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As we all know, the recent update to the WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement was a phoned-in attempt to bring it in line with the Decurion-esque detachments of 7.5 edition which included the uncalled removal of one of the signature Ork formations of the Green Tide and added "new" but redundant flyer formations.

This was what I would have done if we had a do-over (again).

Base WAAAGH! Ghazghkull rule changes:

Biggest An Da Best - Make it so that the Warlord with this special rule must issue and accept challenges when possible but in return allow him to re-roll all failed to hit rolls in a challenge. If the Warlord with this special rule kills an enemy character in a challenge, he gets to re-roll all failed to wound rolls in CC for the rest of the game. Gives it a bit more oomph and a reflection of the Warlord's fighting prowess.

Da Boss Iz Watchin' - Make it so the modifier is -1/+1 to the mob rule table depending on the player's choice. That would make it worth the tax of D3+3 S4 hits.

Orkimedes Kustom Gubbinz:

Choppa of Da Ragnaork - Keep it the same points, change the grand destiny rule to give a turn by turn bonus to the model as he passively channels the WAAAGH! energy of the battle into the choppa.

T1 - Nothing
T2 - The wielder gains the Hatred special rule.
T3 - The wielder gains Smash.
T4 - The wielder gains +1 initiative and attack
T5+ - The wielder gains +1 strength (So for every turn after T5, he gains another +1 S for T6, then another +1S for T7.)

The Big Bosspole - As is, it's largely fine for what it does.

The Supa-Cybork - For the price tag it really should provide something more useful than Eternal Warrior as FNP/Relentless is frankly kind of useless given Orks' access to Painboyz and Mega Armour. I would change it to either give a 4+ FNP save or a 4+ invuln. alongside EW and relentless.

Da Killa Klaw - Make it so that all its attacks inflict instant death on a to wound roll of a 5+ instead of exchanging it all for one attack. 40 points makes it so its almost double the price of a power klaw already, may as well make it worth the crazy price tag. This does, however, make it a much more efficient weapon if combined with the lucky stikk compared to the eadwompa's kill choppa which I suggest gets boosted to be AP3 base and shred by default.

Mega Force Field - All you have to change is to make it give all units, rather than models, within 6" a 4+ invuln. and its a worth considering its monumental 75 point price tag. Personally I feel that the KFF should extend out of the vehicle rather than only protect the vehicle itself but given the precedent set I'll leave it as is with just the change to units.

Kill Dakka - One of the most head scratching relics in terms of how bad it is, either make it 10 points and allow the player to choose which of the six profiles he wants to use for the rest of the game prior to deployment OR make it 20 points and allow the wielder to choose the profile of the weapon between the 6 options every turn.

Warlord Traits:

1. Supa-Shootist: The Warlord has BS3 and has the split fire special rule.

2. Waaagh-Mongerer, good as is.

3. Madboy. The Warlord and his unit have the Rage special rule.

4. A Kunnin' Plan. Pick a unit in your army prior to deployment, that unit gains the Infiltrate special rule.

5. Kallin' in a Favour. Alright as is.

6. Dead 'Ard The Warlord gains FNP, or a +1 bonus to an existing FNP save.

Great WAAAGH-Band Detachment:

Da Big Boss and Da Great WAAAGH! are fine as is. However change it so that the Green Horde grants rage (or an additional attack for those who already have rage) for all ork units that make a successful charge against the enemy, This way all the sub formations in the detachment get some benefit out of it even if its a walker or a stormboy and not above 10 models (where things like Meganobz and Nobz would almost never be).

