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We know from fluff that there is approximately one space marine for each planet, a thousand marines in a chapter.

From this, we can conclude that Space Marines are a hyper-elite, surgical precision drop force used to achieve specific objectives, and strike where the enemy is weakest. We see this in the fluff and with their core strategy of drop pod insertion, getting the job done and getting out.

So why is it that so much of the astartes' arsenal is composed of what would presumably be utterly suicidal siege equipment?

In a setting where a fortified city might easily have a BILLION defenders, what bloody use in the world would be a Thunderfire Cannon, centurion suit or Demolisher, particularly when the Space Marines are nearly always supported by Guard troops which are basically built to sit back and shell away? How many of those can a 1000-man chapter maintain? fifty? I don't care if you can kill 20-30 heretics with every shot, if you only had 50 siege tanks, it'd take decades to kill a billion people in a fortified position. Heck, they can put an identical demolisher cannon on a Leman Russ, which is (presumably) far easier to make and maintain than a Vindicator.

Space Marines attacking a fortified position at all seems like the utmost level of suicide. All you need to do is play a game of 40k to see how disastrous it is to have space marines facing an army of equivalent size and strength to them. All but the most flawless 40k victory is an unspeakable tragedy to a space marine chapter, with centuries old relic equipment destroyed left and right and 1-2% losses of the overall strength of the chapter.

So why have this stuff? Space Marine artillery? Lumbering siege drill equipped suits of armor? Heavy tanks?

No wonder the iron hands are all missing half their head and 1-2 limbs. They're not the "smart, calculating" space marines, they're the biggest bloody morons in the Adeptus Astartes.

because in the fluff they are leagues more durable, and overall more Tanky then they are on the table top. Simple as that. As for why they have all this on the table? 'cause it's cool.

Because in the fluff, Space Marines are really good at taking fortifications. Legions like the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists were almost entirely dedicated to siege operations.
Now you'll rarely see a Chapter or Legion storming an enemy fortress on their own, they will be supported by the Guard, but Space Marines form the spearhead because they are just that much better at breaking through walls than the Guard is.
Space Marines with Guard support could break a fortification in weeks, where the Guard alone might need years.
Space Marines don't just do surgical drop strikes. Space Marines are skilled in every form of warfare. The tabletop doesn't represent the fluff well. Space Marines are much, much more powerful in the fluff than on the tabletop.

Also, 1-2% losses would be nothing to a Chapter. Chapters can easily recover such losses.

So in short, the Space Marines have so much siege equipment because they are really good at sieges.

The Astartes are not killing the one billion defenders in your example, they're using the Centurions and Vindicators to blast a hole in the defenses of the enemy, rush in and kill whatever their target was and then getting out again. It's overwhelming localized firepower, deployed via Thunderhawks and Drop Pods.

People sum the thing up pretty much already. Plus rules are less intented to follow the fluff than making our toys shine on the table.

basicly I like to think of it this way, ever hear how a Great White Shark attacks a seal?

they move in fast, from underneeth, hitting the belly with massive force, then they move away. and let the seal bleed out. that's kinda how the Astartes operate. maximum force to stun and cripple the target, they then let bleed out (or in the Astartes case)handle the rest. but... it's a foregone conclusion once that hit's been made, the target will die

A lot of the time, the Marines' siege gear is left over from when they were deployed like regular armies during the Great Crusade.

Marines-as-special-forces is kind of a redesign forced by the necessity of 100-man fighting units.

The only true siege weapon they have is a Vindicator, Whirlwind and other such weapons have a multitude of other applications.

the_scotsman wrote:

From this, we can conclude that Space Marines are a hyper-elite, surgical precision drop force used to achieve specific objectives, and strike where the enemy is weakest. We see this in the fluff and with their core strategy of drop pod insertion, getting the job done and getting out.

No. They strike where they'll do the most damage. In your billion-defender city example they aren't going to conduct a drop assault against a battalion commander's tent outside, they're gonna strike the command and control bunker for an entire city district likely followed by electric and water distribution hubs, all of which are known weaknesses that will be heavily fortified. Vindicators and Whirlwinds are for dealing with the external fortifications, Thunderfires and Centurions are for dealing with internal strong points. Why use a Vindicator instead of a Leman Russ Demolisher? Because a Vindicator is designed for orbital insertion hanging off the bottom of a Thunderhawk Transporter or the larger Astartes Landing Craft whilst a Leman Russ is not.

Because sometimes the place where you're doing a surgical strike is the most fortified area of the planet.

