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Scatter Lasers vs Shuriken Cannons vs Starcannons against MEQ's  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Basically I'm wondering which is the best option? I know most people use the scatter laser for more shots against vehicles, but doesn't the ap2 of the starcannon help there? Like if you can hit something in the flank (AV11 or less, with Eldar mobility a real option) they're going to be worried by the possibility of you 1 shotting them.

My 3 main opponents are all marine players, with the emphasis on boots on the ground, I've been running scatter lasers but am thinking of switching to starcannons. Even against say Tyranids surely they have an edge with the ap value against the big gribblies that will actually worry you?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The Scatterlaser just has such great range it would be foolish not to take it. Weight of wounds will win the day on top of that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Starcannon has same range though. Is it basically that cover saves are too big a mitigating factor?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




It's more a Scatter Laser does more with twice the shots. Plus the Lasers can be spammed easier than Starcannons.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Hierarch





I personally am surprised that the Shuriken Cannon doesn't get more love. It's got the same strength, is even EASIER to spam (lower cost, and can be underslung) and trades 1 shot for AP5 Base and Bladestorm to make it the ultimate MEQ & TEQ killer. Compared to the Scatterlaser, that is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/02 00:11:42


 Tamereth wrote:

We'll take your Magnus leak and raise you plastic sisters, take that internet.
 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Against MEQ the shuriken cannon is slightly better. It's much better against GEQ with the AP5.

Given the range though and extra shot, the scatter laser usually beats the cannon out.
   
Made in us
Hierarch





 labmouse42 wrote:
Against MEQ the shuriken cannon is slightly better. It's much better against GEQ with the AP5.

Given the range though and extra shot, the scatter laser usually beats the cannon out.


I guess so? IDK, Bladestorm seems worth it if you can roll it. Also, has someone run the numbers on Shuriken Cannons VS Scatter Lasers against MCs and GMCs? Especially now that the ITC has houseruled out Toe-in-Cover for GMCs, it might be worth the number crunch to find out.

 Tamereth wrote:

We'll take your Magnus leak and raise you plastic sisters, take that internet.
 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Scatterlaser just has such great range it would be foolish not to take it. Weight of wounds will win the day on top of that.
This. When your opponent is having to roll a boatload of saves, even good armor saves or invulnerable saves aren't going to save them. Scatter Lasers all the way.

5250 pts
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Made in us
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




If you run the numbers vs MEQ only, starcannons take the day. That being said, the difference isn't so big as to ignore the difference in utility provided by 4 shots on other targets.

It's something like each scatter laser will kill .75 MEQ per volley and a starcannons will kill 1.1 at BS4. The difference is even larger at TEQ.

Edit: the math is a little more complicated for shuriken cannnons, but I think it's .78 MEQ/volley. Starcannons are totally worth it if you're facing heavy MEQ/TEQ and are okay sacrificing some flexibility.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/02 05:53:51


 
   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





You still get cover against starcannons, so your AP2 isn't really worth anywhere near as much as you'd think, and 2 shots at str 6 is still nowhere near as good as 4 shots at str 6 against vehicles, which, if you're playing marines, is probably going to be a very large component.

str 6 is great if you're relying on glances, the AP2 rarely comes into it, and even then, only against AV11 or 10, so, basically rhinos and chims, and even then, it's still only a 1/36 chance (roll a 6 to pen against AV11, roll a 6 on the damage chart).

Relying on double 6's isn't a sound strategy, whereas relying on a bunch of 5's and 6's to glance is fine when you're rolling 40 dice.

At the end of the day, you don't get starcannons on bikes anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point, because if you're playing competitively, the correct answer is scatbikes, spiders, WK and maybe a council. If you're not playing competitively, the eldar dex is strong enough for you to take whatever the hell you want and do just fine regardless.

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
Made in us
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




^^ Drasius is correct, that math is only accurate if you assume there aren't cover saves. The numbers even out if marines have like a 5+ cover save regularly:
   
Made in gb
Devastating Dark Reaper



England

Whenever I run war walkers I take a pair with double Starcannon on them. Might not be the most optimal loadout but my opponents tend to try and keep their heavy infantry away as they get munched by the 8 S6 AP2 shots headed their way.

I've also found them to have a better synergy on falcons than scatter Lasers.

When you aren't playing super competitive eldar they're quite fun.

Also I've found that my opponents tend to have a worse time when faced with scatter laser spam, just because of the rep of the SL.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 labmouse42 wrote:
Against MEQ the shuriken cannon is slightly better. It's much better against GEQ with the AP5.

Given the range though and extra shot, the scatter laser usually beats the cannon out.

I love it when people bring up the AP5 as a "benefit". GEQs will be in cover, making that AP5 pointless. More shots are better that AP5

But I definitely agree the Shuricannon is slightly better against MEQ, TEQ & MCs.

   
Made in us
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper



Dawsonville GA

I feel the scatter laser is the best all around pick for an all comer's list. Shuriken Cannon's and Star Cannon's can be better in certain specific situationsor opponents but if you are using an all comer's list then those specific situations may never arise. The few times the Shuriken Canon and Star Canon will be better are so few and far between it's just better to take the scatter laser. If you are list tailoring (which you shouldn't do) then you might pick them.

The other reason to take them over scatter laser's is if you just don't want to PO your opponent by taking so many of them. Taking Shuriken Canons instead of Scat lasers on your jetbikes might mollify your opponent if he is calling cheese.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 Galef wrote:
I love it when people bring up the AP5 as a "benefit". GEQs will be in cover, making that AP5 pointless
I've often gotten shots at guard where they were not in cover. Usually when someone is bringing large blobs of them it's pretty easy to do.
If half of the unit is in cover, shoot any cannons you have first then use the scatter lasers that won't care about cover.

Though it's a moot point. The range advantage on scatter lasers makes them the better tool overall.

If anyone cares about the math, this handy graph below shows it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




On top of the Scatterlaser being more effective against more targets, the math doesn't even account for the additional range.

I mean, one Shiroken Cannon squad won't kill you to have, but why bother?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I think the Star canon is actually quite severely underestimated: for example Marines take plasma a LOT. That is a big hint.

But Star Canon rarely compete with Scatter Lasers or Shuriken Canon where Bright Lances aren't an option too (one of the rare situations is on a WraithKnight with sword n sheild and bizarrely in that build I ALWAYS take star canon. Quite telling.)

So as I say they rarely if ever directly compete, (vypers, falcons and guardian defenders I think is almost all - theoretically you can add wave serpents but I doubt anyone would ever bother there days - and these units are highly sub optimal at the moment - EG for thr cost of a falcon you can have 2 Hornets nearly) so the trouble is they never get to compete on a level playing field. When the two that are interchangable do compete (SK / SL) Scatter Lasers are simply better than Shuriken Canon (unless you are talking things like Vypers which still carry a Scatter Laser tax), so if then where the cost is equal then at all times Scatter Lasers are better than Shuriken Canon because :

Longer Range
More immune to cover
Better vs vehicles

But if all 3 Star Canon Scatter laser and Shuriken Canon were truly the same cost I think you'd see a LOT more star cannon. As I say when they do directly compete I do use Star Canon on the WK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/03 17:33:11


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Marines take plasma because they can't take a scatterlaser. The starcannon is complete crap compared to the scatterlaser except against 2+ armor MCs. Guess what you are going to shoot them with? Str D.
   
 
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