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Hey I was giving a black Templar force a run out and all my crusader squad guys had bolt pistol and chainsword which I thought gave me an extra attack! My opponent said I was wrong so we played it that way for the game, has something changed or was I shafted?

You got shafted. Pistols count as close combat weapons so pistol and chainsword very definitely counts as +1 attack.

You were shafted. Pisolts count as a CCW in their rules so you have 2x CCW for the extra attack.

I knew it, cheers lads!! I still wom the game but the Emperor's champion had to do a lot of the heavy lifting with his bodyguard losing half their attacks

Wow. I'm glad you won but damn...that really sucks.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Wow. I'm glad you won but damn...that really sucks.

Sure these things happen in 40k, someone always tries to twist rules in their favour, it sucks but what can you do.

This makes me a bit mad that you got shafted this way. Like Black Templars don't have enough trouble already on the tabletop? haha

Out of curiosity, what did you think the benefit was for replacing boltgun with chainsword was, if not an additional close combat attack?

 IllumiNini wrote:
Like Black Templars don't have enough trouble already on the tabletop? haha

Uh. They're still Vanilla Space Marines, what are you talking about?

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Like Black Templars don't have enough trouble already on the tabletop? haha

Uh. They're still Vanilla Space Marines, what are you talking about?

No Psykers, bad CTs and bad unique characters probably.

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Like Black Templars don't have enough trouble already on the tabletop? haha

Uh. They're still Vanilla Space Marines, what are you talking about?

If you play them like Vanilla Marines, then there's no point playing Black Templars and you might as well pick something better (most, if not all other Chapters are better). You play Black Templar lists that are fluffy, which means lots of close and mid range stuff, which in turn means that if your opponent has range and anti-tank, you're done.

I get the feeling you've never played Black Templars let alone fluffy Black Templars before.

Hanskrampf wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Like Black Templars don't have enough trouble already on the tabletop? haha

Uh. They're still Vanilla Space Marines, what are you talking about?

No Psykers, bad CTs and bad unique characters probably.

No psykers is definitely a downside, whether or not the Chapter Tactics are bad is circumstantial (but usually they're not so good), and the Unique Characters are at least half-way-decent, but I feel like High Marshal Helbrecht should be buffed and made a Lord of War. If you're playing lists that are more infantry than armour, then Black Templars can be very good (especially if they get to use their LRCs), but generally they get torn to shreds if you try to play them fluffy; and if you don't play them fluffy, you might as well play another Chapter.

It really sucks that your opponent insisted this was the cause, I hope, that it was a genuine mistake on their part, rather than any kind of skullduggery.

 IllumiNini wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Like Black Templars don't have enough trouble already on the tabletop? haha

Uh. They're still Vanilla Space Marines, what are you talking about?

If you play them like Vanilla Marines, then there's no point playing Black Templars and you might as well pick something better (most, if not all other Chapters are better). You play Black Templar lists that are fluffy, which means lots of close and mid range stuff, which in turn means that if your opponent has range and anti-tank, you're done.

I get the feeling you've never played Black Templars let alone fluffy Black Templars before.

Yes, I don't play BTs. They really are one of the weaker, if not the weakest vanilla Space Marines, but they're still Space Marines.
That doesn't change the fact that they still have access to the Vanilla Formations and rules, which aren't bad at all. Yes, you can't run the Gladius and bring Crusader Squads in it, but that's pretty much the only issue rules-wise. You still have access to Grav Cents, Drop Pods, Grav guns in general and all the other tools of a Space Marine Chapter. When fully utilizing it, Space Marines are a top tier army. If you restrict yourself to a fluffy list you'll still be a tier 2 army at worst - which is perfectly fine.

That being said I'm hoping for Campaign Books similar to what WS / RG got for all the chapters outside of UMs (They have >their< thing in the core Codex already), including Black Templars. Maybe especially BTs, even though I probably still wouldn't buy it or play it as I'm not really a fan of their fluff and style.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did you think the benefit was for replacing boltgun with chainsword was, if not an additional close combat attack?

That is why I took it but having not gone through this editions rulebook in the minute details I have with previous editions I just went with his ruling. I think no psykers is a negative but not a catastrophic one, I think the weaker chapter tactics is what holds back Templars.

nekooni wrote:Yes, I don't play BTs. They really are one of the weaker, if not the weakest vanilla Space Marines, but they're still Space Marines.
That doesn't change the fact that they still have access to the Vanilla Formations and rules, which aren't bad at all. Yes, you can't run the Gladius and bring Crusader Squads in it, but that's pretty much the only issue rules-wise. You still have access to Grav Cents, Drop Pods, Grav guns in general and all the other tools of a Space Marine Chapter. When fully utilizing it, Space Marines are a top tier army. If you restrict yourself to a fluffy list you'll still be a tier 2 army at worst - which is perfectly fine.

