Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Purely a thought experiment but if the Traitors had not had reinforcements on Ist could the loyalists have beaten Horus' forces?
I.e. 3 vs 4?
Or were the traitors too dug in with Horus still to enter the field with his main reserves?
I do recall as the Loyalists fell back they were exhausted and needing to regroup before they were cut down by the other 4 traitor legions.
Any thoughts?

I think that the combination of planning, numbers and surprise would have seen the traitors win with or without reserves.

I don't think the loyalists stood a chance, they would have held out longer and the traitors would have taken further losses, but still not enough.

I think that the combination of planning, numbers and surprise would have seen the traitors win with or without reserves.

But leaving aside the surprise element of the other 4 traitor legions would the loyalists have stood a chance then?

Impossible to say. The traitors formed their lines and played out the battle on the basis that the second wave was on their side. If there was no second wave they likely would have used a very different strategy, so who knows what the battle would have looked like then.

I think the question is dependent on the status of the second wave.

If the second wave participated in the battle as Loyalist forces, then the Loyalists would have steamrollered the traitors, even with Horus's defences. With the Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Word Bearers assaulting the front, they alone would have tied up the 4 Traitor Legions. Add to that, the flanking tactics of a combined Raven guard, Alpha Legion and Night Lord manoeuver then I reckon their fate would be sealed. The more so as the Imperial Fists were also en route to the Isstvan System.

However, if the second wave had simply not been present (ie. Just the Iron hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard) then it would have been a much tougher battle. Three Legions, two of them on the smaller side and the other only a fragment of the full legion, dropping into low ground with little cover and then assaulting 4 numerically superior legions in a heavily entrenched position isn't going to be pretty anyway you look at it. That said, most of the fluff I've read assert that the first wave was making headway prior to the second wave betrayal. Ferrus Manus in particularly was driving hard into the ranks of the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus. I suspect that had he heeded Corax and Vulkan and withdrawn with them to marshal his forces (Of course we're assuming that the DZ is 'safe' in these circumstances) , then the Loyalists may have ended up winning. Trouble is, it's always a toss-up between surrendering momentum in exchange for resupply - as soon as you lose momentum, it gives the enemy time to regroup, but you can't keep going forever without resupply.

If it were me in this scenario, I would have cycled the Legions, using 2 Legions to pin the Traitors and draw them out into the open (In particular using the WE's mentality against themselves) whilst the other resupplied and launch fresh assaults into the traitors.

However, if the second wave had simply not been present (ie. Just the Iron hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard) then it would have been a much tougher battle. Three Legions, two of them on the smaller side and the other only a fragment of the full legion, dropping into low ground with little cover and then assaulting 4 numerically superior legions in a heavily entrenched position isn't going to be pretty anyway you look at it. That said, most of the fluff I've read assert that the first wave was making headway prior to the second wave betrayal. Ferrus Manus in particularly was driving hard into the ranks of the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus. I suspect that had he heeded Corax and Vulkan and withdrawn with them to marshal his forces (Of course we're assuming that the DZ is 'safe' in these circumstances) , then the Loyalists may have ended up winning. Trouble is, it's always a toss-up between surrendering momentum in exchange for resupply - as soon as you lose momentum, it gives the enemy time to regroup, but you can't keep going forever without resupply.

Excellent points WP and basically, without coloring the thread, what I was thinking.

Loyalist choices (with out traitor legion reinforcements):

Keep pushing through - Ferrus' choice
Regroup and evaluate - Corax and Vulkan
A mix of all 3 attack
All 3 regroup and evaluate
All three keep pushing forward
All 3 guerilla war ala Corax

Fascinating

 Ratius wrote:


Excellent points WP and basically, without coloring the thread, what I was thinking.

Loyalist choices (with out traitor legion reinforcements):

Keep pushing through - Ferrus' choice
Regroup and evaluate - Corax and Vulkan
A mix of all 3 attack
All 3 regroup and evaluate
All three keep pushing forward
All 3 guerilla war ala Corax

Fascinating

A little OT, but in the spirit of the discussion, if I were to evaluate the options this is the way I'd be thinking:

To start with I think a Guerrilla War would be off the table. First; Corax's 93 Day stint only worked because the traitors were out of a static position, hence he could strike and fade against their columns well enough. But it's hard to strike and fade against entrenched positions with clear fields of fire manned to the brim with like-minded warriors. Secondly; The Loyalist strike force wasn't geared toward a protracted guerilla war. Alongside the Salamanders and Iron Hands, even the Raven Guard deployed armour - which would be of limited use in a stealthy conflict. Finally, it was only really the Iron Hands elite Avernii Clan that deployed - almost entirely composed of Armour, Dreadnoughts and TDA (Other elements joined later on, but for the most part it was the Avernii) - again, TDA is relatively useless if stealth is the MO.

