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So when I left the hobby last, GK was still in 5th ed, where a Dreadknight had a Nemesis Greatsword or nothing, Daemon Hammer wasn't a question. For a weapon that did everything a Hammer did, but also rerolled hits, wounds and AV pen, it was worth the extra 10pts. But these days, I just noticed its exactly the same as a Daemon Hammer, but has Master Crafted instead of Concussive, and is 5pts more expensive. If my maths skills fail me, I apologise, but, the chance to reduce those fast moving opponents to Int 1, vs rerolling 1 to hit roll per combat, and for 5pts cheaper, sounds 100% better to me.

Please tell me theres something I'm missing to the Greatsword as I really prefer the sword, especially how I have my own painted, compared to the Hammer.

Concussive is bad. It only affects MODELS that suffer a wound from it and since you're S10 ap2 most models are dead when you hit them with your hammer so nothing suffers the i1 penalty.

Most times I see people running greatswords just for the master-crafted, really. It's not too flashy, but every hit is precious.

And I don't think I've literally ever seen concussive make any difference in a game, but I do play orks, so that may vary per army.

And for the record, the old fist + sword rerolling everything at str 10 was BROKEN. As in, broke the rules of the game, though the FAQ allowed it for some reason.

I guess the question is - what would you use concussive on? I presume you'll be activating force, so any unit with wounds will be instakilled outright, and won't get a second turn. Vehicles you hit on rear armor, so auto-penning most things with str 10.

That leaves walkers, and dreadnights basically autopawn any walker by virtue of the fact they are a MC. But in the event of having trouble with walkers, which walker are you concerned by that is I5 or higher? Because that's the only thing you would even have a use for concussive against.

I guess there might be use v. high-I GMCs, but GMCs usually have pretty low I. I think wrathknights are only I4, and even so, dreadknights do terrible things to GMCs in CC (with force).

I think Wraithknights somehow get I5.

The MCraft is worth it. It makes those four attacks land 3 hits instead of two, for simplicity's sake (I HATE math for Master-Crafted).

Yup wraith knights are i5.

Concussion might help you against some greater daemons, I had a LOC with booms tick killed because of a concussion hammer once. But that was once, and he was wounded already from killing a dread knight with hammer previously.

It's one of those things that should be awesome but isn't quite as awesome as it should be. If it reduced attacks (but not to 1) and initiative it would be great.

I personally don't think the 10 points for master crafted is worth it. I run mine in pairs as I assume most do, and for the same cost as one sword I can give both hammers. But I don't do this for concussive, I only do it so their close combat attacks gain the 'force' psychic power. If the fists had that like the old edition I'd likely not upgrade any of the close combat weapons.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I personally don't think the 10 points for master crafted is worth it. I run mine in pairs as I assume most do, and for the same cost as one sword I can give both hammers. But I don't do this for concussive, I only do it so their close combat attacks gain the 'force' psychic power. If the fists had that like the old edition I'd likely not upgrade any of the close combat weapons.

Doesn't the sword also have Force?

Yes.

Also, paying just 10 for MCraft is great, especially when the model doesn't have a billion attacks.

CrownAxe wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I personally don't think the 10 points for master crafted is worth it. I run mine in pairs as I assume most do, and for the same cost as one sword I can give both hammers. But I don't do this for concussive, I only do it so their close combat attacks gain the 'force' psychic power. If the fists had that like the old edition I'd likely not upgrade any of the close combat weapons.

Doesn't the sword also have Force?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yes.

Also, paying just 10 for MCraft is great, especially when the model doesn't have a billion attacks.

Well my point was

5pt Hammer= Str 10, AP 2, Force, Daemonbane, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, Concussive

10pt Sword= Str 10, AP 2, Force, Specialist Weapon, Master Crafted

As Unweildy has no effect, the only difference is between MC OR concussive

 Deadshot wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I personally don't think the 10 points for master crafted is worth it. I run mine in pairs as I assume most do, and for the same cost as one sword I can give both hammers. But I don't do this for concussive, I only do it so their close combat attacks gain the 'force' psychic power. If the fists had that like the old edition I'd likely not upgrade any of the close combat weapons.

Doesn't the sword also have Force?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yes.

Also, paying just 10 for MCraft is great, especially when the model doesn't have a billion attacks.

Well my point was

5pt Hammer= Str 10, AP 2, Force, Daemonbane, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, Concussive

10pt Sword= Str 10, AP 2, Force, Specialist Weapon, Master Crafted

As Unweildy has no effect, the only difference is between MC OR concussive

And as we pointed out Concussive generally does nothing. While MC generally means you get +1 hit

Which one you take has a lot to do with personal choice. I prefer the pair the Sword with a Psycannon and Incinerator on one DK, and the Hammer with a Psycannon and Psilencer on my second DK. Those loadouts work for me, something different might work for you.

SJ

You won't have force activated EVERY TIME when you got in a combat with enemy MCs, sometimes maybe just caught off guard, or just because you have a bad psychic phase where your force got denied (this would be especially common the GK is facing their nemesis - daemons who generally have even more psychic dice than GK and every good Daemon player knows how powerful force is on a model that has daemonbane weapon)

At such a moment, as well as that when fighting against GMC with I5 or higher (i.e. WK), or those have eternal warrior (i.e. Belakor), concussive would be more important, since when you drop them to I1 once you survived the first round of combat, you got a way better chances to kill them in the succesive rounds. Other than these, your DK will kill whatever he caught in combat.