Command formations:

Council of WAAAGH!
- Ghazghkull Thraka
- 0-1 Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik
- 0-1 Big Mek
- 2 Warbosses
-1 unit of Nobz

Oddboyz
- 1-5 Weirdboys, Painboys, Meks or Big Meks

Core formations:

WAAAAGH-Band!
- 1 Warboss (May be replaced by Grukk or Ghazghkull, in the case of Ghazghkull you may not take a Council of WAAAGH! and a WAAAGH! Band lead by Ghazghkull in the same detachment/army)
- 0-1 Mek
- 0-2 Units of Nobz/Meganobz
- 1 unit of Gretchin
- 2-6 units of Boyz

Change the greenskin hordes to give all Ork units in the formation the hammer of wrath special rule when successfully charging an enemy unit. Change stampede to making all Ork units in this formation roll 3 dice and choose the highest for charges.

Goff Killmob
- 1 Warboss (Grukk or Ghazghkull may replace the Warboss in this formation)
- 1-3 units of Nobz
- 1-3 units of Boyz
- 0-1 Gorkanaut
- 0-3 Deff Dreadz
- 0-3 Killa Kanz

Auxiliary Formations

Combine the Dakkajet, Blitza Bomma and Burna Bomma Skwadronz together into one formation. Make it so that its 1-3 of any one plane, and they gain the following:

Dakkajets - Get Shred and Rending on their Supa Shootas
Blitza Bomma - Re-roll results on the Boom Bomm table, and their bombs strength are increased by 1.
Burna Bomma - Units hit by one or more skorcha missiles or their bombs suffer an additional D6 S5 AP4 ignores cover hits at the end of the turn.

Ghazghkull's Bully Boyz
- 1-3 Meganobz units

Da Vulcha Skwad
- Boss Zagstruk
- 1-3 Units of Stormboyz
Change "Dead on Target...ish" to allow assault from deep strike but count as a disordered charge if they do so. Also add a clause to Vulcha Skwad where all stormboyz in this formation add +1S to their profile (not stormboy nobz).

Badrukk's Flash Gitz
- Kaptin Badrukk
- 1-2 units of Flash Gitz
Change Kustomized to making all the Flash Gitz snazzguns into being twin-linked instead since it's a lot easier to keep track of.

Blitz Brigade
-3-5 Battlewagons
Change Crush 'Em to say that any vehicle or unit that suffers a ram or tank shock from a vehicle in this formation suffers D3 S10 AP2 hits.

Boss Snikrot's Red Skull Kommandos
- Boss Snikrot
- 2-4 Kommandos

Add a clause to "Strike from the Shadows" where they are allowed to charge from reserves but if they do so it counts as a disordered charge.

Gorkanaut Krushin' Krew

Add a special rule called "Overcharged Boostas" where in their desire to get to grips with the enemy first, the Gorkanaut krews have modified the servo-motors to go as fast as possible, to the detriment of the Gorkanaut's structural stability. Gorkanauts in this formation move up to 12" during the movement phase rather than 6". If they do so, they may only snapfire their weapons and must roll a die at the end of each movement phase. On a roll of 1, the Gorkanaut pushes itself too far and loses a HP.

Dred Mob
- 1 Big Mek
- 1 Painboy
- 0-2 Gorkanauts/Morkanauts
- 1-5 Deff Dreads
- 1-5 Killa Kanz

Add Move Through Cover as one of the special rules in "Wall of Steel".

That's as much as I can cover for now without actually rewriting the core rules for Ork codex. What do you guys think? Not enough changes to the core rules or is altering the number of units involved in the formations good enough with a few rules tweaks?

A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I'd prefer if the mob rule table was just redone and the waagh supplement gave +2 making it a benefit instead of detriment.

Something like
1- unit fails morale test
2-3- if unit has a character it suffers 1d3 str4 ap-hits if not see 1 (breaking heads)
4- if unit is in combat automatically pass if not see 3
5- units of 10 or more automatically pass if not see 4
6+- unit is fearless until end of turn

Boss pole adds +1 to roll.
Ghaz supplement adds +2 to roll but increases the breaking heads result +3 hits

gungo wrote:
I'd prefer if the mob rule table was just redone and the waagh supplement gave +2 making it a benefit instead of detriment.

