Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So, those guys, they need a hell of a rework, they're cool but they suck, I think one of the big problem is that they relay on a single unit (Scions themselves) to do most of the job, and that unit is severly lacking, so in that spirit, here my new and improved entry for the Stormtroopers. Disclaimer: I picked ideas from previous threads, and so you might see yours in there.
Hotshot lasguns are now Assaullt 3 18'' range with the rest unchanged
Squad composition and pts cost: Unchanged
Options:
May include up to 5 more Scions, same pts costs.
You may swap the Tempestor for a Tempestor Secundus for 10 pts
The Tempestor and Tempestor Secundus may swap their Hotshot weapons for the Bolter equivalent at no cost, they may also take all the melee and pistol options nobody takes
2 Scions may swap their hotshot lasguns for blah blah blah, new entry, Hellshot rifle: Str 7 AP 4, Heavy 1, Range 36'', Sniper, Anti-materiel (reroll failed rolls when trying to pen a vehicle) 10 pts
One Scion may carry a med-kit for the usual amount of point
A Scion may carry a portable Augur array for 20 pts. Similar to the one carred on the Taurox Prime, this one can be operated by a single Scion, but it is not as powerful, Deep striking squads only scatter 1d6 within 6'' of the array.
A Scion may carry a demolition charge at 20 pts
Everyone left may take an underbarrel grenade launcher at 3 PPM, firing either frag or krak grenades, can only be shot twice per game.
One Scion can take a vox-caster, same pts
Vox-caster: Orders have no range limit if the squad giving it and the squad receiving it have a vox caster. Snipers may coordinate their fire with a spotter squad using vox-casters. The squad spotting must forgo their shotting, allowing the snipers to take careful shots, reduce the enemy cover by 2.
Special Operations:
HALO insertion: Squads with this special operation cannot be targetted by units with the interceptor rule, on the turn they arrive, as their drop is too sudden and their signature too small to be picked up by anti-air defenses. 15 pts
Ambush!: Squads with this special operation are positioned ahead of the main striking force, hidden in terrain and wearing special Cameleoline inserts in their armor, they gain infiltrate and shrouded until they move or shoot, at which point they lose shrouded and gain stealth as long as they're in terrain 20 pts.
Flank their positions: Squads with this special operation are tasked with hitting the flanks of their foe, striking them where noone expected them to strike, forcing the enemy to hide behavior cover. The squad gain outflank and pinning on the turn they arrive. 20 pts
Melee specialsts: These squads are the best the Scions can offer in term of close combat, they gain Hit and Run and Counter-Attack. 20 pts
The squad may take a Taurox Prime or a Valkyrie as a dedicated transport
There, now this should make at least the basic unit a lot more versatile, being able to order itself and get all sort of advantages and specialisation, they also get some sort of way to reduce the enemy cover, but its kinda limited so far, because Ignore cover is the devil or something.
Now, I am not really sure about point values, and I briefly though about giving them their helmet as a part of their wargear, giving them night vision, thoughs? If anyone has more ideas similar to the vox one (squads giving eachother small buffs) I am all for it, with all the psychic shenanigans, I'd like to see squads being able to help eachothers out via whatever, for example, having infiltrators or outflanks carry an array to allow the deep strikers to come in more reliably.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/24 22:42:25
Looks mostly fine, I'd have the vox caster thing applied to regular guardsmen too though, never understood a reroll at close range.
My main points:
1) Tempestus Scions should be A:1, given that they already get two attacks in combat from their wargear. Just doesn't feel right to get as many attacks as an ork.
2) Points for the Hellshot Rifle? I'd say about 10, similar to an autocannon, loses a shot by gains extra strength on the shot.
3) HALO Insertion should be Interceptor, not Skyfire.
4) Add Valkyries as Dedicated Transports.
Aside from that, I think it's fine as is.
Somewhat viable anti-tank at range (does the Sniper rule count you as S3 when shooting vehicles still? I can't remember) and a lot stronger at close range fights. High risk, high reward playstyle.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
My suggestion: change Ambush! to grant Shrouded until they take any actions such as moving or firing, and Stealth afterwards, but only give them this bonus if they are in cover. They're going to be very hard to pick out until they actually reveal their positions, after all, but on the other hand camo won't help if they're standing in the middle of a street!
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
I'd argue that it isn't - infiltrate is very powerful - but this way it would only grant you bonuses in cover, but empower the bonuses if you are indeed in cover.
