Which belongs with flyers more than anything else.

Range less than 36" cripples some armies abilities to deal with flyers. Not surprisingly the people effected the most are the armies with the least amount of skyfire. Necrons and Nids.

Both have no skyfire weapons native to their codex and both have few if any weapons that are not blast that can fire 36"+

I like the idea of a blanket -2BS to a minimum of 1 instead of all snap shots as it is now. Skyfire would ignore the BS penalty.

With these rules, blasts would be able to fire at flyers, so that's less of a problem, but might still be a problem.

You got me with jink. What if they could only get cover saves from jink?

 Powerfisting wrote:
To be honest, I can handle a lot of stuff, Gargantuan Creatures, FMCs Superheavies

FMCs use the same rules as flyers.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:
To be honest, I can handle a lot of stuff, Gargantuan Creatures, FMCs Superheavies

FMCs use the same rules as flyers.

I'm aware, but if the rules for flyers weren't so crazy, FMCs wouldn't be that bad. Flyers existing doesn't bother me and the existence of FMCs doesn't bother me; it's the handling of the base rules for flyers that gets me.

I would like to have a rule that interacts with the whole true line of sight issue.

Flyers in skimmer mode & monsters in jump mode.
- > Use true line of sight.

Flyers and monsters in fly mode.
-> Assume that the monster is x " higher up in the air then it actually is.

This fixes all the issues I have with them.

If your playing with tall enough buildings to block the actual body of a flyer I'm fine with it getting cover.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would like to have a rule that interacts with the whole true line of sight issue.

Flyers in skimmer mode & monsters in jump mode.
- > Use true line of sight.

Flyers and monsters in fly mode.
-> Assume that the monster is x " higher up in the air then it actually is.

This fixes all the issues I have with them.

I hadn't thought of this. Its a good idea, but "assume the model is X" higher would be hard to implement. Perhaps my version of Aerial would only take effect if they are in flying mode? I had been trying to do away with flight modes to be honest, but this seems reasonable.

Not sure if I'm in the minority but I like the way flyers work. The whole "supposed to be flying hundreds of feet in the air but I can't see them because they're obscured by a 2-story ruin" thing is weird considering the rules interactions, but that's more of a suspension of disbelief thing to me.

I'd prefer to keep the current rules for them and give every army some skyfire/anti-air capabilities.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

I'd prefer to keep the current rules for them and give every army some skyfire/anti-air capabilities.

Agreed. But, also, every army does have some form of AA.

Necrons - Cheap Flying Transports/Heavy Support
Tyranids - FMCs, one with AA Haywire missiles and S8 Vector Strike
Daemons - FMCs
Orks - 3 Flyer variants, and a Tractor Cannon
Eldar - Best AA flyer in the game, Eldar Missile Launcher
Tau - Duh
Space Marines - 2 Really good flyers, Flak Missiles
Dark Eldar - 2 Flyers with Lances (One of which is S9)
Harlequins - Hardly an army by themselves, are meant to be allied with Eldar, thus they have Eldar's options
Astra Militarum - 2 Pretty good Flyers, one of which has 3 twin-linked Lascannons
Chaos Space Marines - One of their only semi good units is a decent AA Flyer
Space wolves - 2 Good Flyers
Dark Angels - Decent Flyers
Grey Knights - Same Flyer as Space Marines
Admech - They have AA gun options


Seriously, Flyers are old news, and the fact that people still have issues with them is ridiculous. Every army has a way to deal with them, one way or another. We have bigger issues in this game, such as how DE deal with Wraithknights, or how most armies deal with IK armies, ext. GCs, SHVs, and general power imbalance are more of an issue than something that people lost their gak over from 6th edition.

Most armies can deal with flyers the same way as they can deal with anything else. Just throw a bunch of dice at it until it breaks. Proposing making range <36" not able to target flyers at all just makes it even worse for existing armies like Necrons, who can double tap 20+ shots from Gauss Warriors and have a chance at glancing, as opposed to being able to do absolute 0.

That >36" rule literally makes it impossible for Harlequins to even hit flyers. No skyfire, and the longest weapon range they have is 24".

