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We all know the jetbike spam list that Eldar utalise for tournament play who are usually accompanied by a Farseer.

However, the choices between:

Runes of Fate
Telepathy
Divination

The usual process that Eldar players tend to go for the primaris powers of Fate and Divination that allow the bikes to re-roll hits.

However, many tournament players also like to use Telepathy because it has all round powerful cards including the infamous invisibility.

So, the question is: what kind of tactics does everyone use for a mostly bike list?

If it's a single Farseer and no other psykers then I prefer to just go for 1 roll in Runes of Fate... if it gives me fortune or eldritch storm then I keep that roll and take the primarus with my 2nd roll. If it doesn't give me Fortune or Eldritch storm then I take the primarus and roll in Telepathy for my second roll. If I don't get something useful there then I take the primarus there too.

In either of the above cases, I'll make my 3rd roll on Divination to take the primarus, unless I roll something uniquely useful for the game I'm playing.

The idea is that I'll end up with 2 utility spells and a decent offensive spell or I'll end up with 3 good utility spells. No matter what, all the spells I roll will be useful because in all cases I'll be able to take the primarus as a backup.

I agree with what you are saying. But what about Doom? That is another very good power in my opinion, especially against vehicles that have cover. (usually glancing on 6's for example with the bikes).

The issue for me and using telepathy primaris power is that 18" is quite close to my opponent. If I am facing a combat army I don't want to get that close. Then again the thrust move could extend the gap but that isn't as reliable.

I avoid psykers because they are unreliable.

The only exceptions are Spiritseers which buff Wraithguard without d scythes really well, and psychic shriek especially with things that reduce LD.

However if you want to take them well Conceal is a must for warlock skyrunners. People rarely take them but I have done but only as a laugh. Not a serious game. If you do this then protect is ridiculous if you get it

Yes Doom is good too. A lot depends on the matchup. But in general, the above is the method I use when rolling. Usually I get something useful with my first roll and don't roll in Telepathy at all, or I notice that a power such as Elridtch storm would be REALLY handy against a Scarab farm and decide to risk my 2nd roll in Runes of Fate. It all depends really.

For most of 7th ed, I have never actually rolled any powers with my Farseer. I simply tell my opponent that I will be taking his 3 primaris powers: Guide, Prescience & Shriek. I like to build my list with set tactics and less random, so the Primaris works out pretty good and I have just enough dice with only 1 Farseer to twin-link 1 Scatterbike unit (usually the 6-man unit the Farseer is with) and then to twin-link the WK.
Sometimes I hold 1 dice aside for GhostHelm or Shriek.

Recently, however, I have been giving Telepathy a bit more attention. I still like Guide & Prescience, but I will roll on Telepathy once to get Invis or Shrouding, but if I don't get those, I just take Shriek.

Sorry let me elaborate: take 4 normal bikes windrunner jet bikes. Take scat if you like. Then give this a warlock then add 2 farseers as IC'S tank wounds with the IC jinking for a 2+/4++ unless it is a massive hit then look out sir it. Conceal this unit for a cheap ablative wound sort of death star

Ever seen a Seer Star? At least 5 far seers on bikes and a big ball of warlocks and Baha. Basically roll santics until you get Gate and cleansing flames. Then try to roll for invis and fortune for protection. A lot of damage out puts with mindwar, shrieks, storm, and cleansing flames

It really depends who you're playing against unless you're going for an all-out psychic deathstar.

For example. playing against ravenwing, admech or a shrouded heavy tyranid player? Probably are going to want perfect timing bad enough to roll 3 times on div if need be (not that the primaris is bad anyhow).

If they have ignores cover, div can also be important for forewarning.

If they lack AP 3 shooting, hit runes of fate hard. Most of the powers are pretty good but you want to fish for fortune. It will make the bikes unkillable outside of combat, especially if you get shrouding. Re-rollable 2+ jink in the open. Of course, most units don't want to not shoot, but in a smaller squad it can be really clutch. Just throw in a 50 point warlock wind rider and bam! Guaranteed shrouded. That's also great for just sitting in ruins and enjoying life.