That being said I'm hoping for Campaign Books similar to what WS / RG got for all the chapters outside of UMs (They have >their< thing in the core Codex already), including Black Templars. Maybe especially BTs, even though I probably still wouldn't buy it or play it as I'm not really a fan of their fluff and style.

Maybe you're right, maybe I am. Hell, maybe we both are. But in my experience, I'm stuck in a position where I can do a decent job against armies that don't have the advantage of extreme range on me as well as armies such as Orks and Nids (though lets be honest, most other armies can for a semi-decent list that can stomp either of them). One of my main problems with playing fluffy BTs is it tends towards close and mid range which can be countered so very easily by Grav, Melta and 48" Range weapons. The only what this is going to change is if the fluff changes (which is unlikely at best), or the rules of Black Templars improve (but I doubt that's high on GW's priority list).

Spyro_Killer wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did you think the benefit was for replacing boltgun with chainsword was, if not an additional close combat attack?

That is why I took it but having not gone through this editions rulebook in the minute details I have with previous editions I just went with his ruling. I think no psykers is a negative but not a catastrophic one, I think the weaker chapter tactics is what holds back Templars.

It would be really cool if they buff the Chapter Tactics to allow more fluffy play. Like give BTs a Strength Bonus (like +1 or something) when using Chainswords, or allow dedicated transports (particularly Land Raider Crusaders) to have greater movements or more shots with their guns. They need a buff.

 IllumiNini wrote:

nekooni wrote:Yes, I don't play BTs. They really are one of the weaker, if not the weakest vanilla Space Marines, but they're still Space Marines.
That doesn't change the fact that they still have access to the Vanilla Formations and rules, which aren't bad at all. Yes, you can't run the Gladius and bring Crusader Squads in it, but that's pretty much the only issue rules-wise. You still have access to Grav Cents, Drop Pods, Grav guns in general and all the other tools of a Space Marine Chapter. When fully utilizing it, Space Marines are a top tier army. If you restrict yourself to a fluffy list you'll still be a tier 2 army at worst - which is perfectly fine.

That being said I'm hoping for Campaign Books similar to what WS / RG got for all the chapters outside of UMs (They have >their< thing in the core Codex already), including Black Templars. Maybe especially BTs, even though I probably still wouldn't buy it or play it as I'm not really a fan of their fluff and style.

Maybe you're right, maybe I am. Hell, maybe we both are. But in my experience, I'm stuck in a position where I can do a decent job against armies that don't have the advantage of extreme range on me as well as armies such as Orks and Nids (though lets be honest, most other armies can for a semi-decent list that can stomp either of them). One of my main problems with playing fluffy BTs is it tends towards close and mid range which can be countered so very easily by Grav, Melta and 48" Range weapons. The only what this is going to change is if the fluff changes (which is unlikely at best), or the rules of Black Templars improve (but I doubt that's high on GW's priority list).

Well everyone has to deal with Grav, Melta and Lance weapons. I think your problems arent really related to BTs, it's more that Land Raiders are way overprized and still incredibly fragile for what they should be based on fluff. Even for melee units you're probably better off deploying them via Drop Pod.

 IllumiNini wrote:


It would be really cool if they buff the Chapter Tactics to allow more fluffy play. Like give BTs a Strength Bonus (like +1 or something) when using Chainswords, or allow dedicated transports (particularly Land Raider Crusaders) to have greater movements or more shots with their guns. They need a buff.

One of the biggest advantages of Space Marines is their ability to be Battle Brothers with...well the entire IOM. That's a pretty significant advantage, but it means fluffy lists aren't necessarily as powerful. Means a little buff to any aspect can cause lots of unintended consequences.

...and of course more arguments about IC's joining squads and benefiting from different abilities.

Lendys wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


It would be really cool if they buff the Chapter Tactics to allow more fluffy play. Like give BTs a Strength Bonus (like +1 or something) when using Chainswords, or allow dedicated transports (particularly Land Raider Crusaders) to have greater movements or more shots with their guns. They need a buff.

One of the biggest advantages of Space Marines is their ability to be Battle Brothers with...well the entire IOM. That's a pretty significant advantage, but it means fluffy lists aren't necessarily as powerful. Means a little buff to any aspect can cause lots of unintended consequences.

...and of course more arguments about IC's joining squads and benefiting from different abilities.

I far prefer playing a fluffy less competitive list then allying in superstar units/characters and playing black templars in a very un-templar way

 Spyro_Killer wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did you think the benefit was for replacing boltgun with chainsword was, if not an additional close combat attack?

That is why I took it but having not gone through this editions rulebook in the minute details I have with previous editions I just went with his ruling.

The information can be found in the Weapons section under both "Close Combat Weapon" and "Pistol". It is possible that he was gimped by someone else's training and cheating and had not looked it up themselves. It happens far too often.