I would treat flyers as close support for the rest of the army.

Roll for each turn reserves as normal flyer enters at the start each of your turns and leaves at the end of your turn.

Give everyone more options for skyfire and interceptor.

If the enemy has a flyer they can roll when the opposing flyer enters the battle field to engage in a dogfight. Where both flyers pass each other and fire weapons available at each other. (Same time) I don't see a flyer engaging ground targets when there is air support around.

Makes flyers able to engage with other flyer more easily and I think it would be interesting. With transport flyers have them drop off when not engaged with another flyer

a limit on the number that can be in an army outside of terror from the skies. flying hive tyrant spam needs to be reigned in. i propose a 2 flying model limit to any army regardless of config or it being a result of an upgrade. and summoned units count

this also permanently kills daemon flying circus


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

I'd prefer to keep the current rules for them and give every army some skyfire/anti-air capabilities.

Agreed. But, also, every army does have some form of AA.

Necrons - Cheap Flying Transports/Heavy Support
Tyranids - FMCs, one with AA Haywire missiles and S8 Vector Strike
Daemons - FMCs
Orks - 3 Flyer variants, and a Tractor Cannon
Eldar - Best AA flyer in the game, Eldar Missile Launcher
Tau - Duh
Space Marines - 2 Really good flyers, Flak Missiles
Dark Eldar - 2 Flyers with Lances (One of which is S9)
Harlequins - Hardly an army by themselves, are meant to be allied with Eldar, thus they have Eldar's options
Astra Militarum - 2 Pretty good Flyers, one of which has 3 twin-linked Lascannons
Chaos Space Marines - One of their only semi good units is a decent AA Flyer
Space wolves - 2 Good Flyers
Dark Angels - Decent Flyers
Grey Knights - Same Flyer as Space Marines
Admech - They have AA gun options


Seriously, Flyers are old news, and the fact that people still have issues with them is ridiculous. Every army has a way to deal with them, one way or another. We have bigger issues in this game, such as how DE deal with Wraithknights, or how most armies deal with IK armies, ext. GCs, SHVs, and general power imbalance are more of an issue than something that people lost their gak over from 6th edition.

lol no we have A decent flyer, uno and we have no good answers to anti-air the nephilim is a hopeless failure of a flying crate

 ionusx wrote:
a limit on the number that can be in an army outside of terror from the skies. flying hive tyrant spam needs to be reigned in. i propose a 2 flying model limit to any army regardless of config or it being a result of an upgrade. and summoned units count

this also permanently kills daemon flying circus

So you want to not only effectively kill off Tyranids, but you want to disallow me to take my main for of transportation for my army. Cool, I can get behind that.

/sarcasm

For real, flyers are not the issue guys. I have never once played a game, not once, where someone complained about flyers.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Orks - 3 Flyer variants, and a Tractor Cannon
.

I would love to see you shooting down a Necron or Imperial flier with any of the ork fliers.
Or if you are really feeling lucky with the Blitza bommer. You will have a S5 gun and a S6 gun have fun with it : P


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

/sarcasm
For real, flyers are not the issue guys. I have never once played a game, not once, where someone complained about flyers.

So you play necrons right...
Are you sure your sacrsm terminator wasn't misplaced

 ionusx wrote:
a limit on the number that can be in an army outside of terror from the skies. flying hive tyrant spam needs to be reigned in. i propose a 2 flying model limit to any army regardless of config or it being a result of an upgrade. and summoned units count

this also permanently kills daemon flying circus

Hahaha....

No.

 oldzoggy wrote:

I would love to see you shooting down a Necron or Imperial flier with any of the ork fliers.
Or if you are really feeling lucky with the Blitza bommer. You will have a S5 gun and a S6 gun have fun with it : P

Sure, just like how I shoot down Stormravens with Night Scythes. S6 hurts my flyers on a 5+, same as my Tesla Destructor against a Stormraven.

So you play necrons right...
Are you sure your sacrsm terminator wasn't misplaced

I am sure. I've played lists with 3+ flyers, and they don't ever make or break the game.

I think flyers are generally fine.