In short, very few choices are awful. Some are definitely better than others, but most of this is situational. I do not, however, roll on telepathy for the primaris. It's not by any means a bad primaris, but it's very boom or bust (and on average, it's bust). So if I am going for telepathy (which does happen) I will usually want invis or shrouding if I don't have a warlock in the squad.

Thank you all for the suggestions. I do like Zimko's process and luke1705's advice.

The list I had in mind is a 1000 point list for a doubles tournament and Death Star units aren't allowed. So it would be just the one farseer on bike.

The list can be found in the Army List forum if you wish to add anything else to the advice?

(http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/686058.page)

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Ever seen a Seer Star? At least 5 far seers on bikes and a big ball of warlocks and Baha. Basically roll santics until you get Gate and cleansing flames. Then try to roll for invis and fortune for protection. A lot of damage out puts with mindwar, shrieks, storm, and cleansing flames

Yeah this sort of went out of fashion after 7th came out. The Deer Council was nerfed to he'll and back. Dark Eldar Baron Saccthonyx plus grisley trophies in a seer star. 7 or 8 psykers. re rollable 2+ save. Re roll failed powers and hit and run. Lots of cheddar.

Nothing anymore, now that marines get all the same powers and better ways to use them.

Also, Cleansing Flame? That power isn't very good.

tooo unreliable I will roll but usually guide, precience shriek. I still roll but short of a few options like fortune I just take primaris

Seer Council gets Fortune though. I'm not saying Space Marine Deathstars are better or worse. I'm simply pointing out it's not the same powers. Also, the psychic damage output from a Seer Council is leaps and bound better than a SM one. Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can. Dragiostars do get pretty close, but a lot of their power come from the Grav/H-Bolters.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nothing anymore, now that marines get all the same powers and better ways to use them.

Also, Cleansing Flame? That power isn't very good.

Have to disagree on Cleansing Flame. Jetbikes allow extremely good positioning for multiple squad hits. Also the joy of having Cleansing Flame'd an FMC to ground is phenomenal.

well you see, Eldar powers are good because they are eldar. and yes. the salt is real.

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

I'm assuming you meant Eldar get more. hehe.

Regardless, they can only cast 3 powers at 2+ (with Tigurius, forcing you to go with Ultramarines). Or 2 powers at 2+ (with mostly likely White Scars). All other Libbies within 12" can't cast additional powers. So unless you plain on bringing 4 libbies - having 3 libbies cast 2-3 spells, and a 4th casting on 4+'s, there is no comparison. Eldar cast on 3+ with their formation as well. They also have stones to increase they successful casts. Isn't much of a comparison when you lay out all the facts. 5 Farseers deathstars are a popular thing in my local meta and I plan on seeing plenty at Nova.

You may want to re-read Librarius Conclave.

Same.

Saythings wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

I'm assuming you meant Eldar get more. hehe.

Regardless, they can only cast 3 powers at 2+ (with Tigurius, forcing you to go with Ultramarines). Or 2 powers at 2+ (with mostly likely White Scars). All other Libbies within 12" can't cast additional powers. So unless you plain on bringing 4 libbies - having 3 libbies cast 2-3 spells, and a 4th casting on 4+'s, there is no comparison. Eldar cast on 3+ with their formation as well. They also have stones to increase they successful casts. Isn't much of a comparison when you lay out all the facts. 5 Farseers deathstars are a popular thing in my local meta and I plan on seeing plenty at Nova.

Why aren't culexus popular in your local meta then? :p

Ielthan wrote:

Saythings wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

I'm assuming you meant Eldar get more. hehe.

Regardless, they can only cast 3 powers at 2+ (with Tigurius, forcing you to go with Ultramarines). Or 2 powers at 2+ (with mostly likely White Scars). All other Libbies within 12" can't cast additional powers. So unless you plain on bringing 4 libbies - having 3 libbies cast 2-3 spells, and a 4th casting on 4+'s, there is no comparison. Eldar cast on 3+ with their formation as well. They also have stones to increase they successful casts. Isn't much of a comparison when you lay out all the facts. 5 Farseers deathstars are a popular thing in my local meta and I plan on seeing plenty at Nova.

