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I should preface by saying that I am the Eldar player in this case and that I had allied GKs, but even if I was playing all Eldar I think last night's game would have gone the same.

So here it is:
White Scar (Khan) Gladuis with a mix of free Rhinos & Drop Pods. 6 Tac Marines 5-man units with 1 Grav Cannon in the Rhinos. Assault marines in Drop Pods with Flamers, He also had 2 Heavy Bolter Devs in Razorbacks, but they didn't do much. There were also 2 more units in Pods. 4 Meltas in 1, 4 Flamers in the other, but I am not sure what those units were. AND there were 2 MM/HF Dreads in Pods that never even came in.
Scouted all the Rhinos forward to trap the Eldar (making their movement irrelevant). Shoot Grav out of the Rhinos, Drop Pod in amongst the Eldar force.

This happened to me and I lost BOTH DreadKnights, Half my WK, 4 units of Scatterbikes and my Farseer got insta-gibbed by a Landspeeder Missile launcher (part of his Auxiliary). And I actually went FIRST!
By my turn 2 all I had was a unit of Termies (which would die to all the Grav), 1 Crimson Hunter (which would die because re-roll Tactical doctrine), 2 units of bikes and half a WK (which would die to more Grav).
All I had done was kill 3 Rhinos in my turn 1 (and some hull points on others), so with less than half my firepower left, I conceded turn 2 before rolling for Reserves.

If you play Marines competitively and are not fielding this, you have no right to complain about Eldar. You have the tools to table Eldar! The above list destroys Eldar and if you go first you should be able to deal with Tau too. The only way to prevent this is to add more non-Eldar to the list in the form of an Inquisitor with Servo Skulls.
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Hypothetical: lets say instead of the GKs, I had 2 Aspect hosts with all Spiders. I may have kiiled a few more Rhinos, but with all his Squads in the middle of the board, there was not enough terrain to Flicker-Jump the spiders out of LoS.

Basically, having nearly 500pts of FREE transports is a really good counter to all the Str6 spam. Sure I can kill all those Rhinos, but they were free AND already served their purpose due to Scout.

--

Wait... your saying someone playing with 500pts more than Eldar can win easier? Go figure...

My SoB/Flesh Tearer army will won heavily when iw as testing them out with a friend, he played 3 units of Jetbikes and a few vehicles with Seer Conceal on Bikes.

Lets just say 3 units of Rending Heavy Flamers and 3 Units of Ignore Cover Melta in Drop pods did the trick.

Alot of it is Rock, Paper, Scissor, even Eldar has its weakness, Especially if the Eldar playing isnt player a WAAC list.

Another list I always have trouble with is heavy Drop Pod lists (especially if Skyhammer is involved). They Drop down, Grav or Melta the WK to death, and/or kill over half the Scatterbikes (or worse, make them Jink) and charge the rest. SW, DA & BA can do this as well.

Basically I am trying to convey that if you can nullify the Eldar speed and target the right units, you can beat them 90% of the time. SM of all colors (and by extension all of the Imperium) can do this.

Surprisingly, Daemons can do this too as long as they field lots of Hounds, Screamers, and/or Drones. Even Seekers can do a number on Eldar, but you need tons on big units for it to work.

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What point are you trying to make? Is this just a rant?

LoadToad wrote:
What point are you trying to make? Is this just a rant?

I had my chance to rant with my opponent. We discussed the game afterwards and decided I should add Servo Skulls and should have reserved the DKs until more Grav was killed.

My point was that mixing scouting Rhinos and Drop Pods is, IMO, the best way to run Marines. So much so, that I think they can consistently beat the top list (Eldar). I am actually surprised that this has come up sooner (or that I have missed it if it did come up).

Does anyone know how the Scouting Grav Gladius does against a Necron Decuriion of Tau (which I think most agree are the other 'top' lists)?

 Galef wrote:

LoadToad wrote:
What point are you trying to make? Is this just a rant?

I had my chance to rant with my opponent. We discussed the game afterwards and decided I should add Servo Skulls and should have reserved the DKs until more Grav was killed.

My point was that mixing scouting Rhinos and Drop Pods is, IMO, the best way to run Marines. So much so, that I think they can consistently beat the top list (Eldar). I am actually surprised that this has come up sooner (or that I have missed it if it did come up).