Swooping FMCs are a problem, though. Most aren't on flying stands, and many aren't very big, so you can conceivably have things like a flying demon prince out of LOS behind, say, a monolith.

Also, FMCs have the cover cheese, where again, they're up in the air, but also in ground-based cover and have area terrain saves. Again, nonsensical.

A note on cover saves: If a building is pretty tall, and obscures a flyer/FMC, I think cover is fair. But claiming a cover save on an airborne unit from, say, a pile of rubble, is rubbish.

Lastly, I think that FMCs in swoop mode should be limited in their firing arcs just like flying vehicles. Being able to fly and shoot 360 take any and all tactical considerations out of using flyers, and you just have an overpowered, rule-abusing unit. For example, hive tyrant flies over a battlewagon and shoots the rear armor.

It's unfair, compared to other flyers, and is unreasonable in terms of being physically possible. A gliding FMC can fire as normal, but swooping should have some restrictions - again, like other flyers.

I also think that skyfire units should be able to pick between firing at flying units or ground based ones - it's hard to justify bringing a unit in an all-comers list that is useless unless your opponent brings flyers.

I wonder how blasts v. flyers would work. It would kind of make sense, as explosions could conceivably damage flying units. Maybe allow firing as normal, but no reduction in scatter distance, and it always scatters (in direction of thick black line on a direct hit symbol). But even with those restrictions, things like battle cannons would still be absolutely fantastic at bringing down things like dakkajets - it's not too hard to clip a large-sized flyer with a large blast, even with no scatter reductions. Maybe also include that the blast only hits if the hole in the center of the blast templates is over the hull of the vehicle - otherwise, the shot passes by and misses.

I really think MCs in general should claim cover like vehicles do - it would solve a lot of the complaints about them without nerfing them to uselessness.

jade_angel wrote:
I really think MCs in general should claim cover like vehicles do - it would solve a lot of the complaints about them without nerfing them to uselessness.

GMCs and 2+ armor MCs would still be unfair models.

Good thing barely any of those exist in the game, huh?

But wait, I know you're going to come back and say the rest don't count because you never see them, to which I say why do they also need to get nerfed to oblivion just because you hate Riptides.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Good thing barely any of those exist in the game, huh?

But wait, I know you're going to come back and say the rest don't count because you never see them, to which I say why do they also need to get nerfed to oblivion just because you hate Riptides.

I frequently see all GMCs and 2+ armor MCs. 3+ armor MCs would still be tough as nails with a cover change.

Good for you. Just because your opponents always bring Riptides, DKs and WKs doesn't mean Carnifexs, Keepers of Secrets, foot DPs and the rest don't exist.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Good for you. Just because your opponents always bring Riptides, DKs and WKs doesn't mean Carnifexs, Keepers of Secrets, foot DPs and the rest don't exist.

Those other units still benefit greatly from being MCs, though.

Well, sure they do. What rules should all MCs lose to make them balanced, though?

Fear? Marines care not a bit. Smash? Well, that's a pretty strong one, but on the other hand, Tyranid MCs are mostly worthless in melee without it. Move Through Cover? Relentless? The ability to fire two weapons?

Make anti-tank weapons cause multiple wounds. Get rid of free ap2 melee hits for models like exocrine and riptide. Like walkers, mcs should have to have melee upgrades for ap2. I want mcs to have to at least pretend to care what's in my list. Lascannon? Melta? Lol, one wound bro, and now I assault and stomp all your marines for free. Isn't this fun?

Martel732 wrote:
Make anti-tank weapons cause multiple wounds. Get rid of free ap2 melee hits for models like exocrine and riptide. Like walkers, mcs should have to have melee upgrades for ap2. I want mcs to have to at least pretend to care what's in my list. Lascannon? Melta? Lol, one wound bro, and now I assault and stomp all your marines for free. Isn't this fun?

Or we could give Walkers Smash.

So more things can stomp through 2+ armor for free? 2+ armor is already only useful on MCs and ICs, so why don't we just ruin 2+ infantry a little more? Granted, your average walker has 1/3 or less of the durability of an MC, but still.