Bobthehero wrote: Hotshot lasguns are now Assaullt 3 18'' range with the rest unchanged
I'd say that Assault 2 seems more reasonable if you're going to change the profile, as orders can still boost it to three.
Bobthehero wrote: A Scion may carry a portable Augur array for 20 pts. Similar to the one carred on the Taurox Prime, this one can be operated by a single Scion, but it is not as powerful, Deep striking squads only scatter 1d6 within 6'' of the array.
Unless I'm missing something, 20 points is far too expensive. A Teleport Homer on Space Marines Scouts is 5 points, though it does require them to be on the table at the start of the turn, I think the Scions should match this, i.e- you could have them take the infiltrate mission then Deep Strike stuff in around them, but if they arrived by Deep Strike themselves you'd have to wait until the following turn.
Bobthehero wrote: Everyone left may take an underbarrel grenade launcher at 3 PPM, firing either frag or krak grenades, can only be shot twice per game.
This might get a bit complicated, personally I'd make it a squad upgrade that allows grenades to be "thrown" at a longer range, and allows more models to throw them, e.g- three or four. This avoids ammo tracking, while avoiding a squad of ten carpet bombing a whole chunk of the battlefield
Bobthehero wrote: Ambush!: Squads with this special operation are positioned ahead of the main striking force, hidden in terrain and wearing special Cameleoline inserts in their armor, they gain infiltrate and shrouded until they move or shoot, at which point they lose shrouded and gain stealth as long as they're in terrain 20 pts.
I did something similar (Shrouded till they move) for Adeptus Ministorum Missionaries and it works pretty well, but it only takes effect if they deploy within area terrain or a building, and includes being charged as a condition for losing it. Oh, I see Ashiraya already mentioned having it take effect in cover, so yeah, I agree there, it makes less sense for them to be shrouded even in the open.
I like the rest of the changes. I wonder though whether it might be worth giving them Hit & Run, or allow them to gain it as an operation (e.g- with Counter Attack and/or defensive grenades)? For me I find the scions do decent enough damage, the problem is that if they get charged they're doomed. With Hit & Run they at least have a chance of getting the survivors away to shoot some more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/14 16:07:08
I like the improved stat lines. As the best non augmented human troops in the imperium they should be good. I would be careful with giving them too many special rules and equipment though. As much as it pains me to say it, Marines should do it better.
One thing I would like them to have is the ability to take 3 special weapons if the squad numbers 10 men just like Skitarri, which would allow them to compete with veterans. That's their biggest problem in my opinion; vets overshadow them. They're cheaper, they're objective securing, and they pack more special weapons.
I also think that Scions should have Scout as standard. This would put them into the same tactical role as Space Marine Scouts and Tau Pathfinders. What they are to their respective forces, Scions should be for the Guard. Back in 5th edition, we used to have out flankers all over the show (Valkyries, Penal Legionaries, Harker's Squad, Stormtroopers). Time to bring that back a little.
And I think a Taurox Prime (and the normal one for that matter) needs a slight cost reduction. Say, 35pts for the normal Taurox, and 70pts for the Prime.
I'd say that Assault 2 seems more reasonable if you're going to change the profile, as orders can still boost it to three.
Only if you're allying IG, or using Scion as part of the IG codex. Otherwise there's a warlord trait to give extra range if you're near the warlord and did not move
Unless I'm missing something, 20 points is far too expensive. A Teleport Homer on Space Marines Scouts is 5 points, though it does require them to be on the table at the start of the turn, I think the Scions should match this, i.e- you could have them take the infiltrate mission then Deep Strike stuff in around them, but if they arrived by Deep Strike themselves you'd have to wait until the following turn.
I based my price off the augur you can buy for the Taurox Prime, which is 25 pts, but you don't scatter, shaved a few things because its supposed to be less powerful, however, you can get it deeper in enemy territory via operations.
This might get a bit complicated, personally I'd make it a squad upgrade that allows grenades to be "thrown" at a longer range, and allows more models to throw them, e.g- three or four. This avoids ammo tracking, while avoiding a squad of ten carpet bombing a whole chunk of the battlefield
I was kinda hesitant about giving limited ammo, but I couldn't really think of another way to make so people wouldn't prefer to use the grenades all the time
I like the rest of the changes. I wonder though whether it might be worth giving them Hit & Run, or allow them to gain it as an operation (e.g- with Counter Attack and/or defensive grenades)? For me I find the scions do decent enough damage, the problem is that if they get charged they're doomed. With Hit & Run they at least have a chance of getting the survivors away to shoot some more.
