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 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Let is be known that I firmly disagree with the whole "Thousand Sons are rubbish" thing. They annihilate meqs in my experience

I got excited for a moment. I initially read that as "I firmly agree with Traditio."

I was disappointed when I realized that this is not what your post said.

At any rate, I didn't see any mention of Thousand Sons in the OP.

Also, Thousand Sons are overcosted. Sternguard also annihilate MEQs and everything else that's not a tank or a GMC. For 1 point cheaper. Without the need to buy an overcosted psyker.

 Traditio wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Let is be known that I firmly disagree with the whole "Thousand Sons are rubbish" thing. They annihilate meqs in my experience

I got excited for a moment. I initially read that as "I firmly agree with Traditio."

I was disappointed when I realized that this is not what your post said.

At any rate, I didn't see any mention of Thousand Sons in the OP.

Also, Thousand Sons are overcosted. Sternguard also annihilate MEQs and everything else that's not a tank or a GMC. For 1 point cheaper. Without the need to buy an overcosted psyker.

Sternguard are also pretty good at killing tanks as well, just give em' some combi-meltas. It's pretty dang good against tanks, just ask my Guard.

War Kitten wrote:Sternguard are also pretty good at killing tanks as well, just give em' some combi-meltas. It's pretty dang good against tanks, just ask my Guard.

Yes. Suicide melta-sternguard in drop-pods are excellent against tanks.

But then it's not really a fair comparison to Thousand Sons.

Cayhn wrote:


We've played maybe 10 games, he is playing Chaos with the addition of Warp Talons and Terminators. I'm playing Space Marines with additions of the Start Collecting!, Centurions, Devastators, Assault Marines and Sniper Scouts.

Point wise we are always the same (usually 750p since we don't use his Chosens) but I have never lost. It's never even been close.

One reason I see why this is the case is because all my purchases has been made in order to exploit one or more of his weaknesses. His limited purchases has mainly been based on whats cheap (money) and looks cool.

Both of these are your problems. You're not even trying to make it fair, (list tailoring) especially with the uneven codices.

Show him in the right directions for effective army lists (what few there are for chaos) and try to help him out. Also, tone down your list heavily. Even fluffy space marine lists can stomp all over chaos, and yours is specifically made to beat his so it's even worse. Try to get more narrative and/or more interesting game types that give him a chance and make it fun for both parties, even if it's a loss for him.

Wow, hadn't noticed that this thread was alive again.

First of all, a lot have happened since I started this thread. My friend have actually opened up his purse a bit. Now he is still just getting models that he like the look of, except the obliterators that he bought. Those were meant to give some much needed support. He have also added a forgefiend, terminators and a sorcerer.

I've read a lot here about list-tailoring and I hear ya. I just got back in the game and I actually had no idea it was bad form. It's just the way I was introduced into the game the first time, I didn't really "know" I could play it any different. I play more fluffy now and we have even used an IK in each army some games.

He finally decided to learn and use battlescribe on his own. Something I didn't mention before, because I didn't consider it, was that I put together both our lists. Something that of course give me a ridicilous advantage by knowing his army better than he did.

I've also started playing Ork, Necrons and Tyranids against him. Forcing me to learn new things whilst he keep optimizing his army.

We have also upgraded the terrain, got an imperial sector, wall of martyrs and a bunch of other stuff.

I'm still winning, but not always by much. Lately he's been having ridicilous bad luck with objective rolls whilst I've had luck. But he really loves the games now so it's going in the right direction.

Necrons are really strong. One of the top tier codices. So playing Necrons against Chaos Space Marines is basically "stealing candy from a baby".

Orks and Tyranids are probably when the battles are close or he wins correct?

Glad he didn't quit and is still trying and playing and not discouraged.

Just REMEMBER. When you play Space Marines and Necrons against SM you have a point advantage. So when playing Necrons and SM you play with 900 points and he plays with 1000. Then see how the games go. Then tweak it. Maybe you need 950 points or maybe even 850.

Don't worry about both of you playing with 1000 each or what ever. You are getting cheaper and better powers/weapon gear for the same points he pays but are crappier than yours.

Only time to play with same points is when you play Nids and or Orks.

Davor wrote:
Necrons are really strong. One of the top tier codices. So playing Necrons against Chaos Space Marines is basically "stealing candy from a baby".

Orks and Tyranids are probably when the battles are close or he wins correct?

Glad he didn't quit and is still trying and playing and not discouraged.

Just REMEMBER. When you play Space Marines and Necrons against SM you have a point advantage. So when playing Necrons and SM you play with 900 points and he plays with 1000. Then see how the games go. Then tweak it. Maybe you need 950 points or maybe even 850.

Don't worry about both of you playing with 1000 each or what ever. You are getting cheaper and better powers/weapon gear for the same points he pays but are crappier than yours.

