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Howdy!

My first post here on Dakkadakka so if I've put this in the wrong place please move it.

I'm in a bit of a strange situation. I've recently started playing again after about 15 years away from the game. The reason I started again was because I got a friend into the game via the Dark Vengeance box.

We've played maybe 10 games, he is playing Chaos with the addition of Warp Talons and Terminators. I'm playing Space Marines with additions of the Start Collecting!, Centurions, Devastators, Assault Marines and Sniper Scouts.

Point wise we are always the same (usually 750p since we don't use his Chosens) but I have never lost. It's never even been close.

One reason I see why this is the case is because all my purchases has been made in order to exploit one or more of his weaknesses. His limited purchases has mainly been based on whats cheap (money) and looks cool.

It's gotten to the point where I worry that he will lose the joy and I might once again end up without anyone to play with.

He really likes CSM and I doubt he is willing to spend money on a new army. I can't really make myself lose because if he noticed that it would be very bad. Next step as I see it is to proxy maybe my centurions and let him use them as obliterators or something similar.


Any suggestions what to do?

1) Let him proxy whatever, even if it means running a Coke can as something. Maybe he'll find something nice and eventually buy that model. Tell him to start with a Heldrake. They are basically the one reply CSM has to Space Marines, so he should be using that. (Thousand sons are supposed to be an answer to SM with their AP3, but sweet Omnissiah are they too expensive to be anything but point sinks.)

2) Trade armies for some games. This lets you get a feel of why the marines are so overbearing, and it lets him get some powerful games in. And if it turns out you can reverse sweep him using his army, then you need to give him pointers too. Try not to be overbearing on that though. It can easily feel like you're talking down to him, especially as there are only the two of you. But if he actually is not as skilled a general as you, then he really doesn't need the handicap of playing the clearly worse army.

3) The CSM codex is notoriously lacking. It is trash tier at the moment, to the point of uselessness. I run pure Skitarii, and even I feel like I have a better codex than CSM.

You can suggest a few things to your friend.
3a) Ally in demons. They're slightly better off and fit the army thematically like a glove.

3b) Run your CSM using the SM codex. It's no stretch of the mind to just keep building your awesome looking Chaos army, but use the more up to date Space Marine rules. When a new CSM codex drops, then he can go back to using his "real" codex.

3c) If you stay with CSM, go Nurgle where ever you can. In a lacking codex, at least marks of Nurgle are still making units decent by giving them a higher average Toughness than any other army in the game.

and 4) Yes, your army sounds like he needs some oblits. However you proxy it, make sure he gets to try them.

In general, he has gotten a very weak army and picked the parts that are considered bad in that army. And in a small game like 750... the disadvantage is palpable.

Terminators are generally slagged on for being too many points for too little dakka, even in big armies. I can only imagine the crap of compounding that with being small lists and then the CSM codex tax of everything being too expensive on top.

He is fighting with two hands and his nuts tied behind his back.

 Purifier wrote:
1) Let him proxy whatever, even if it means running a Coke can as something. Maybe he'll find something nice and eventually buy that model. Tell him to start with a Heldrake. They are basically the one reply CSM has to Space Marines, so he should be using that. (Thousand sons are supposed to be an answer to SM with their AP3, but sweet Omnissiah are they too expensive to be anything but point sinks.)

2) Trade armies for some games. This lets you get a feel of why the marines are so overbearing, and it lets him get some powerful games in.

3) The CSM codex is notoriously lacking. It is trash tier at the moment, to the point of uselessness. I run pure Skitarii, and even I feel like I have a better codex than CSM.

You can suggest a few things to your friend.
3a) Ally in demons. They're slightly better off and fit the army thematically like a glove.

3b) Run your CSM using the SM codex. It's no stretch of the mind to just keep building your awesome looking Chaos army, but use the more up to date Space Marine rules. When a new CSM codex drops, then he can go back to using his "real" codex.

3c) If you stay with CSM, go Nurgle where ever you can. In a lacking codex, at least marks of Nurgle are still making units decent by giving them a higher average Toughness than any other army in the game.

and 4) Yes, your army sounds like he needs some oblits. However you proxy it, make sure he gets to try them.

In general, he has gotten a very weak army and picked the parts that are considered bad in that army. And in a small game like 750... the disadvantage is palpable.

Terminators are generally slagged on for being too many points for too little dakka, even in big armies. I can only imagine the crap of compounding that with being small lists and then the CSM codex tax of everything being too expensive on top.