The issue is that you're most likely going to cast Force anyway on a troublesome target. So why would Concussive be needed at that point? It'll already be striking last most likely if it has EW, or Force will just knock it out. Plus you're likely to ally in Grav of some kind, and all of that is Concussive in the first place (which is some decent synergy).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is that you're most likely going to cast Force anyway on a troublesome target. So why would Concussive be needed at that point? It'll already be striking last most likely if it has EW, or Force will just knock it out. Plus you're likely to ally in Grav of some kind, and all of that is Concussive in the first place (which is some decent synergy).

Yea, sure, if I play GK I will cast Force everytime before my DK launches a charge into the enemy MCs.
But if I play Daemon or Eldar I will definitely not hesitate to throw 10+ deny dices at that force if I had that many, when I saw that DK holding a whatever Daemonbane Force weapon is bearing down at my Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, or Eldar Wraith Knight.....

This is the point. MC's are particularly common in my meta. Riptides, blood thirsters, wraithknights etc.

Force isn't guaranteed. Granted Tau won't stop it, but others might. Things like Eldar certainly try. And I'm more inclined in a lot of these circumstances to try and ensure I get sanctuary. Add that to the fact that warp charges do run out. When this happens I find concussive really useful. It's personal experience I guess.

Saying "I cast force every time before I charge" doesn't wash with me. My Eldar list with a Wraithknight and a seer council will shut your force down if it needs to almost every time.

If a GK player is up against Eldar he already lost anyway. Just the way you phrased that makes it seem like such a easy counter, but you and one other army can do that reliably.

WK have Int5, so I would say they probably kill the Dreadknight anyway.

X

daveh974 wrote:Isn't the sword only S6 now?

No, its Strx2, a Dreadknight always hits at Str 10 these days, no FAQ needed.



Don't get me wrong here, I'm very glad that the sword is more universally viable than the Hammer, I like the sword a whole hell of a lot better. I'm still kinda wary that I'm wasting points in a points heavy army though.

The one place I could actually see Concussive being worth is is against the "fluffy" targets of large MCs. Specifically speaking, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Tyranid MCs (particularly Lash-whip Toxicrene), Wraithknights, because against those targets you won't have the Warp Charge to overpower other armies like Tau, so best kff saving the charges for Invisibility or Hammerhand on other units.

 Quickjager wrote:
If a GK player is up against Eldar he already lost anyway. Just the way you phrased that makes it seem like such a easy counter, but you and one other army can do that reliably.

WK have Int5, so I would say they probably kill the Dreadknight anyway.

If he charges a NDK into a dual cannon WK, the NDK actually is likely to live (if he was smart and put Sanctuary up and activated Force). If charging the sword n board WK, the NDK is in for a bad day. However, I've found that baiting WKs into charging into my NDKs or GK Termies while they're in cover has led to some very easily killed WKs. They end up striking at I1 through difficult terrain, and then you punch them in the face and Force them down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes.

Also, paying just 10 for MCraft is great, especially when the model doesn't have a billion attacks.

Agreed, I'm not sure how anyone can complain about paying 10 points for a S10 Master-crafted Force weapon. NDKs need every hit to count. Not that the Hammer's bad, it's just that the sword is certainly good.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
If a GK player is up against Eldar he already lost anyway. Just the way you phrased that makes it seem like such a easy counter, but you and one other army can do that reliably.

WK have Int5, so I would say they probably kill the Dreadknight anyway.

If he charges a NDK into a dual cannon WK, the NDK actually is likely to live (if he was smart and put Sanctuary up and activated Force). If charging the sword n board WK, the NDK is in for a bad day. However, I've found that baiting WKs into charging into my NDKs or GK Termies while they're in cover has led to some very easily killed WKs. They end up striking at I1 through difficult terrain, and then you punch them in the face and Force them down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes.

Also, paying just 10 for MCraft is great, especially when the model doesn't have a billion attacks.

Agreed, I'm not sure how anyone can complain about paying 10 points for a S10 Master-crafted Force weapon. NDKs need every hit to count. Not that the Hammer's bad, it's just that the sword is certainly good.

I can't recall in WK are GCs or not, but is it EW? Surely, Gatling Psilencer would be a much better method of killing it? Unless I' misremembering something important?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
If a GK player is up against Eldar he already lost anyway. Just the way you phrased that makes it seem like such a easy counter, but you and one other army can do that reliably.

WK have Int5, so I would say they probably kill the Dreadknight anyway.

If he charges a NDK into a dual cannon WK, the NDK actually is likely to live (if he was smart and put Sanctuary up and activated Force). If charging the sword n board WK, the NDK is in for a bad day. However, I've found that baiting WKs into charging into my NDKs or GK Termies while they're in cover has led to some very easily killed WKs. They end up striking at I1 through difficult terrain, and then you punch them in the face and Force them down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yes.

Also, paying just 10 for MCraft is great, especially when the model doesn't have a billion attacks.

Agreed, I'm not sure how anyone can complain about paying 10 points for a S10 Master-crafted Force weapon. NDKs need every hit to count. Not that the Hammer's bad, it's just that the sword is certainly good.

I can't recall in WK are GCs or not, but is it EW? Surely, Gatling Psilencer would be a much better method of killing it? Unless I' misremembering something important?

GCs only took D3 wounds off when suffering ID, Gatling Psilencer could not hurt it because it is T8......

I run a mix of hammers and swords cause of points (I actually need those 5 points elsewhere lol) and wraithknights are common enough that concussive is somewhat valuable. And really, you're only paying 5 points for master-crafted...the other 5 are for force (like the hammer).