Never been much for close combat to be honest, its a good idea.
Future War Cultist wrote: I like the improved stat lines. As the best non augmented human troops in the imperium they should be good. I would be careful with giving them too many special rules and equipment though. As much as it pains me to say it, Marines should do it better.
Marines have tons more equipement, its simply spread out over many unit entries, it might look less bloated if I had done that in the first place
Future War Cultist wrote: One thing I would like them to have is the ability to take 3 special weapons if the squad numbers 10 men just like Skitarri, which would allow them to compete with veterans. That's their biggest problem in my opinion; vets overshadow them. They're cheaper, they're objective securing, and they pack more special weapons.
I feel the objsec isn't too bad, since most lists I've seen run a commissar, you can claim that commissar as you MTHQ and have every squad you're fielding part of an allied detachement, makes e'm troops for basically no points. I think its fine to let Vets take 3 special weapons, but perhaps Scions should have access to demolition charges
Future War Cultist wrote: I also think that Scions should have Scout as standard. This would put them into the same tactical role as Space Marine Scouts and Tau Pathfinders. What they are to their respective forces, Scions should be for the Guard. Back in 5th edition, we used to have out flankers all over the show (Valkyries, Penal Legionaries, Harker's Squad, Stormtroopers). Time to bring that back a little.
Yeah, they had special operations, but they were part of the cost of the Stormtroopers, now you just buy the specialization you want, you end up with cheaper tailored squads, or simply cheap deep striker
And I think a Taurox Prime (and the normal one for that matter) needs a slight cost reduction. Say, 35pts for the normal Taurox, and 70pts for the Prime.
I agree, mine cost me 100 pts to run a tl autocannon and a 2 shot missile launcher.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/14 16:42:50
I really like all of these. Especially with thw Hotshot lasguns being assault 3.
The only thing I would change is melee specialists.
Give another bonus (maybe +1I and +1 WS) or maybe just hammer of wrath.
I would also re-work their orders.
The Scion codex has too many redundant orders. ( get preferred enemy, get twin linked. Get crusader or fleet.)
Half of those orders (in essense) do the same thing.
Also for the order that gives rending, make it rendong vs everything instead of vehicles and monstrous creatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/14 22:39:13
*Referring to my empty beer glass*
"Is this glass full or is it empty?"
Wife: uhh.. Empty...?
"Wrong... It is full..of disappointment BECAUSE it is empty."
They're already WS4, WS5 would be too much considering not even Vanguard vets have that as their stats.
I4 would be nice, as its within human possibilities and would help with hit and run and not getting killed before they strike vs most targets. On the other hand that might just be too many buffs for 1 thing, I dunno.
Scions are BS4 not WS4. Not unless you venture to the tempestors or tempestor primes. Tempestor prime I could see being WS5 like a Lord commissar, but standard tempestors could stay 4.
In anycase, I was referring to standard Scions. WS 4 would fit their fluff nicely as well.
I look at it like this. They NEED buffs, because as they are now, they are cless survivable astartes scouts with (depending on who you ask,) a SLIGHTLY better gun.
To justify their points per model, I am not saying they should be unstoppable killing machines, but they SHOULD be able to take out more than 2 to 3 MEQs in a round of shooting.
Just generally not worth their points as they are now.
Another simple fix would be decreasing their cost to 8 or 9 ppm.
*Referring to my empty beer glass*
"Is this glass full or is it empty?"
Wife: uhh.. Empty...?
"Wrong... It is full..of disappointment BECAUSE it is empty."
Gotcha. My mistake.
That being the case, only thing I would rework are the god awful warlord traits (3 are good the other three are awful.)
and change up the orders. (Mostly okay, but a bit redundant)
And instead of the auger arrays for troops, let the Sgt carry a Tracking beacon for 10 pts.
Per Inperial Armour 4 the tracking beacon does this:
Friendly units arriving by deep strike do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6'' of a model with a tracking beacon that was on the table at the beginning of the current turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/15 19:58:27
*Referring to my empty beer glass*
"Is this glass full or is it empty?"
Wife: uhh.. Empty...?
"Wrong... It is full..of disappointment BECAUSE it is empty."
Member of 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
