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Hi! - new member here... after a few weeks of lurking Ive finally decided to join in!
I loved 40k as a child, played it back in 3rd edition, when I was 9-12 years old, and adored the game.
(story spoilerd for length)
Spoiler:
Back then me and my friends were a bit young to teach ourselves the rules (or maybe to stupid).. we knew no adults that played, there was no local club, and the Games Workshop was not very helpful, so we just tried to teach ourselves. We picked an army, brought some models the codex, and then started playing. For the first year we did not have a rule-book, and as such the rules we played with were a heavily dumbed down version of 3rd edition.
It was all about shooting, we understood ranges, movement, Armour saves, rolling to hit etc. but beyond that nothing. Everything was unbound, no army lists or points.. (looking back I probably was'nt as much of a tactical genius as I felt at the time, when I crushed my friends mass of ork boys with an armada of elder/tau tanks..), we had no idea how vehicles worked, and treated them as normal units.. we did not understand close combat at all.. and only eventually brought the rule book out of frustration.
But it did not matter as we loved the ideas, making up our own stories, trying to paint, turning our back yard into a battle field, the grass into a jungle etc.
Eventually everyone stopped playing, they all grew out of it and into more typical teenage hobbies.. and whilst I still loved the game, without anyone to play with, I eventually stopped myself.
---
Now though, many many years later I have returned to actually find out how the game should be played, and what its actually like.. and wow, I have had quite a surprise. Going from only knowing half of 3rd edition, to reading about 7th, is pretty mindblowing.
But one thing above all else took me by surprise: Eldar dont suck.
As a child I picked them because I liked the under-dog.. in our botched rules they were terrible.. marginally quicker then a marine, but much weaker Armour + shooting. I pretty much had to overload on vehicles just to remain slightly competative against marine + necron armies, and considered myself level with orks.
So yeah? elder are actually good? Problem is.. I hate that. I never ever like to play with an easy game, or with the best army in any video game/tabletop game, and all I ever want is a really difficult challenge.
So that's my question: What should I do?
Ive been looking at Dark eldar + Harliquins, as potential options to avoid playing as one of the best armies?
Or playing an eldar army that matches what I liked as a kid, rather then the 'best' units.. ( I loved wraith lords, + fire prisms.. which dont seem to be that great any more)
Or maybe another army? Looking back through my boxes, I have a lot of eldar, but also a playble amount (probably around 800pts of tyranids and tau, and around 200pts of imperial guard)
How easy is it to tone down an eldar army?
Maybe going with harliquins, and using my old eldar as allies?
Almost everything in the current eldar codex is pretty good, but even mentioning that you play eldar can set some players off and they wont want to play against you, so just keep that in mind when choosing an army. Dark eldar and harlequins are good but unforgiving, one wrong move and you lose the game (in most cases) but they are an awesome army
Reavas wrote: Almost everything in the current eldar codex is pretty good, but even mentioning that you play eldar can set some players off and they wont want to play against you, so just keep that in mind when choosing an army. Dark eldar and harlequins are good but unforgiving, one wrong move and you lose the game (in most cases) but they are an awesome army
Did not realize the feelings against eldar were that bad..
Loosing really does not bother me - I fall firmly into the story/dramatic side of the game, where loosing or winning does not really matter that much. For me (considering how crazy expensive the hobby seems to have gotten) its just about trying to choose the right army to invest in that can give me some good competative games, without making things unfair, or having an army that seems so bland and dull.
Honestly some of the recomendations for eldar armies just bore me these days.. a farseer on a bike, 3x bike, 3xbike etc etc. and a knight (a unit which I have no interest in, as it seems to have taken the steam away from my childhood favourite wraithlords)
I like the idea of allies, and being able to marge eldar/harli/dark eldar in some cool ways to create a balanced and varied force.. (but equally I keep seeing lists that make me dislike allies, e.g. a full eldar army, with 1 unit of tau suits... that just screems 'I like eldar, but they have a new toy that I want to play with because its good')
I agree, You should definatly pick what you find most fun, I personally have always wanted to run dark eldar or harlequins myself but don't have the money. And it is only a few people in the community that really have a grudge against eldar, just recently I saw a post on facebook commenting on "what a surprise that gaydar have several places in the top 10 local tounament placings" Its just childish if you ask me.
If you have a dark eldar and/or harlequin centric army then you shouldn't have much issues having fun games as both factions have solid units but nothing overpowerd. You can ally some Eldar stuff too and it shouldn't be an issue as long as you stay away from the heinous units (Jetbikes, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks).