Why aren't culexus popular in your local meta then? :p

Culexus only have one chance to cripple the seer council, any smart Eldar player would put the council on jetbike. So the assassin come in from a Droppod, fire 9 shots (suppose the warlock is large enough to be Lvl3), and lets say it caused 8 wounds, on average it 4 are unsaved, with clever Look out sir maybe leaving the two seers with one wound left each. Then come the Eldar turn, the seer council just move 12 inch away from the assassin along with other jetbikes, keep casting buff power to let Scatbikes fire somewhere 40 TL shots which will kill the assassin in return

@Ielthan, there are a few Cuxelus' running around/podded in, etc. But the Council can just reserve and come in 12", buff up, and turbo boost 36" away and ignore her for the rest of the game unfortunately.

Pod doesn't mean much when it always comes in Turn1 or has a 2/3 chance of Turn 2. If the Eldar player plays correctly, the Cuxelus is easy to mitigate.

That being said, the napkin math behind Cuxelus podding in and absorbing 18-19 warp charges on a Seer Council is 9 wounds done. It's pretty nice if you ever get it off

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

3+ with a re-roll on only failed dice is still better. Not to mention the excess volume of dice and re-rolls when dispelling that eldar get.

 Drasius wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

3+ with a re-roll on only failed dice is still better. Not to mention the excess volume of dice and re-rolls when dispelling that eldar get.

2+ is more then enough though

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Imperium can't throw the same amount of warp charges as Eldar can.

Correct, Marines get more. Fewer dice that succeed on a 2+ is more effective dice.

3+ with a re-roll on only failed dice is still better. Not to mention the excess volume of dice and re-rolls when dispelling that eldar get.

2+ is more then enough though

I think they each have their uses, Libby Conclave with Tigirius is no deniable they most efficient group / person in USING warp dices. But Eldar Seer councils has their edge in psychic warfare (against the said Libby Conclave, GK or Daemon factory, who came close / match / surpassed them in Warp charge pts generated) in terms of making the most important power TRULY go off or dening that truly nasty power which the enemy manifested.
Lets think about the following scenario, the Seer council is using 4 dices to cast Invisibility, and got two 3+ rolled, other three are double ones, while their Daemon oppoent still has 12 dices ready to deny it, very unlucky right? don't worry, reroll ONLY the two fails and maybe getting ONE MORE 3+ , the Daemon player then try to deny with all 12, and just rolled two 6s (which are average), so the Invisibility went off and the unit is save for another turn. IF this scenario ever happen to the Libby Conclave, they could do Nothing and can just watch the Daemon player deny the Invisibility, then chop their intended protecting Squad to ribbons with that Daemon Prince.

Moreover, the Seer council has way superior mobility to get away from harm, if an enemy Cluexus Droppoded just 5 inches from Tigirius and his fellow Libbys, they are as good as DEAD, however, if the same assassin Droppoded just 1 inches away from the jet Seer council, don't worry, just have enough member survive his alpha shooting attacks with 4+ inv saves, then move 12 inches away and keep casting spells!

Completely agree with Neophyte. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad I play Imperium and I'm glad I'm running LC, but, IMO, I think Seer Council is the best phychic star in the game. It can put out a tremendous amount of damage.

The OP asked what makes it competitive and I believe is a hybrid between mobility, damage output, and the ability to be invincible - short of cuxelus with the firepower to support her. But even then, there are ways to play around it.

The beginning of this post listed valid concerns and they each have their own playstyle by taking primaris powers and not going with the risky random power options, but I don't see why you can't have it both ways.

Roll hoping to get what you need, then fall back on the primaris powers. 15+ chances to get what you need on 5 Farseers isn't that crazy of a gamble. Each ML3 psyker has a 55%+ chance of getting the power they want. Then you have warlocks with guaranteed 2+ cover when jinking (with Conceal) as a fall back if they fail to get Fortune/Invis.

After all their psychic powers, they can charge something to avoid enemy shooting and hit and run out with Baro. At least that's how the stars near me run them.