 TedNugent wrote:
Because sometimes the place where you're doing a surgical strike is the most fortified area of the planet.

by sometimes you mean "useally"

Because killing huge monsters with siege equipment is much more fun then killing them with bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just imagine commander issuing to leave all the heavy weapons at home just because they are "siege only" weapons.

Also, even if the Imperial Guard vehicles and equipment would be equally well-suited to siegebreaking, generally the Imperial Guard aren't there when the Marines turn up.

Due to the Space Marine's innate durability, they serve as a potent vanguard as well as special forces.

Their job is to punch a hole in the enemy defenses, and secure the area so the main imperial force can go through. That's why they have siege equipment.

Prolonged combat would be disastrous though, so ideally they should withdraw when their mission is done.

Because they apply precise firepower in a seige to break a single target and form the vanguard for the army to follow.

They open the door, the guard etc do the rest. There armour and weapons are ideal to lead a first wave close combat assault.

okay, to sum all of this up:
The Space Marines are the demolition charge that explodes on the side of the dam, the Imperial Guard is the water waiting to rush through.

Also, fluff-wise, 5 Marines is enough to topple a planet of billions. Every planet in 40k operates like the game of chess: take the king, the game is over, there are never any heirs.

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:
okay, to sum all of this up:
The Space Marines are the demolition charge that explodes on the side of the dam, the Imperial Guard is the water waiting to rush through.

Yep, good way to put it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Also, fluff-wise, 5 Marines is enough to topple a planet of billions. Every planet in 40k operates like the game of chess: take the king, the game is over, there are never any heirs.

There won't be, because the IG will finish the job and enforce compliance.

See the Siege of Vraks, the Guard does the legwork, the SMs hit less defended targets (spaceport, and they lost 300 Marines or so), and spearhead assaults along with Grenadiers (it went poorly for the Red Hunters and much better for the Red Scorpions and the GK)

 Bobthehero wrote:
See the Siege of Vraks, the Guard does the legwork, the SMs hit less defended targets (spaceport, and they lost 300 Marines or so), and spearhead assaults along with Grenadiers (it went poorly for the Red Hunters and much better for the Red Scorpions and the GK)

Surely, you mean more defended targets? Marines are able to crack much harder nuts than the Guard can.

Another analogy (the dam was a good one) is that the Guard are the large, flat surface of a steel warhammer while the Marines are the tiny adamantium spikes upon that surface.

Less defended, the Guard hit the hard stuff.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Less defended, the Guard hit the hard stuff.

Hmm. I think you're mistaken, but hey.

The two Reds hit the breach that was previously bombed to oblivion and they were massively backed by Kriegsmen, the only time Marines acted alone was when they attacked the space port that was lightly defended and on the other side of the battlefield

 Brennonjw wrote:
because in the fluff they are leagues more durable, and overall more Tanky then they are on the table top. Simple as that. As for why they have all this on the table? 'cause it's cool.

indeed consider marines in lore to all be coated in an extra layer of plot armour that gives them a 3+ ro-rollable vs everything and anything that instagib any unit on a 6 to hit folloed by a 6 to wound.

njal stormcaller tanked a wounded wraithknight in lore, on table he would have been ownzoned

i recall some story where the IG are trying to break to a heavily fortified bunker line for weeks with no luck due the reinforced positions.

Then a single Blood angels Assault marine squad comes and jumps in ripping the defenders to shreds in a few minutes short of work, when the IG reaches the final bunker the marines are killing the last defenders in such a gory way the guardsman at charge it's even terrified like hell. And thanks the emperor the Astartes are on their side.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The two Reds hit the breach that was previously bombed to oblivion and they were massively backed by Kriegsmen, the only time Marines acted alone was when they attacked the space port that was lightly defended and on the other side of the battlefield

Ah okay, you're talking about a specific example. Sorry, I thought you were making a general statement about the setting as a whole. My bad.

Ita not also just power. Its speed. Space marines can hut so much faster and crack and exploit the weak point far better than guard ever could.

A rapid, precise mortal wound

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A lot of the time, the Marines' siege gear is left over from when they were deployed like regular armies during the Great Crusade.

Marines-as-special-forces is kind of a redesign forced by the necessity of 100-man fighting units.

This is my thought, as well. Though I would imagine that most of that gear (that didn't fit their new mission profiles) they didn't squirrel away for a rainy day ended up going to the newly-minted Imperial Guard.


I agree that the Adeptus Astartes is more of a "high speed, low drag" rapid response force.

I dont know what you guys are mumbling about all these siege weapons. All I see with Marines is grav weapons spammed on bikes, centurions, tacs in rhinos etc...

Centgurions ARE siege weapons