Whats probably more important is finding a group you enjoying playing 40k in the style you want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/04 07:17:07
CrownAxe wrote: If you have a dark eldar and/or harlequin centric army then you shouldn't have much issues having fun games as both factions have solid units but nothing overpowerd. You can ally some Eldar stuff too and it shouldn't be an issue as long as you stay away from the heinous units (Jetbikes, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks).
Whats probably more important is finding a group you enjoying playing 40k in the style you want.
Agree with the bottom - but its a bit difficult to do at the moment! After re-descovering 40k, I moved to a small town in norther china for a year (for work) - so my actual playing/joining a gaming group is kind of on hold for now..
Which only really leaves me with planning/preparing/daydreaming/reading/learning
Reavas wrote: If where you live is anywhere near shanghai I know they have a store there, Its where I started my army
Three GW stores, actually, and at least two independent stockists. The GW in Madang Lu (formerly Xintiandi) is actually my favourite GW in the world. Great staff.
"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain.
Don't worry about people hating on Eldar. RIght now, all that hate is being shifted to Tau, and in half a year, who knows what's gonna be hated.
If you have a good looking cohesive force that you've created for the love of the models and overall feel of your army, most people will be more than happy to play you, and the very small minority that isn't aren't worth playing with.
Yes, Eldar is very powerful if you spam certain things (which I can tell you have no interest in doing) and yes, there isn't anything in their codex that is stupid bad as everything has a place. But if you create an army that looks aesthetically good and where the overall feel of the army pleases you, then it's not going to be an "easy win" army.
I play Skitarii, now they are pretty weak overall, but the point I'm about to make remains:
I built the army I have now without looking at the rules at all beyond knowing enough to make my list legal (or bound as we call it now that you're allowed to build non legal lists.)
I looked only at points, and then I built what I thought looked ballin'.
I knew I wanted a large amount of Ironstriders (they are terrible, by the way, but so so awesome.) so I saw there was an ironstrider formation. It has 2 units of melee striders and 1 unit of shooting striders. That's cool, so I got 3+3 melee striders and 2 shooting striders. 8 striders, ordered.
Then I knew I wanted a good amount of Dunecrawlers because they look fantastic. (They turned out to be the most powerful unit in the Skitarii codex, (without using drop pod allies,) and definitely something any powergamer could ally in if he wanted to get some anti-air, but I didn't know that at the time)
I saw that they had a save that got 1 point better for each Dunecrawler in the unit, and they could have at most 3 models in one unit. So 3 seemed like a good number. So I bought 3.
I loved the metal colander heads of the Infiltrators, so I knew I had to get 10 of those for a nice big unit that looks badass.
And then I filled it up with some troops, and I loved the long ridiculous arquebusses (they're pretty gak at an extra 30 points a pop, to be honest) so I made sure to model 3 guys with the arquebus in a unit of 10 rangers, which left me with 2 units of Vanguard with some bits and bobs (like a plasma caliver in each unit, and those are fantastic) and god damnit if I didn't land smack dab right on 1850 points like my group always plays at. With some gear changes I can easily make it the 2000 points we also do occasionally.
I keep fielding the same army over and over (well, with Skitarii, there isn't that much choice so the people I play against always know what they're facing with me. The time since I got my Skitarii army is still the best time I've had in 40k.
TL;DR
Buy the book, look at only points and models and skim the rules a little bit. Then make an army you think looks badass on the table, and you will 1) not be powergaming. 2) not have very easy games and 3) will never get tired of seeing your army fielded.
And here's some shameless self promotion just because I love my Skitarii that much. My Dunecrawlers.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/04 10:14:10
If you don't build lists with the objective of being horrible then you'll be fine to play against.
Remember that there is plenty of crazy stuff in the other armies too and that they will also be updated and made more powerful. (except CSM and SoB )
I play a Tzeentch flying circus (3 FMC's, no Fateweaver) with summoning, not as horrid as it sounds. Most of my games are pretty close, except when someone spams something that is REALLY bad against FMC's (like S4 barrage ).
Eldar have been pretty good since 4th edition. They were decent in 5th and then rocked out with 6th and now 7th.They have taken their specializations to the extreme by giving every aspect warrior an extra special based on their equipment. This made the force more varied but at the same time encouraged spamming of certain units *cough* warp spiders *cough*. Eldar have a lot of S: 6 shooting weapons and a modest amount of S: 8. Their infantry can kill any infantry and creatures with their basic gun, and there are enough S: 6 weapons on so many units that light to medium vehicles get glanced to death super quick.
