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Hello people,

Along with the new Dracothian Guard, we have had new rules come along with them.

The Fulminators and Tempestors have a rule called Lightning Surge. It is a missile weapom which varies depending on how close you are to your opponent. So instead of wounding normally, he just does a mortal wound at 6" away, and 2 if they're 3". Now the problem lies with this second section. You cannot be within 3" of an enemy model without being in CC.

So i believe that if GW truly didnt want people shooting in combat, they wouldnt have made these kind of rules.

If GW didn't want to have shooting in and out of combat, they would have made a rule against it in the main rules.

Yes, but many people may have put that down to the rules being complete gak. This thread is to discuss the many interpretations and house rulings of it and instead of just throwing opinions around, try and get some actual evidence to put the problem at rest.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
Yes, but many people may have put that down to the rules being complete gak. This thread is to discuss the many interpretations and house rulings of it and instead of just throwing opinions around, try and get some actual evidence to put the problem at rest.

You say you want evidence for this, but yet you're stated evidence against shooting being allowed is that 'the rules being complete gak' (an opinion) and dismiss the only evidence that really matters (the written rules). Saying 'their is no rule against it' is not an opinion. It's the written rules.

They always intended it, and I think it's one of the best changes since WFB. It helps speed up the game and make every unit useful. The rule was never in question, but some people coming from the WFB mindset house-ruled it out in the early days.

There are lots of other examples of units that clearly imply shooting is ok within 3". For example, a unit might have a special rule that does X in missile fire only when a target is more than 3" away, implying that they do normal missile fire when closer than 3" and do the special thing when the target is closer. Example: Bretonian Peasant Archer Arrowstorm,

Yes, it is intended and is RAW.

You can only shoot in your phase but can fight CC in your opponents.

It balances out.

As several people have pointed out above, if GW did not intend for the rules to allow shooting in melee, it is logical to suppose that GW would not have written rules to allow shooting in melee.

It's easier to grip when you think it the other way around. There is not such thing as being in close combat in AoS. You just get to hit stuff when you're close enough and it restricts your movement.

That's a good way of putting it.

Think of melee as being people walking, running and jumping about to take an occasional swing at each other, not standing face to face whacking away, and it makes shooting in and out of melee a lot more feasible.

It is intended. Hence that some units have a restriction rule on their datasheet for shooting in combat tho.

It's quite clear in the rules, no idea where you got the other interpetations from

I never got this whole notion of people thinking its wrong to shoot while in melee combat. They say "it wouldnt happen in real life" ... while there elf sits on a dragon... but anyways.. if you were walking down the street and someone pulled a knife on you, and you happen to be conceal carrying, I would much rather pull my gun out then have a knife duel hahahaha. Whenever people try to justify there should be no shooting in melee combat rule to me it, it just makes them look dumb because they really have no good explanation other then them not liking it....

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I never got this whole notion of people thinking its wrong to shoot while in melee combat. They say "it wouldnt happen in real life" ... while there elf sits on a dragon... but anyways.. if you were walking down the street and someone pulled a knife on you, and you happen to be conceal carrying, I would much rather pull my gun out then have a knife duel hahahaha. Whenever people try to justify there should be no shooting in melee combat rule to me it, it just makes them look dumb because they really have no good explanation other then them not liking it....

Except there's a large difference between using a pistol at close range and using a longbow at close range. It's far more cumbersome, less accurate, and requires two hands to use instead of one. Personally I dislike the idea of shooting while in combat, and I very much dislike the fact that you can shoot at an entirely different unit from the one you are engaged with. I really have a hard time imaging an archer calmly lining up a shot at a target some distance away while someone else is charging straight at him with the intent to kill.

However, the rules are written in such a way that there is absolutely no restriction on shooting while in combat, either at the unit you are in combat with, or any other.

It's a feature of the game. (Or a bug, depending on your personal view of things.)

Edit: Being the tiny guy in the mosh pit at OzzFest reminds me of how "shooting" in close combat can work

Agreed, it's just fine as is. But if you are playing outside of an event of comp pack doesn't hurt to just ask your opponent before deployment if he wants to or not. Or if he/she cares enough they will ask you.