He is fighting with two hands and his nuts tied behind his back.

Thank you for some excellent suggestions. I will discuss them all with him and see what he likes! This gives me hope

Cayhn wrote:
Thank you for some excellent suggestions. I will discuss them all with him and see what he likes! This gives me hope

Hey, also remember you're clearly a hardcore player that enjoys building lists to defeat (and probably expect others to do the same to you) and there's nothing wrong with that. But your friend isn't. Maybe get your next model based on it looking awesome rather than trying to fit it in to defeat your friend

People commonly call Centurions bad, but those people aren't facing 750p armies using points on Terminators. Those Centurions are a really smart addition to your army. Be less smart

On a side note, I absolutely love Centurions, and when I was building a CSM army I bought 3 and converted them to oblits.

 Purifier wrote:

Cayhn wrote:
Thank you for some excellent suggestions. I will discuss them all with him and see what he likes! This gives me hope

Hey, also remember you're clearly a hardcore player that enjoys building lists to defeat (and probably expect others to do the same to you) and there's nothing wrong with that. But your friend isn't. Maybe get your next model based on it looking awesome rather than trying to fit it in to defeat your friend

People commonly call Centurions bad, but those people aren't facing 750p armies using points on Terminators. Those Centurions are a really smart addition to your army. Be less smart

On a side note, I absolutely love Centurions, and when I was building a CSM army I bought 3 and converted them to oblits.

I've never even considered that before! But when I think about it I realize that I always analyze my games and think "how could I've won that easier" Thanks for the insight! I will definitely go more good looking (I love the centurion models as well) and less optimized.

Yes, I've recently not even used them since they do too much damage on their own. Thanks

Lol i don't know, marine models are pretty bland looking. The onlyvariation i really see is their vehicles. Although a land raideris just a giant rhino they have dreadnaughts and landspeeders as well. Maybe try less Optimal units against him. Something like Scout Marines or Assault Marines. He has warp talons for crying out loud at least let him get to see what melee looks like.

 Xerics wrote:
Lol i don't know, marine models are pretty bland looking. The onlyvariation i really see is their vehicles. Although a land raideris just a giant rhino they have dreadnaughts and landspeeders as well. Maybe try less Optimal units against him. Something like Scout Marines or Assault Marines. He has warp talons for crying out loud at least let him get to see what melee looks like.

I have a weak spot for them, first squad I grabbed as a 12 year old was 5 metal scouts. Loved them ever since.

Yep, I will not optimize, but he will be pissed if he thinks I'm "letting" him win. So can't go too bad either.

As a Chaos player myself, I can honestly say that he's 'letting' you win by not only choosing probably the worst army faction but also by going out of his way to choose some of the worst units within it. There's casual / uncompetitive, and then there's shooting yourself repeatedly in the nuts before you even start...

Do you discuss your games afterwards? Might be worth picking a few battles apart in detail and working out where he can do better with what he's got etc. Tell him what you're most worried about him doing with the units in his list - get him thinking more tactically.

Good luck. It's not nice to find out that your army that you've spent a lot of time and money on is cack.

Friends don't let friends play chaos.

Crispy78 wrote:
As a Chaos player myself, I can honestly say that he's 'letting' you win by not only choosing probably the worst army faction but also by going out of his way to choose some of the worst units within it. There's casual / uncompetitive, and then there's shooting yourself repeatedly in the nuts before you even start...

Do you discuss your games afterwards? Might be worth picking a few battles apart in detail and working out where he can do better with what he's got etc. Tell him what you're most worried about him doing with the units in his list - get him thinking more tactically.

Good luck. It's not nice to find out that your army that you've spent a lot of time and money on is cack.

Yes, we always discuss afterwards and end up in roughly the same conclusions. He need something like Obliterators and something that can actually reach my devastators (He doesn't have enough Warp Talons to actually get to my heavy support before something shoots them down). He probably needs more AP2 weapons as well. I also think that he has been taking a more defensive approach lately, because he feels that his units just aren't good enough. He tried using the Helcult against me last time, unfortunately I was very lucky with the dice and his camped Helbrute didn't a single thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
Friends don't let friends play chaos.

I've offered him my Necrons army, but he likes the CSM aesthetics too much

He needs some daemons, stat. It's really not much of a stretch, they used to share the same codex. Also, he needs to leave those terminators at home, he's better off just trying to play you at 500 points or something.