Something like
1- unit fails morale test
2-3- if unit has a character it suffers 1d3 str4 ap-hits if not see 1 (breaking heads)
4- if unit is in combat automatically pass if not see 3
5- units of 10 or more automatically pass if not see 4
6+- unit is fearless until end of turn

Boss pole adds +1 to roll.
Ghaz supplement adds +2 to roll but increases the breaking heads result +3 hits

That would work too, I never understood why the result of 1 was a good thing (if you're in CC) and the 4-6 result was more often than not crap. Definitely a good way of getting around the Ghazghkull formation issue.

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I am not saying bring the orks up to cheese level, I am just pointing out that if the idea of the Supplement was to bring orks up to 7.5 codex level so they can actually play against them, then 1 it spectacularly failed, and 2 your buffs don't do this either, it just makes broken crap in the supplement roughly playable.

*cough* Blatant self insert *cough*

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I am not saying bring the orks up to cheese level, I am just pointing out that if the idea of the Supplement was to bring orks up to 7.5 codex level so they can actually play against them, then 1 it spectacularly failed, and 2 your buffs don't do this either, it just makes broken crap in the supplement roughly playable.

Right, and in classic GW fashion it looks like they can't write rules for any of the "bad guy" factions within the same level as any of the "order factions" since the Chaos formations, while nice, have been completely overshadowed by the crazy Angels of Death and psychic powers supplement for SM.

And with regards to your latter comment, I at least succeeded in that regard then, since it gives Orks some modicum of a fighting chance, however little, compared to what we have now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimmor wrote:
*cough* Blatant self insert *cough*

I've seen your thread and its pretty cool with regards to giving different playstyles for Orks. Unfortunately, my intent for this was to patch up the supplement that it should have been originally rather than make up an entirely new one, so it's certainly not as expansive in terms of what units you can employ in formations. I do think there should be some equivalent of the Warphead Coven that you have in your thread in the Ghazghkull Supplement though given that Ghazghkull was described in the book as having a whole bunch of Weirdboyz following him around channeling the WAAAGH! Energy and having the Ork Gods speak through them at one point.

 Grimskul wrote:

I've seen your thread and its pretty cool with regards to giving different playstyles for Orks. Unfortunately, my intent for this was to patch up the supplement that it should have been originally rather than make up an entirely new one, so it's certainly not as expansive in terms of what units you can employ in formations. I do think there should be some equivalent of the Warphead Coven that you have in your thread in the Ghazghkull Supplement though given that Ghazghkull was described in the book as having a whole bunch of Weirdboyz following him around channeling the WAAAGH! Energy and having the Ork Gods speak through them at one point.

Feel free to use it. Weirdboyz need more love.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I've seen your thread and its pretty cool with regards to giving different playstyles for Orks. Unfortunately, my intent for this was to patch up the supplement that it should have been originally rather than make up an entirely new one, so it's certainly not as expansive in terms of what units you can employ in formations. I do think there should be some equivalent of the Warphead Coven that you have in your thread in the Ghazghkull Supplement though given that Ghazghkull was described in the book as having a whole bunch of Weirdboyz following him around channeling the WAAAGH! Energy and having the Ork Gods speak through them at one point.

Feel free to use it. Weirdboyz need more love.

No kidding, I still feel the loss of Ol' Zogwort pretty badly. Nothing like trolling dem beakies or Eldar on their supposed psychic prowess than turning them into a squig.

This looks really good. I've been gearing myself up to ditch GW's lackluster attempt at rules and just doing friendly battles with an assortment of fan-made stuff I find online from people who both care and know what they're doing.

I just wanted to say I like the buff to challenges your detachment gives. Pretty much all warbosses have a PK so are effectively I 1, and orks can't have a true inv so despite being these CC monsters who regularly engage in one on one challenges to maintain their rank in the Waaagh, they really suck in one on one challenges!

Secondly, I would just ditch the Bonus BS trait altogether. Warbosses at best can take what, a kombi-rokkit? Even if they did, the shooting bonuses would be effective for like one shot. Nobody is kitting up their warlords for shooting, nor would they for a 1/6 chance of being slightly less useless at it. Might as well just make it +1 WS.