Does anyone know how the Scouting Grav Gladius does against a Necron Decuriion of Tau (which I think most agree are the other 'top' lists)?

Oh b.c you know the past few tournaments Eldar was still the top lists (even against these marines). Just b.c it beat you doesnt mean it beats everyone/everything.

Is it strong? YES very!, Is it the best? No not by any means.

Im not trying ot be mean or anything, just letting you know

 Galef wrote:
Another list I always have trouble with is heavy Drop Pod lists (especially if Skyhammer is involved). They Drop down, Grav or Melta the WK to death, and/or kill over half the Scatterbikes (or worse, make them Jink) and charge the rest. SW, DA & BA can do this as well.

Basically I am trying to convey that if you can nullify the Eldar speed and target the right units, you can beat them 90% of the time. SM of all colors (and by extension all of the Imperium) can do this.

Surprisingly, Daemons can do this too as long as they field lots of Hounds, Screamers, and/or Drones. Even Seekers can do a number on Eldar, but you need tons on big units for it to work.

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Have you brought Warp Spiders? The Marines (especially the droppod style marines army, after they landed) are generally very slow, which made them not possible to catch the Eldar units, in which you just need to survive their alpha strike, and then you could run away and shoot back from long range (scatbike) or JSJ out of their range (which Warp Spiders do very well). So it is better to reserve your army and onpy put 15+ warp spiders on the table, with their flicker jump and Hit and Run, marines have no way to table them in the first two rounds, and after that, your WK, jetbikes come in from reserve and alpha strike the "alpha strike" marines.
Against the White Scar Army, your jetbikes, warp.spiders, WKs, and Wave Serpents can all move over enemy units in any phase because either they are "Jet", "Jump", or "fast skimmer", then turboost / flat out / run / shoot and run / warp jump away to safety, just do not stop at less than 1 inch from them. So even with scout move, White Scar will have a hard time to corner you.

What table do you guys play on? We play on 4x6 tables and, I'm sorry but in both Vangaud and Hammer-n-Anvil deployment there is not enough room to get away from them. Grav is 24", which can reach nearly the whole board if you have a line in the middle. Or at least creates a 48" bubble making Turbo boosting out of EVERY units LoS impossible. Anywhere on the board should be in range of at least 2 Grav cannons.
Dawn of War is easier for Eldar to refuse flank and only have to deal with half the army at a time, but in the other deployments, the Marine palyer simply has to Scout up a line of Rhinos to the center lIne, then the Eldar are trapped. Even with Scatterbikes turbo-boosting over them for a turn doesn't work, b/c the Marine can just move closer and still be in range. Sure, moving makes the Grav cannon less effective, but if you control the board and force the Eldar to keep moving, you will win an objective game every time. If the bikes are turbo-boosting, they are not shooting

3 Scatterbikes don't always kill 1 Rhino (they should, but cover is a thing) or kill the 5 Marines inside (and you need to kill all of them b/c the Grav wil be in the back. The Gladius can literally field more free transports than the Eldar player has units, affectively halving the Eldar firepower

Yes, I should have played differently in my game, but I truly think that the outcome would have bee the same, just taken more turns. Eldar need a "safe zone" to be effective and with a 48" bubble in the center of the board, there is no safe zone.
I am probably not explaining myself well. I am a visual person and would have to demonstrate on an actual table, but I am trying to advise Gladius players on how to can not only Alpha Strike, but set up in a way that give the Eldar player such hard choices that they cannot possibly avoid losing (unless you have super-city fight LoS blocking terrain)

A note on Spiders: They are really good right now because few players know how to beat them. If they Flickerjump, they cannot use their extra movement in their next turn. They have 12" guns. So if you position your models in a way that puts around 24" between your models and a tempting LoS blocking piece of terrain, it is impossible for the Spiders to get close enough to shoot at you again. Placing Drop Pods in the Eldar "safe zone" disrupts their whole plan and makes any JSJ shenanigans much harder to do.

--

Don't forget that Grav Cannons only have a 12" range after moving, meaning you only need to be 25" away from the marines to make the cannon useless.

How are you dying so easily?

Your saying (If Im reading it correctly), that they are Dropping a "few" (2-3 at most) drop pods, and a few grave guns, How is that killing you so much you cant Kill 15-25 marines?