3rd ed wraithlords and wave serpents were pretty fething lol. Stock weapon being assault 2 in the days where everything was rapid fire was pretty nice too. (old rapid fire rules were awful, shoot twice at half range or once at full range if you were stationary, if you moved you could only fire one shot at half range iirc.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/04 12:05:27
Eldar have always been one of the strongest armies throughout all editions, from 2nd to 7th. The only time when they were just an ok army (not underpowered, just not among the top but still decent) was 5th edition because they were still using their 4th ed. codex. They've always had certain perks and overpowered units easy to spam and abuse, and they will likely stay like that forever, at least as long as Phil Kelly works for GW.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
slip wrote: shoot twice at half range or once at full range if you were stationary, if you moved you could only fire one shot at half range iirc.
Man, it just hits me how poorly balanced some things were and continues to be when I see that. It would be so easy to make it much more interesting. Here's a rough suggestion without any playtesting;
Give them BS4, and make the variables modifiers. -1BS if you moved before shooting. -1BS if you fire twice. That's it. Now you have the option to move and throw a hail of fire at BS2, or stand and do it at BS3, or move and take normal shots at BS3, or just take aimed shots while standing still at BS4. So much versatility, so many ways to use a basic unit while balancing pros and cons.
Make grenades "disorient" targets that take a wound, even if it's saved until the end of their following round. Now they're -1BS and have to choose their shooting all the way down to BS1. What tactical response do you take now? WHAT DO?!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/04 12:40:04
slip wrote: shoot twice at half range or once at full range if you were stationary, if you moved you could only fire one shot at half range iirc.
Man, it just hits me how poorly balanced some things were and continues to be when I see that. It would be so easy to make it much more interesting. Here's a rough suggestion without any playtesting;
Give them BS4, and make the variables modifiers. -1BS if you moved before shooting. -1BS if you fire twice. That's it. Now you have the option to move and throw a hail of fire at BS2, or stand and do it at BS3, or move and take normal shots at BS3, or just take aimed shots while standing still at BS4. So much versatility, so many ways to use a basic unit while balancing pros and cons.
Make grenades "disorient" targets that take a wound, even if it's saved until the end of their following round. Now they're -1BS and have to choose their shooting all the way down to BS1. What tactical response do you take now? WHAT DO?!
As awesome as that sounds to play it would add even more complexity to the game. How are you gunna keep track of what enemies got concussed? I imagine Missiles would work the same way as grenades in that matter. It would actually give Eldar a reason to take missile launchers.
slip wrote: shoot twice at half range or once at full range if you were stationary, if you moved you could only fire one shot at half range iirc.
Man, it just hits me how poorly balanced some things were and continues to be when I see that. It would be so easy to make it much more interesting. Here's a rough suggestion without any playtesting;
Give them BS4, and make the variables modifiers. -1BS if you moved before shooting. -1BS if you fire twice. That's it. Now you have the option to move and throw a hail of fire at BS2, or stand and do it at BS3, or move and take normal shots at BS3, or just take aimed shots while standing still at BS4. So much versatility, so many ways to use a basic unit while balancing pros and cons.
Make grenades "disorient" targets that take a wound, even if it's saved until the end of their following round. Now they're -1BS and have to choose their shooting all the way down to BS1. What tactical response do you take now? WHAT DO?!
As awesome as that sounds to play it would add even more complexity to the game. How are you gunna keep track of what enemies got concussed? I imagine Missiles would work the same way as grenades in that matter. It would actually give Eldar a reason to take missile launchers.
Well, as I said, that was all just ramblings off the top of my head, and if it were a serious proposition, stuff like that would be excellent points and would be the kind of things that need to be ironed out. The disorient was just an example on how adding something to it can really throw a spanner in the works for whatever plan you had for that unit, but that the (what I consider) fluent way of handling it would allow you to adapt with slight disadvantages. Which is how I'd like to play this game.
The point being "we are all here capable of spinning things off the top of our heads that are at least equally good to GW rulesets." And that's tragic.
But you know, doesn't matter. It's not how the game is set up, so why spend energy on it.