Maybe look into playing kill team or warbands? Maybe it'll level the playing field a little.

 slip wrote:
He needs some daemons, stat. It's really not much of a stretch, they used to share the same codex. Also, he needs to leave those terminators at home, he's better off just trying to play you at 500 points or something.

Maybe look into playing kill team or warbands? Maybe it'll level the playing field a little.

Yes, Kill Team is a very good way to get more fair games. The best part about it is that there is no HS, so no Centurions. Also, since every model is independent, it severely limits how many kills you can get per turn. Even if you put 3 unsaveable wounds onto a Chaos Marine, you can only ever kill that 1 Marine.

Cayhn wrote:
his Helbrute

Man, your friend really is a glutton for punishment. He is really digging into the dregs of a bad codex. The Helbrute is another one of those CSM units that would just barely be worth it at half he cost.

 WarbossDakka wrote:

 slip wrote:
He needs some daemons, stat. It's really not much of a stretch, they used to share the same codex. Also, he needs to leave those terminators at home, he's better off just trying to play you at 500 points or something.

Maybe look into playing kill team or warbands? Maybe it'll level the playing field a little.

Yes, Kill Team is a very good way to get more fair games. The best part about it is that there is no HS, so no Centurions. Also, since every model is independent, it severely limits how many kills you can get per turn. Even if you put 3 unsaveable wounds onto a Chaos Marine, you can only ever kill that 1 Marine.

Well, sure, but inequalities also come out when you place models in basically 1v1 situations against each other in kill team. If the CSM player used the SM codex, however, and they ran Killteam, that has the potential to be incredibly even, if nothing else.

Kill Team sounds interesting! Have to read up on it.

Haha, yeah, his army isn't very good but he got the Chaos part of the DV box for free from me. So he doesn't like spending, only bought the talons box and the termies. I think proxy a bunch of units will give him some much needed punch and I will avoid using grav

The Chaos half of Dark Vengeance, while pretty cool models themselves, are hardly a competent fighting force in gaming terms. In fact, the Dark Vengeance box isn't balanced at all. If someone goes and pick the sub-optimal Chaos units from DV and then add Terminators (another sub-optimal choice) and Warp Talons (one of the worst units in the game right now), well, no surprise they'll be on the losing side 99% of the time.

It's perfectly understandable why your friend has done so, though. The Dark Vengeance models are pretty neat, Warp Talons are a gorgeous looking unit, and Chaos Terminator aren't half bad. From my point of view, in terms of aesthetics and visual potential, no other army comes even close to CSM in 40k. That's actually one of the reasons they're my main army. But in terms of rules? Among the worst armies in the current state of the game, if not the worst outright.

 Korinov wrote:
if not the worst outright.

While I find the salt of some CSM players almost unbearable to listen to, objectively, I don't think it's unfair to call CSM the worst codex at the moment.
It's not that there aren't good picks. There are some decent to good things in there. Like Nurgle bikers that can hold their ground against most anything but the latest armies (They're made to look silly by Shuriken spam and... well all of Tau,) Chaos Spawn that can tar pit just about anything and if it isn't a melee-specific unit they are fighting they will probably eventually have killed them without taking much damage themselves, and even Cultists who are useless on paper but holds an objective as well as a unit 4 times their price if you have enough of them.
But then they have all these units that aren't even mediocre. They aren't even bad. They're so utterly useless that you just keep flipping the page back and forth, trying to figure out what is that you have missed that makes their price so high.
The codex's overall weak balance (which wasn't that weak when it came out and the Heldrake became the thing that everyone cried about) pales in comparison to the absolutely horrendous internal balance that makes the codex effectively half the size it looks to be by making a lot of units unusable even in a relaxed gaming setting.

I sometimes "forget" to do all my shotting, or my tanks end up being shot in the ass with a bad movement phase.

The suggestion to swap armies for a few games is certainly a good one, but even that might not help if you are really good and your friend is not. Our guys were a bit upset at our resident Necron player a couple tournaments back (just in-group but still a tourney) but he didn't win just because Necrons are strong, he is also a very very good player. He played a game after the event where he gave his necrons away and used the Ork army that fared bad all evening. He crushed his Necrons.

Spetulhu wrote:
The suggestion to swap armies for a few games is certainly a good one, but even that might not help if you are really good and your friend is not. Our guys were a bit upset at our resident Necron player a couple tournaments back (just in-group but still a tourney) but he didn't win just because Necrons are strong, he is also a very very good player. He played a game after the event where he gave his necrons away and used the Ork army that fared bad all evening. He crushed his Necrons.