There is no point in "fixing" this supplement.
Just ditch it.

If you like to fix orks go and play with the 4th edition codex and do an army wide point of 30%.

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I love all the additions they seem balanced and fair. BUT BUT BUT they aren't toning down Eldar, marines, tau, necrons. They aren't going to have new releases scaling the game back and they aren't going to errata these armies weaker. With this in mind I love how all ork players myself included think this way as we want to be fair. But We do need to be thinking how to bump them in line with the upper tier armies. Only OP counters OP. I'd like to start seeing ork threads that offer up ideas in this line of thinking.

mhalko1 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I love all the additions they seem balanced and fair. BUT BUT BUT they aren't toning down Eldar, marines, tau, necrons. They aren't going to have new releases scaling the game back and they aren't going to errata these armies weaker. With this in mind I love how all ork players myself included think this way as we want to be fair. But We do need to be thinking how to bump them in line with the upper tier armies. Only OP counters OP. I'd like to start seeing ork threads that offer up ideas in this line of thinking.

This just causes more power creep (or leaps as with 7.5) and further widens the gap between the basic core stats (say for example the boltgun, plasma gun, shoota, etc) and what the top tier fancy thing can do. I would love to be able to plop my Orks and give the Tau a good smashing but it shouldn't come having army wide 4+ FNP boyz with 24" movement,12 shots of Str 7 AP3 from a 100 point flyer, and a 10 HP super heavy walker firing 3 shots of S9 AP1 large blasts and Str D melee attacks with a 4++ rerolling invuln save and AV 14 that cost 300 points. All the crazy 1-up escalation does is turn the game into an even more crazy rules dumpster fire until they bring out the AV 16 immune to haywire/armorbane/melta mega heavies that are -3 to the D table to counter all the cheap GMC and Super Heavies. I know this is hyperbole but the sad part is its probably not far outside GW's realm of game design because they seem to understand game balance about as much as much as an Ork understands peace.

Personally I like the concept of guardsmen being useful for more than bullet stops and parking their butts on an objective hoping the big stompy super heavy doesn't notice them and turn the spot into a smoldering crater. Things like GMCs, Super Heavies, Death Star units with rerolling saves, invisibility, etc just further pushes the base line down to even more irrelevance and makes everything need to be over the top stupid to compete. The counter to OP is to not tolerate it and smack that gak with the nerf bat and demand sensible game design. Sadly I feel like I am in the minority in wanting things like infantry to be relevant and not having the battle field look like a game of MechWarrior (in the PC games infantry and non Mechs where entirely irrevelent and merely something that needed to be swatted away for a second before returning to fighting other Mechs).

 Vankraken wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I love all the additions they seem balanced and fair. BUT BUT BUT they aren't toning down Eldar, marines, tau, necrons. They aren't going to have new releases scaling the game back and they aren't going to errata these armies weaker. With this in mind I love how all ork players myself included think this way as we want to be fair. But We do need to be thinking how to bump them in line with the upper tier armies. Only OP counters OP. I'd like to start seeing ork threads that offer up ideas in this line of thinking.

This just causes more power creep (or leaps as with 7.5) and further widens the gap between the basic core stats (say for example the boltgun, plasma gun, shoota, etc) and what the top tier fancy thing can do. I would love to be able to plop my Orks and give the Tau a good smashing but it shouldn't come having army wide 4+ FNP boyz with 24" movement,12 shots of Str 7 AP3 from a 100 point flyer, and a 10 HP super heavy walker firing 3 shots of S9 AP1 large blasts and Str D melee attacks with a 4++ rerolling invuln save and AV 14 that cost 300 points. All the crazy 1-up escalation does is turn the game into an even more crazy rules dumpster fire until they bring out the AV 16 immune to haywire/armorbane/melta mega heavies that are -3 to the D table to counter all the cheap GMC and Super Heavies. I know this is hyperbole but the sad part is its probably not far outside GW's realm of game design because they seem to understand game balance about as much as much as an Ork understands peace.