I was thinking how maybe if a unit shoots at you you get to return fire at -1 BS and a further -1BS if it was beyond your weapons normal range. It would happen simultaneously so both sides would get to fire their full amount. The defending player can only shoot back once though. no multiple shootbacks for multiple units shooting at you.
Xerics wrote: I was thinking how maybe if a unit shoots at you you get to return fire at -1 BS and a further -1BS if it was beyond your weapons normal range. It would happen simultaneously so both sides would get to fire their full amount. The defending player can only shoot back once though. no multiple shootbacks for multiple units shooting at you.
Semi-conscient action in the enemy phase, in the vein of Overwatch? I like that. It goes a long way to solving some of the problems with the You Go, I Go-platform. Just implementing it in the current ruleset would make shooting armies like Tau *even more dominant* though. But that's the thing. Nothing should ever be built on top of what we have at the moment. It should be rebuilt. But screw it, we're derailing the thread. Back on topic; Eldar are a great choice. More people will cry about it here than in real life. Follow your dreams. Don't let your dreams be dreams.
Unless you live where Ilive. Then if you play Eldar you will never get a game because the only gamestore in town is run by a guy who scares everyone from playing against Eldar or Tau by telling them its a waste of their time to play since you're just gunna lose to them anyways... I havnt gotten to play a game in that store for almost a year. I have to invite my friend over and roll out my Gamemat and play against Necrons to get any kind of game in.
Xerics wrote: Unless you live where Ilive. Then if you play Eldar you will never get a game because the only gamestore in town is run by a guy who scares everyone from playing against Eldar or Tau by telling them its a waste of their time to play since you're just gunna lose to them anyways... I havnt gotten to play a game in that store for almost a year. I have to invite my friend over and roll out my Gamemat and play against Necrons to get any kind of game in.
Xerics wrote: Unless you live where Ilive. Then if you play Eldar you will never get a game because the only gamestore in town is run by a guy who scares everyone from playing against Eldar or Tau by telling them its a waste of their time to play since you're just gunna lose to them anyways... I havnt gotten to play a game in that store for almost a year. I have to invite my friend over and roll out my Gamemat and play against Necrons to get any kind of game in.
Can you blame them?
Yes. That sounds like a ridiculous thing to do. I mean if they decide on their own not to play against someone, then fine. But actively telling people not to play certain armies in the game that you sell models for? What if they aren't even powergamers and are playing funsies lists?
Martel732 wrote: Is there a funsie Eldar list? Pretty sure I could grab random units out and trash the best possible BA list. (Whatever the hell that would even be)
Aspect Warriors spam? Using one of each Aspect.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Martel732 wrote: Is there a funsie Eldar list? Pretty sure I could grab random units out and trash the best possible BA list. (Whatever the hell that would even be)
Aspect Warriors spam? Using one of each Aspect.
Still better than all the 7.0 codices hands down. A single unit of warp spiders beats the crap out of many BA units. Or Ork units. Or Tyranid units.
Xerics wrote: Unless you live where Ilive. Then if you play Eldar you will never get a game because the only gamestore in town is run by a guy who scares everyone from playing against Eldar or Tau by telling them its a waste of their time to play since you're just gunna lose to them anyways... I havnt gotten to play a game in that store for almost a year. I have to invite my friend over and roll out my Gamemat and play against Necrons to get any kind of game in.
Can you blame them?
Yes. That sounds like a ridiculous thing to do. I mean if they decide on their own not to play against someone, then fine. But actively telling people not to play certain armies in the game that you sell models for? What if they aren't even powergamers and are playing funsies lists?
I am assuming he is making that suggestion based on his observations of his areas Eldar/Tau players, IE he sees more cheese then a dairy farm. But this is merely a guess.
I had the privilege of playing against a well-known GT player at NOVA last year, and when I asked what other armies he played his response was: "I've pretty much always played Eldar, except in 5th edition when I played Space Wolves".
That sums it up pretty nicely.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Martel732 wrote: Is there a funsie Eldar list? Pretty sure I could grab random units out and trash the best possible BA list. (Whatever the hell that would even be)
Aspect Warriors spam? Using one of each Aspect.
Still better than all the 7.0 codices hands down. A single unit of warp spiders beats the crap out of many BA units. Or Ork units. Or Tyranid units.
Man, you're closing in on 14000 posts of what I can only assume has been relentless BA whine. There's dedication and then there's... that.
so the people I play against always know what they're facing with me. The time since I got my Skitarii army is still the best time I've had in 
)
).