A methodical approach is always more appealing to me than simply throwing men and munitions at things as Ferrus Manus did, however he was blinded by rage at Fulgrim's betrayal. Nevertheless, throwing men into a meat-grinder is rarely the best option in an assault, so IMHO I would discount the first two options (The 'assault regardless' options) as that's pretty much what did happen and it cost the Loyalists dearly. My vote would be for a regroup of all 3, resupply, an assessment of identified weakspots/defensive patterns from the first assault and a renewed assault. Of course, everything is dependent of the fleet action being fought above Isstvan V, because whoever wins that could call in orbital strikes at will.

Specifcally discounting Fleet actions
I know, I know, too hard a rule but otherwise we could hypotesise multiple fleets coming in (AL, SW, DA, etc).

Ground based only

My gut feeling is: Horus would have taken the field late battle with his reserves and wiped out (mostly) the Loyalists.
He was technically unstoppable at that point + held reserves for a potential counter assault.
I do hope the LL had have won but I think without legions like the SWs, BAs and DAs it was a lost fight :(
:(

Loyalty to the Salamanders would have me say that they'd alsways win! .Buuuut, common sense says that they would have lost. Even with Ferrus cutting a swathe through the EC, Corax hitting the Sons of Horus everywhere and the Salamanders ripping into the Death Guard that still leaves the world Eaters free to isolate and pick off each of the Loyalist Legions. Not to mention that each Loyalist Legion was many time smaller than the Triators. The Salamanders deployed around 93,000 Legionarys to Isstvan V. The Sons of Horus alone numbered around 170,000 after the Isstvan II purge. A forgone conclusion I reckon.

Hmmm, figures correct? SoH were 170k strong at their outset but not all at Ist?
Where does 93k Sallies come from on Ist?? (I have all 6HH books - just asking ?)

Betrayal puts the Sons of Horus at an estimated 130k-170k *before* the purge and an estimated 70k-110k after, before Isstvan V.

Massacre puts the estimated Salamanders on Isstvan V at 83k.

I may be wrong on the sons of Horus - I was working on the basis that I'd read 190,000 all told and the Loyalist forces on Isstvan III came to circa 100,000 - so roughly 20,000 - 25,000 were sent down and betrayed by each legion on Isstvan III. Works out at 170,000 to 165,000 Sons of Horus left. However, if they didn't deploy in full force then my figure will be way out.

Ahh I've got the numbers the wrong way around! Sorry. Salamanders were 89,000 (not 98,000) all told, of which 83,000 were deployed to Isstvan V - of which 98% of those were killed. All that according to HH Book 2: Massacre, page 121.

Fascinating so a 1-1 or 1-1.25 ratio?

The loyalists would not have been able to win without the second wave legions. If they had not been neccessary, the Imperium would have never sent so many extra legions.
Standard military tactics dictate that an attacker should always have at least a 3:1 advantage when assaulting a fortified position.
Assaulting a fortified position manned by equally well-equipped and experienced soldiers while outnumbered is pretty much suicide.

It is not for nothing that Corax and Vulkan wanted to retreat so badly that they even abandoned Ferrus. Their assault had lost its initial momentum, bogged down by the traitor's fortifications and sheer numbers. And when the traitors launched a counter attack they were getting mauled really badly (There is a fluff piece in Massacre that has details about this. It is the story of a Raven Guard veteran who took part in the initial assault and was one of the only survivors to make it back to the dropzone with the Primarchs). They weren't just planning to resupply, they were planning to withdraw from the fight almost entirely and leave it to the Second Wave because of the casualties they suffered.

And that was even though the traitors were keeping most of their forces back until the arrival of the Second Wave.

It should also be noted that the Legions were not the only forces at Isstvan. The initial success of the First Wave assault was for a large part due to the huge numbers of Imperial Army and superheavy weapons deployed with them.

Didn't the traitors have allied traitor imperial army elements as well?

This brings me to something I've never understood logic wise other than to make a better story of it, but why wouldn't the loyalists virus bomb the planet first? That's the imperial army elements dealt with, and a lot of the traitor marines as well. At that point the loyalists could ascertain void supremacy and well, even if the traitors retreated underground, they would in effect be imprisoned on the planet as any time they open the hatches, they could get lanced to hell by the fleet.