You also have JSJ, and if you are using Bikes or Warp Spiders you will make your own "safe zone" with 24"+ movement and ability to shoot, there is always a safe spot lol.

IDK but I have a few friend that play eldar, and they are NEVER in 1 spot, they have so much movement that they are always moving to a good spot, or opening up a spot for them. Also using cover in a way to force other players to make bad movements.

 Swampmist wrote:
Don't forget that Grav Cannons only have a 12" range after moving, meaning you only need to be 25" away from the marines to make the cannon useless.

I meant to cover that too. If you Scout like I am suggesting, you may force some bikes to Turboboost. The only place they can do this is over & behind the Rhino Line, If you were just within the 24" of the Rhino and Turbo-boost, you won't be able to get outside of the 24" behind them.

I am suggesting to cover the center of the board so that the Eldar has nowhere to go without being in range of at least 1 Grav Cannon. If you also have 4-6 Drop Pods, you can use the first to Aplha Strike, then if they scatter (get it? scatter the scatterbikes, lol) you use the 2nd wave to Beta Strike.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
How are you dying so easily?

Your saying (If Im reading it correctly), that they are Dropping a "few" (2-3 at most) drop pods, and a few grave guns, How is that killing you so much you cant Kill 15-25 marines?

You also have JSJ, and if you are using Bikes or Warp Spiders you will make your own "safe zone" with 24"+ movement and ability to shoot, there is always a safe spot lol.

IDK but I have a few friend that play eldar, and they are NEVER in 1 spot, they have so much movement that they are always moving to a good spot, or opening up a spot for them. Also using cover in a way to force other players to make bad movements.

That is what I am trying to explain. Yes Eldar have crazy balls movement, but the Gladius can cover the dang board so that there is NOWHERE to move without still being in range. I have played Eldar since 4th edition and am a regular tournament winner. I am trying to help people beat Eldar. Granted what I am explaining doesn't work as well in Dawn of War, you are correct, but in Vangaurd and H&A, it is very possible.

What makes Eldar so "tough" is being out of range or LoS, but that means nothing if you control (read dominate) the center of the table. Bikes die like Marines, except in this case the actual Marines are in metal boxes. Spiders die even faster if they can't hide.

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The White Scars Gladius being really good...isn't exactly new news.

But as with any strong army list, it can be hard countered by something out there.

I have to imagine that alot of alphastrike potential of the list can be combatted with clever deployment and terrain set up by the Eldar player, either way the massed drop pods do worry me as an Eldar/harlequin player

So, what's this all about? SM can beat eldar? Surprise...I found HARD counter to orks!

The hard counter to both the mentioned White Scar list and the Eldar list is appropriate tall, line of sight blocking terrain. Games stop beng one-sided when you stop playing on planet Bowling Ball! 7th is balanced around cluttered tables with tall terrain, a concept most of todays posters seem to not understand, as most complaints appear to be from a 5th Ed mindset of scarce terrain and open tables.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The hard counter to both the mentioned White Scar list and the Eldar list is appropriate tall, line of sight blocking terrain. Games stop beng one-sided when you stop playing on planet Bowling Ball! 7th is balanced around cluttered tables with tall terrain, a concept most of todays posters seem to not understand, as most complaints appear to be from a 5th Ed mindset of scarce terrain and open tables.

SJ

Couldn't agree more, it's just a bit unfortunate that a great many clubs and stores can only support a limited amount of terrain because of either storage concerns, cost or upkeep so a lot of us have to make do...

Not all battlefields are jammed full of walls, either. In fact, most aren't in real history.

Clever Eldar players can even turn this set up to their advantage with move->shoot->move shenanigans anyway. I frankly don't believe there is any hard counter to a mathematically superior list in 40K. You can gladius and win on objectives but that's not really a hard counter.

Martel732 wrote:
Not all battlefields are jammed full of walls, either. In fact, most aren't in real history.

Clever Eldar players can even turn this set up to their advantage with move->shoot->move shenanigans anyway. I frankly don't believe there is any hard counter to a mathematically superior list in 40K. You can gladius and win on objectives but that's not really a hard counter.