Personally I like the concept of guardsmen being useful for more than bullet stops and parking their butts on an objective hoping the big stompy super heavy doesn't notice them and turn the spot into a smoldering crater. Things like GMCs, Super Heavies, Death Star units with rerolling saves, invisibility, etc just further pushes the base line down to even more irrelevance and makes everything need to be over the top stupid to compete. The counter to OP is to not tolerate it and smack that gak with the nerf bat and demand sensible game design. Sadly I feel like I am in the minority in wanting things like infantry to be relevant and not having the battle field look like a game of MechWarrior (in the PC games infantry and non Mechs where entirely irrevelent and merely something that needed to be swatted away for a second before returning to fighting other Mechs).

Spot on. I feel the same way and its sucks that infantry in general have fallen by the wayside. Nowadays unless you have 2W are T5 with jink, are on a bike or a whole bunch of other things you're not considered worthy of doing anything else but squat on objectives. Even for main factions like marines, normal marines are rarely seen by their staples, now its centurions and bikers for dayyyyyys. It's a far cry from 5th ed. when almost everything had a reasonable chance of hurting another's unit, even if it was a deathstar. If they brought it back to its skirmish roots it'd be a lot easier to handle rather than pushing even further with the arms race that GW is promoting.

Big stompy things have their place, but that's either in Apocalypse/Epic as the scale they should be in or as an extremely rare part of your army that only sees play in above average points value.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
A lot of good ideas in here, but rather then putting the on the same level as the 7.5 codices this merely makes more of the supplement playable. Nothing in here brings Orks to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Tau/SM

That was kind of my intent, I'd prefer if Tau/Eldar/Necrons be toned down (as unlikely as that may be) rather than Orks be over-inflated in power just to keep power parity. Also given that I'm fixing the supplement and not the core Ork rules there's a limit to how much I could fix given some of the inherent flaws in the Ork codex that I can't directly address via the existing formations.

The last thing I want are Orks to become the new OP standard for cheese. I'd rather have a well internally balanced and okay external balance middle tier army than a top one.

I love all the additions they seem balanced and fair. BUT BUT BUT they aren't toning down Eldar, marines, tau, necrons. They aren't going to have new releases scaling the game back and they aren't going to errata these armies weaker. With this in mind I love how all ork players myself included think this way as we want to be fair. But We do need to be thinking how to bump them in line with the upper tier armies. Only OP counters OP. I'd like to start seeing ork threads that offer up ideas in this line of thinking.

This just causes more power creep (or leaps as with 7.5) and further widens the gap between the basic core stats (say for example the boltgun, plasma gun, shoota, etc) and what the top tier fancy thing can do. I would love to be able to plop my Orks and give the Tau a good smashing but it shouldn't come having army wide 4+ FNP boyz with 24" movement,12 shots of Str 7 AP3 from a 100 point flyer, and a 10 HP super heavy walker firing 3 shots of S9 AP1 large blasts and Str D melee attacks with a 4++ rerolling invuln save and AV 14 that cost 300 points. All the crazy 1-up escalation does is turn the game into an even more crazy rules dumpster fire until they bring out the AV 16 immune to haywire/armorbane/melta mega heavies that are -3 to the D table to counter all the cheap GMC and Super Heavies. I know this is hyperbole but the sad part is its probably not far outside GW's realm of game design because they seem to understand game balance about as much as much as an Ork understands peace.

Personally I like the concept of guardsmen being useful for more than bullet stops and parking their butts on an objective hoping the big stompy super heavy doesn't notice them and turn the spot into a smoldering crater. Things like GMCs, Super Heavies, Death Star units with rerolling saves, invisibility, etc just further pushes the base line down to even more irrelevance and makes everything need to be over the top stupid to compete. The counter to OP is to not tolerate it and smack that gak with the nerf bat and demand sensible game design. Sadly I feel like I am in the minority in wanting things like infantry to be relevant and not having the battle field look like a game of MechWarrior (in the PC games infantry and non Mechs where entirely irrevelent and merely something that needed to be swatted away for a second before returning to fighting other Mechs).