Sum: I wouldn't worry about what GW intended and just use what you want to in your game to enjoy. That last most important rule on page 4 Happy AoS'ing!

As others have stated, pretty sure the intent is to be able to shoot while engaged.

What really drives me nuts, though, is that it effectively gives ranged units another attack. I haven't found anywhere that says you have to choose between using ranged in the shooting phase or melee in the combat phase, engaged or no. I'd really rather they change that than the shooting while engaged bit (although I wouldn't mind seeing a -1 to hit or something for doing so.)

ninjaDance wrote:
As others have stated, pretty sure the intent is to be able to shoot while engaged.

What really drives me nuts, though, is that it effectively gives ranged units another attack. I haven't found anywhere that says you have to choose between using ranged in the shooting phase or melee in the combat phase, engaged or no. I'd really rather they change that than the shooting while engaged bit (although I wouldn't mind seeing a -1 to hit or something for doing so.)

Some units have something similar. For example, Dwarf Irondrakes can shoot twice if there are no enemies within 3" (and they haven't moved), which pretty much means they lose an attack while in combat.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I never got this whole notion of people thinking its wrong to shoot while in melee combat. They say "it wouldnt happen in real life" ... while there elf sits on a dragon... but anyways.. if you were walking down the street and someone pulled a knife on you, and you happen to be conceal carrying, I would much rather pull my gun out then have a knife duel hahahaha. Whenever people try to justify there should be no shooting in melee combat rule to me it, it just makes them look dumb because they really have no good explanation other then them not liking it....

Except there's a large difference between using a pistol at close range and using a longbow at close range. It's far more cumbersome, less accurate, and requires two hands to use instead of one. Personally I dislike the idea of shooting while in combat, and I very much dislike the fact that you can shoot at an entirely different unit from the one you are engaged with. I really have a hard time imaging an archer calmly lining up a shot at a target some distance away while someone else is charging straight at him with the intent to kill.

However, the rules are written in such a way that there is absolutely no restriction on shooting while in combat, either at the unit you are in combat with, or any other.

I dunno the Elves from Lords of the Rings seem to do it just fine.

Nijad.

Was just about to bring up legolas in the film's.
Gives a nice visual effect of shooting into combat.

Models in CC aren't always in each other's faces.
If your 20 metres from someone and have a bow, why not take the shot?
Rear ranks would be firing the same way too.

I like the idea personally as most shooty units have poor cc weapons with no bonus to them, so they get a fighting chance in combat.

There are 2 parts, what's realistic and game design.

Part 1: "realism". The idea that archers are always terrible in CC is not a thing. Historically: mongols would shoot you from horseback and beat you to death with their bare fists.
The idea that you can't shoot into a combat comes from movies and/or wargames. It doesn't feel right because that's how it was explained to you when you started wargaming. At a large scale and range (or into a messy brawlish combat) yes you might hit your own guys. If warriors are in formed units and at a scale where individual soldiers and their actual weapons matter, the effect is not worth worrying about (with the exception of some circumstances) and situations where "danger close" shooting can happen can be though up easily enough (shooting a monster while it is fighting is easy enough). Not to mention the Persian spear wall and archer formations (Alexander tried it too) which involved coordinating cc and missile troops in the same unit and pike and shot combinations.
Shooting in a combat only happens in the controlling player's turn, easily explainable by saying that missile armed troops fall back a bit to get some shots off before the enemy closes again.

Part 2: game design. Defining the required situations and building in a "hit your own guys' mechanism is not worth the extra trouble and complication. Usually shooting into combat is forbidden because it opens the door to cheese (e.g. tarpit and shoot), muddies the combat/shooting mechanisms and allows too much damage to be dealt in the same place in one turn. In a high damage, low defense system (makes it faster and allows more epic take downs and the like to happen) like AoS we don't need this anymore. Also, with the random turn mechanic ranged troops need this or their shooting can be canceled entirely.