True but Eldar only need a few bits of LOS blocking terrain and Warp Spiders become redonkulus bullet sinks

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The hard counter to both the mentioned White Scar list and the Eldar list is appropriate tall, line of sight blocking terrain. Games stop beng one-sided when you stop playing on planet Bowling Ball! 7th is balanced around cluttered tables with tall terrain, a concept most of todays posters seem to not understand, as most complaints appear to be from a 5th Ed mindset of scarce terrain and open tables.

SJ

There is no terrain you can use that makes orks, ba, or csm good.

 Torus wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The hard counter to both the mentioned White Scar list and the Eldar list is appropriate tall, line of sight blocking terrain. Games stop beng one-sided when you stop playing on planet Bowling Ball! 7th is balanced around cluttered tables with tall terrain, a concept most of todays posters seem to not understand, as most complaints appear to be from a 5th Ed mindset of scarce terrain and open tables.

SJ

Couldn't agree more, it's just a bit unfortunate that a great many clubs and stores can only support a limited amount of terrain because of either storage concerns, cost or upkeep so a lot of us have to make do...

I agree on this statement as well, Warp Spiders, Scatbikes and WK becomes crazily awesome on table full of LoS blocking terrains. Thank the Emperor that tournament at my local club had the terrain on every table preset consistently, which only 2 WK / IK height large foot print LoS blocking Terrains are placed at the center of the board, while all other terrains are only "Marine-knee" height so only 5+/4+ cover save is provided. May be the tournament organizer had the sense to nerf Eldar indirectly to balance the games back.

Martel732 wrote:
Not all battlefields are jammed full of walls, either. In fact, most aren't in real history.

You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a modern commander who chooses to fight on flat open terrain. And even if one did, micro terrain (small hills and drop off and depressions that don't appear on a topographical map because the change in elevation isn't large enough) is present in pretty much all areas. So having terrain in a game of 40k that can hide stuff like tanks is pretty accurate to real history.

I cant stand playing on a field with so little terrain. It makes it feel like a shooting gallery which requires no tactics. Just point and roll.

This type of matchup is really a coin-flip. Shooty Eldar going 1st can potentially decimate White Scars BC and vice-versa. It's not a counter per-se. It's just a matter of whoever gets the alpha-strike first will have the advantage.

I am not really seeing a hard counter here. Normally any competitive Eldar force would run a VSG and vs a list like this deploy inside the VSG to negate pods, then just shoot it to bits.

Tau would do the same but delete the pods as a bonus.

The only Space Marine list I have had a hard time dealing with is Skyhammer. The amount of drop pod centurions full of heavy grav cannons and grav amps is utterly ridiculous...

Eldar players have been bringing a lot of reserve manipulation and reserving their bikes where I play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not all battlefields are jammed full of walls, either. In fact, most aren't in real history.

You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a modern commander who chooses to fight on flat open terrain. And even if one did, micro terrain (small hills and drop off and depressions that don't appear on a topographical map because the change in elevation isn't large enough) is present in pretty much all areas. So having terrain in a game of 40k that can hide stuff like tanks is pretty accurate to real history.

That's still a lot different than huge walls everywhere that something the size of the WK can't see over.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar players have been bringing a lot of reserve manipulation and reserving their bikes where I play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not all battlefields are jammed full of walls, either. In fact, most aren't in real history.

You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a modern commander who chooses to fight on flat open terrain. And even if one did, micro terrain (small hills and drop off and depressions that don't appear on a topographical map because the change in elevation isn't large enough) is present in pretty much all areas. So having terrain in a game of 40k that can hide stuff like tanks is pretty accurate to real history.

That's still a lot different than huge walls everywhere that something the size of the WK can't see over.

Point taken.

I'll be honest I came into this thread thinking something new was thought up- maybe about a weird mix of units that usually aren't used. I should have known it would just be gladius talk.

You can't give the basic troop a scatterlaser. You can't do it. Especially with hull points in the game. And GW did it. That's really the end of the discussion.

Even if I COULD field a gladius, it's a humiliating way to deal with Eldar, because you are just putting free stuff out there and hoping you can score points faster than they can trash your stuff. Your chances of actually threatening your opponent in a meaningful way is very low.

With a gladius you better hope you aren't playing a KP game or all those MSU are gunna give your opponent a high score.

Kill points are a terrible metric, though.