I don't think I could be good since I've only played against 4 players and 3 of those were 15 years ago. I do think I have a better plan how I want the game to go, but thats probably about it. But trying to swap armies is interesting!

Cayhn wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The suggestion to swap armies for a few games is certainly a good one, but even that might not help if you are really good and your friend is not. Our guys were a bit upset at our resident Necron player a couple tournaments back (just in-group but still a tourney) but he didn't win just because Necrons are strong, he is also a very very good player. He played a game after the event where he gave his necrons away and used the Ork army that fared bad all evening. He crushed his Necrons.

I don't think I could be good since I've only played against 4 players and 3 of those were 15 years ago. I do think I have a better plan how I want the game to go, but thats probably about it. But trying to swap armies is interesting!

He does bring up a good point, and one that I did think about. I even made an edit at the same time that you replied in my original response.
While you may not be an experienced player compared to some of the maniacs on this forum, to you two it's really the relative experience between you that matters. So you don't have to be great, you just have to be better

There's also a lesson in Spetulhu comment to be taken from the guy that stomped his own Necron. He knew his Necron inside and out. he knew what weaknesses his army had and what to exploit. Obviously, it sounds like he is really good, but he will get a further edge if his opponents think he won only by playing his army because it was silly strong. They will just rush headlong into whatever he brings, with no mind to playing the tactics that he has built his army around, because in their minds the army is unbeatable.
So he knows his own army's weaknesses, his opponent doesn't know how to use its particular strengths and will play recklessly because he thinks the army he is playing can't be beat.

It's a lot of layered reasons, that make him able to stomp his own army with abandon. You and your friend aren't going to have each of those variables be as brutally stark, as none of you are a highly experienced player with what is probably loads of playtesting his list like that Necron guy, but there's still something to be said for it. If your friend believes it's just gonna be a reverse stomp now that he has the good models, he might play worse than he is actually capable of. And losing with "the good army" might be very demoralising.
It's just something to look out for. Psychology is a bitch.

Get yourself some blood angels.

One thing you could look at is house rules. Controversial, but one thing our little group has kicked around is giving Warp Talons no scatter on deep strike (which makes their blind attack more reliable.)

Martel732 wrote:
Get yourself some blood angels.

Kind of a weak thread derail attempt. Should have mentioned Eldar or Tau as well.

I'm being snarky, not trying to derail.

I got back into the game and brought 2 people with me, I chose CSM and they chose Eldar and Necrons. I also am much older now, and while I still care about winning, I care more about using models that look amazing on the table. I play with 3 hellbrutes usually, and always warp talons, they are my favorite model, and a bunch of other subpar Choas units just because I love the look.

When we play I usually get tabled, so what we do is let me get an extra 500 or so points depending on how big the game is, and it helps a little bit with playing them, maybe have you play 500 and he plays 750 and see how that works out? It doesn't really help my win rate too much, but it does keep me in the game and I actually get to kill things rather then be 6-8 points down by the end of turn 3 with no models left on the board lol.

Maybe Jancoran can help with CSM.

Extra points is one way to go.

XvReaperXv wrote:
I got back into the game and brought 2 people with me, I chose CSM and they chose Eldar and Necrons. I also am much older now, and while I still care about winning, I care more about using models that look amazing on the table. I play with 3 hellbrutes usually, and always warp talons, they are my favorite model, and a bunch of other subpar Choas units just because I love the look.

When we play I usually get tabled, so what we do is let me get an extra 500 or so points depending on how big the game is, and it helps a little bit with playing them, maybe have you play 500 and he plays 750 and see how that works out? It doesn't really help my win rate too much, but it does keep me in the game and I actually get to kill things rather then be 6-8 points down by the end of turn 3 with no models left on the board lol.

The problem with that is that whenever I've gotten clear cut handicaps like that, it's felt like a pretty hollow victory if you do happen to win.
Tweaks by houserules to things that really should have been there from the start (like the deep strike suggestion above, or even allowing the Warp Talons to have their grenades back that I believe they had in the previous edition?) feels a lot more like fixing GWs problem than giving me a handicap. Of course then you have to ask yourself where is the line drawn. Am I still losing because the rules are STILL bad against me, or is it because I'm just not as good?