Only time to play with same points is when you play Nids and or Orks.

Can't remember the closest, but yeah, Orks was one of them.

He absolute refuse any difference in points when we play. I guess when he win he wants to win "fair". I've tried to implement house rules that could help him as well, but he wants to play it by the book.

Hey, welcome back. Glad you guys are finding more of a middle ground. BTW, if you must play equal points, there are inefficient SM units, deployments and/or tactics you can employ to keep the game closer.

Cayhn wrote:
Can't remember the closest, but yeah, Orks was one of them.

He absolute refuse any difference in points when we play. I guess when he win he wants to win "fair". I've tried to implement house rules that could help him as well, but he wants to play it by the book.

Fair enough. Does he know about the "imbalance" that the 40K point system is? If not, I would tell him about it, and show him this thread that he is fighting an up hill battle and you have "the easy button" compared to what he plays. That being said I can understand where he is coming from about playing "the same" even when it's not the same. Victory will be OH So much sweeter.

That being said, not much more I can recommend that what others haven't said. Also let your friend know about the new "get started set" for CSM, just in case he doesn't have those minis, or wants more of them but at a great price.

Swap armies.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Hey, welcome back. Glad you guys are finding more of a middle ground. BTW, if you must play equal points, there are inefficient SM units, deployments and/or tactics you can employ to keep the game closer.

Good point, i've tried using Marneus in a 750p game, pointed him in the direction of noise marines when I had a lot of camo cloaked scouts and so on.

What units do you suggest I go for next to keep down the efficiency?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

Cayhn wrote:
Can't remember the closest, but yeah, Orks was one of them.

He absolute refuse any difference in points when we play. I guess when he win he wants to win "fair". I've tried to implement house rules that could help him as well, but he wants to play it by the book.

Fair enough. Does he know about the "imbalance" that the 40K point system is? If not, I would tell him about it, and show him this thread that he is fighting an up hill battle and you have "the easy button" compared to what he plays. That being said I can understand where he is coming from about playing "the same" even when it's not the same. Victory will be OH So much sweeter.

That being said, not much more I can recommend that what others haven't said. Also let your friend know about the new "get started set" for CSM, just in case he doesn't have those minis, or wants more of them but at a great price.

Yeah, he does and he sometimes jokingly complains about having "the worst codex".

I'm gonna play more Tyranids than SM for a while now so I do believe things will be closer.

Reserves are a good way to force inefficiency, simply by splitting a chunk of your force off.

The points system works best for matching up two fairly diverse collections against each other. Of course if you've tailored your collection to defeat his, it is going to win most of the time.

As such, because your army is tailored to be good against his, but his army is going to be basically 'okay' against everything else, I think the easiest fix is for you to play with a points handicap, until you find a points level where you feel you two are actually competing.

Try and come up with some custom scenarios that put him at an advantage and you at a disadvantage. For example, let him defend a platform with a very narrow choke point which you have to take. Make a home rule to help him recover his losses every turn, follow Necron Reanimation Protocol rules, say the forces of Chaos have favored his squad.

Cayhn wrote:
I'm gonna play more Tyranids than SM for a while now so I do believe things will be closer.

Now if you play that army against other people Like SM, Eldar Necrons etc, then you will know how your friend feels like lol.

Cayhn wrote:
Wow, hadn't noticed that this thread was alive again.

First of all, a lot have happened since I started this thread. My friend have actually opened up his purse a bit. Now he is still just getting models that he like the look of, except the obliterators that he bought. Those were meant to give some much needed support. He have also added a forgefiend, terminators and a sorcerer.

I've read a lot here about list-tailoring and I hear ya. I just got back in the game and I actually had no idea it was bad form. It's just the way I was introduced into the game the first time, I didn't really "know" I could play it any different. I play more fluffy now and we have even used an IK in each army some games.

He finally decided to learn and use battlescribe on his own. Something I didn't mention before, because I didn't consider it, was that I put together both our lists. Something that of course give me a ridicilous advantage by knowing his army better than he did.

I've also started playing Ork, Necrons and Tyranids against him. Forcing me to learn new things whilst he keep optimizing his army.

We have also upgraded the terrain, got an imperial sector, wall of martyrs and a bunch of other stuff.

I'm still winning, but not always by much. Lately he's been having ridicilous bad luck with objective rolls whilst I've had luck. But he really loves the games now so it's going in the right direction.

Glad to hear things are better and you have sorted some things out but without wanting to sound too harsh it does sound like you two are totally different people when it comes to the game so a long running thing between you is always going to end badly. You are tailoring what you buy to beat him. He is budgeting and then only buying what he likes with little or no thought to how that will work against YOU. Those two in combination are jsut not compatible.