Space marines and their honour, should have been more ruthless in their application of force, even with the traitor reserves arriving, I can't imagine the salamanders and iron hands fleets would be anything to be trifled with, even by 4 other legions.

It's also always bothered me that they didn't see the deception in Horus making a stand on a planet with his allies. He would be safer being mobile within his fleet, a planet is backing yourself into a corner.

The battle would have been vastly different. Both sides were operating under the idea that the WB, NL, AL and IW were on their side, that's why Manus felt he could power ahead because he thought 4 more legions would be backing him up. Whatever way you spin it, the war would have looked vastly different

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

This brings me to something I've never understood logic wise other than to make a better story of it, but why wouldn't the loyalists virus bomb the planet first? That's the imperial army elements dealt with, and a lot of the traitor marines as well. At that point the loyalists could ascertain void supremacy and well, even if the traitors retreated underground, they would in effect be imprisoned on the planet as any time they open the hatches, they could get lanced to hell by the fleet.

I guess that this would be due to Ferrus wanting to search out Fulgrim and take him on one to one. Perhaps they also wanted to capture Horus alive and take him back to Terra for trial or something?

An equal amount of Legions could have been sent to take on the traitors but I would imagine they sent seven Legions was to ensure victory and that the traitors were crushed entirely with minimal casualties on the loyalist side. An Astartes vs Astartes war is something that I would imagine the Emperor would have wanted to end quickly rather than have drag out on an equal playing field.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Didn't the traitors have allied traitor imperial army elements as well?

This brings me to something I've never understood logic wise other than to make a better story of it, but why wouldn't the loyalists virus bomb the planet first? That's the imperial army elements dealt with, and a lot of the traitor marines as well. At that point the loyalists could ascertain void supremacy and well, even if the traitors retreated underground, they would in effect be imprisoned on the planet as any time they open the hatches, they could get lanced to hell by the fleet.

Space marines and their honour, should have been more ruthless in their application of force, even with the traitor reserves arriving, I can't imagine the salamanders and iron hands fleets would be anything to be trifled with, even by 4 other legions.

It's also always bothered me that they didn't see the deception in Horus making a stand on a planet with his allies. He would be safer being mobile within his fleet, a planet is backing yourself into a corner.

Virus bombs were forbidden, only the Emperor and Warmaster could authorise their use. They are the equivilent of using mustard gas and pther chemical weapons (they are technically); prohibited by the 40k Geneva convention.

 Deadshot wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Didn't the traitors have allied traitor imperial army elements as well?

This brings me to something I've never understood logic wise other than to make a better story of it, but why wouldn't the loyalists virus bomb the planet first? That's the imperial army elements dealt with, and a lot of the traitor marines as well. At that point the loyalists could ascertain void supremacy and well, even if the traitors retreated underground, they would in effect be imprisoned on the planet as any time they open the hatches, they could get lanced to hell by the fleet.

Space marines and their honour, should have been more ruthless in their application of force, even with the traitor reserves arriving, I can't imagine the salamanders and iron hands fleets would be anything to be trifled with, even by 4 other legions.

It's also always bothered me that they didn't see the deception in Horus making a stand on a planet with his allies. He would be safer being mobile within his fleet, a planet is backing yourself into a corner.

Virus bombs were forbidden, only the Emperor and Warmaster could authorise their use. They are the equivilent of using mustard gas and pther chemical weapons (they are technically); prohibited by the 40k Geneva convention.

It is also really hard if not impossible to virus bomb a planet if your ships are under attack by an enemy fleet. The traitor fleets were more numerous, so the loyalist fleet had better things to worry about than bombing planets.
As to why they didn't see Horus' deception, that is easy. At the time, the full depth of Horus' treason was not yet revealed. The loyalists were sent to fetch Horus and his buddies and bring them to the Emperor so they could answer for their actions on Isstvan III, they had not expected Horus to be planning an Imperium-wide civil war to overthrow the Emperor. They also had no reasons to doubt the loyalty of the Second Wave legions at all. Especially the Word Bearers or Iron Warriors, who had been renowned for their staunch loyalty. Horus making a stand in the most defensible spot available is not strange. There is no way he could have taken on the Imperium with 4 Legions, and if he would run, he would be caught sooner or later. Making a stand and seeking the confrontation is the best alternative to prove whatever point Horus wanted to make. It is a common tactic used by rebels or political groups in real life as well.

that's why Manus felt he could power ahead because he thought 4 more legions would be backing him up. Whatever way you spin it, the war would have looked vastly different

Good point DS.