 Purifier wrote:

Cayhn wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The suggestion to swap armies for a few games is certainly a good one, but even that might not help if you are really good and your friend is not. Our guys were a bit upset at our resident Necron player a couple tournaments back (just in-group but still a tourney) but he didn't win just because Necrons are strong, he is also a very very good player. He played a game after the event where he gave his necrons away and used the Ork army that fared bad all evening. He crushed his Necrons.

I don't think I could be good since I've only played against 4 players and 3 of those were 15 years ago. I do think I have a better plan how I want the game to go, but thats probably about it. But trying to swap armies is interesting!

He does bring up a good point, and one that I did think about. I even made an edit at the same time that you replied in my original response.
While you may not be an experienced player compared to some of the maniacs on this forum, to you two it's really the relative experience between you that matters. So you don't have to be great, you just have to be better

There's also a lesson in Spetulhu comment to be taken from the guy that stomped his own Necron. He knew his Necron inside and out. he knew what weaknesses his army had and what to exploit. Obviously, it sounds like he is really good, but he will get a further edge if his opponents think he won only by playing his army because it was silly strong. They will just rush headlong into whatever he brings, with no mind to playing the tactics that he has built his army around, because in their minds the army is unbeatable.
So he knows his own army's weaknesses, his opponent doesn't know how to use its particular strengths and will play recklessly because he thinks the army he is playing can't be beat.

It's a lot of layered reasons, that make him able to stomp his own army with abandon. You and your friend aren't going to have each of those variables be as brutally stark, as none of you are a highly experienced player with what is probably loads of playtesting his list like that Necron guy, but there's still something to be said for it. If your friend believes it's just gonna be a reverse stomp now that he has the good models, he might play worse than he is actually capable of. And losing with "the good army" might be very demoralising.
It's just something to look out for. Psychology is a bitch.

True and I probably think more about my strategy than he does, considering how much of a strategy game nerd I am. I've played them all

I actually suggested to him an hour ago that maybe we should swap armies some time just so he can get a better feel of were my weaknesses are. I have a good grasp of both armies since I read codexes and rule books for fun. He is a good loser, so I think he will manage even if he loses with my army. We shall see, I will go easy. Next game we have decided that he will play obliterators, helldrake and using his chosens and marines as noise marines to give a bit extra punch. Will be interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XvReaperXv wrote:
I got back into the game and brought 2 people with me, I chose CSM and they chose Eldar and Necrons. I also am much older now, and while I still care about winning, I care more about using models that look amazing on the table. I play with 3 hellbrutes usually, and always warp talons, they are my favorite model, and a bunch of other subpar Choas units just because I love the look.

When we play I usually get tabled, so what we do is let me get an extra 500 or so points depending on how big the game is, and it helps a little bit with playing them, maybe have you play 500 and he plays 750 and see how that works out? It doesn't really help my win rate too much, but it does keep me in the game and I actually get to kill things rather then be 6-8 points down by the end of turn 3 with no models left on the board lol.

I wouldn't mind, but hes kinda strict regarding keeping to the rules. He doesn't want an edge like that it seems. We are trying to get a third friend into the game, so he will probably ally with my other friend using my Necrons. That could give him a bit more of a chance. Could even let them run a 100 points above me.

Cayhn wrote:
noise marines to give a bit extra punch. Will be interesting.

As with most things in that codex, they are wildly overcosted, but I think that's a good idea for your little localised meta. Get a flamer on the champion (or whatever they call their flamer. Massive Keytar, probably or some sh*t) and stick them in a Rhino.

Going to the original question, I had a similar issue - I have a friend who is good at making a decent force on paper, but plays them very poorly. Think Blood Angels whose Death Company/Sanguinary Guard dance *away* from the target or predators that waste their shots against a lone jinking jetbike across the table. Out of 5-6 games, I won all but one, and that was a draw.

So it ended up being that I need to counter bad tactics with bad tactics - I made it a mental game. "Is there any way poorly favored X unit could win Y, and how?" I think it helped, as did talking recaps after every game about what worked and what didn't, what could've happened.

 Purifier wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
if not the worst outright.

I don't think it's unfair to call CSM the worst codex at the moment.

Does everyone seem to forget that Codex: Orks exists? At least CSM have some decent builds. Orks only work with the forgeworld biker character and even then they are outshone by literally every other bike army out there. (ie, Nurgle Bikers, White Scars, Ravenwing, Scat Bikes, etc). Orks are easily the worst army to date.