Spot on. I feel the same way and its sucks that infantry in general have fallen by the wayside. Nowadays unless you have 2W are T5 with jink, are on a bike or a whole bunch of other things you're not considered worthy of doing anything else but squat on objectives. Even for main factions like marines, normal marines are rarely seen by their staples, now its centurions and bikers for dayyyyyys. It's a far cry from 5th ed. when almost everything had a reasonable chance of hurting another's unit, even if it was a deathstar. If they brought it back to its skirmish roots it'd be a lot easier to handle rather than pushing even further with the arms race that GW is promoting.

Big stompy things have their place, but that's either in Apocalypse/Epic as the scale they should be in or as an extremely rare part of your army that only sees play in above average points value.

I feel the same way but THEY (GW) are not going to do that end of story. So our thinking has to change

Exactly, GW is incapable at this point in reversing the creep, all we can reasonably hope for is a new level of balance at the SM/Eldar/Tau/Necron level. Anything else is basically just wishful thinking.

Keep in mind that we all thought Eldar were going to get hit with the nerf hammer for the last 2-3 Editions and instead they get buffed.

 Grimskul wrote:

gungo wrote:
I'd prefer if the mob rule table was just redone and the waagh supplement gave +2 making it a benefit instead of detriment.

Something like
1- unit fails morale test
2-3- if unit has a character it suffers 1d3 str4 ap-hits and automatically pass if not see 1
4- if unit is in combat automatically pass if not see 3
5- units of 10 or more automatically pass if not see 4
6+- unit is fearless until end of turn

Boss pole adds +1 to roll.
Ghaz supplement adds +2 to roll but increases the breaking heads result +3 hits

That would work too, I never understood why the result of 1 was a good thing (if you're in CC) and the 4-6 result was more often than not crap. Definitely a good way of getting around the Ghazghkull formation issue.

Ya this could make ghaz supplement better. Rolling a 4,5,6 is basically fearless and rolling a 3 makes them pass the morale test if they are 10+ Models if not they still pass if they are in combat which helps small elite squads and if they are not 10+ and not in combat that can still pass if they have a character but take 1d3+3 str 4 ap- hits. If they don't have a character are not in combat and not 10+ they will fail morale test. Orks can still fail morale tests however it's manageable if you design and play your army towards these mob rules.

This also helps the basic codex by cutting down on excessive dice rolls which is a huge ork problem and making the boss pole extremely useful by preventing automatic failing with rolls of 1 as long as a character with the boss pole is alive and only taking 1d3 breaking heads hits.

This also still makes fearless buffs such as the big boss pole, mad doc, or bully boys formation bonus still useful since its a permanent fearless and doesn't undermine those bonuses like atsknf does.

SemperMortis wrote:
Exactly, GW is incapable at this point in reversing the creep, all we can reasonably hope for is a new level of balance at the SM/Eldar/Tau/Necron level. Anything else is basically just wishful thinking.

Keep in mind that we all thought Eldar were going to get hit with the nerf hammer for the last 2-3 Editions and instead they get buffed.

Eh lets keep it to SM/Necron levels as those two are pretty close to each other. The Tau have s**t internal balance and the Eldar have s**t external balance. The SM only have a few niggling issues (grav amps and free transports) that need to be worked out, while Necrons are balanced quite well internally as well as externally.*

* Yes i get that the Decurion bothers people, but thats more of half the Codexes not having similar options and less to do with the Codex itself. The Necron codex actually has amazing internal balance as i've seen every single unit in that book used in a list that placed in the top 10 at large tournaments, and even externally its not all that awful. And before anyone freaks out my Orks have fought Necrons in a CAD and it was a glorious fight, the issue is is when pre 7.5 codexes fight the post 7.5 Codexes in their MFDs.