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Full article here http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/10-reasons-terminators-just-became-playable-again.html



Cataphractii terminators can replace any “terminator” in any formation requirement
They are Slow & Purposeful
Cataphractii Armor has a 4+ Invulnerable Save
Can get assault grenades via grenade harness
They can benefit from normal teleportation aids
They access get the deadly combi-bolter, TL rapidfire bolter at 24″.
Can mix and match Assault and Shooting Weapons.
A Termie captain upgraded (for free) to Cataphractii armor gets to re-roll his 4+ Invulnerable save rolls of a “1”.
They can Combat Squad
Cataphractii terminators benefit from Space Marine Chapter tactics

OK so thems the rules. I remember in 5th with ap2 lacking and rending less prevelant that terminators were everywhere. Now with ap2 everywhere most games I don't bother to break out the 2+ 5++ but making it a 4++ mixing and matching weapons and the rest seems like a good trade off to the slow and purposeful. I also like that they finally have slow and purposeful as that was always my gripe on them vs meganobz. Anybody planning to dust off the old terminator models on the shelf to try this?

The Sgt can swap his Power Sword for a Power Fist, finally. 4++ is a very nice improvement, and the other downsides of the squad seems like a minor annoyance. Not sure that they'll be particularly competitive (they're only 17% more durable against AP2), but terminators need all the help they can get.

If only GW would let CSM use it

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The Sgt can swap his Power Sword for a Power Fist, finally. 4++ is a very nice improvement, and the other downsides of the squad seems like a minor annoyance. Not sure that they'll be particularly competitive (they're only 17% more durable against AP2), but terminators need all the help they can get.

If only GW would let CSM use it

Well Space Marines totally deserve it.

pm713 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The Sgt can swap his Power Sword for a Power Fist, finally. 4++ is a very nice improvement, and the other downsides of the squad seems like a minor annoyance. Not sure that they'll be particularly competitive (they're only 17% more durable against AP2), but terminators need all the help they can get.

If only GW would let CSM use it

Well Space Marines totally deserve it.

on the CSM getting it. I am hoping this replaces standard terminator armor across the board as codexes get updates. merge assault and tactical terminators like in the space wolves book, and give the CSM the same options. CSM have it rough right now (been collecting them on the cheap thanks to the used market and ebay!)

and sure space marines seemingly have a toolkit for everything, but this makes terminators mostly more survivable so hopefully more useable. really I think the problem with the current meta is it is really huge on shooting and ignoring saves. short of nerfing shooting the next best thing is improving survivablility. One of the reasons Eldar are so strong is their speed to avoid being shot or amazing cover/jink saves.

personally I would love to see a change that a 6 always saves representing some fortunate event for the model such as tripping at the right moment or they were hit but it was their gear bag (I know this is to hit and to wound but again survivability of units needs something currently)

I like the idea of putting them with Brother Captain Stern of the Grey Knights who comes with sanctuary standard. This gives the unit a 2+/3++ when sanctuary is cast. The unit is only about 350pts with 9 powerfists. I would probably give them 5-6 chainfists so even Knights wouldn't want to tangle with them.

It is true that to much ap2 exists right now and that is why terminator armor is not very valuable anymore. Also the game is heavily weighted towards volume of fire armies which get around 2+ saves with lots of wounds.

Still I think a 10-man unit of terminator equivalents with powerfists can play a spoiler role against some top meta lists.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The Sgt can swap his Power Sword for a Power Fist, finally. 4++ is a very nice improvement, and the other downsides of the squad seems like a minor annoyance. Not sure that they'll be particularly competitive (they're only 17% more durable against AP2), but terminators need all the help they can get.

If only GW would let CSM use it

It would make sense since Cataphractii was around for the Heresy, but that's never stopped GW before.

Downside compared to tac termis:
Only weapon option if the HF. Which looses one of it’s perks (wall of death) on a S&P platform.
Combi-bolters, while better within 12” are worse outside of that. Kinda a wash.

Compared to assaults:
No THs. Loss of concussive is minor, but there.
No 3++.

Compared to tac terminators, they do OK. Firepower is still a little anemic, and you don’t get the good gun options to boost it. The loss of overwatch is not a huge deal, but not being able to run could be problematic. Particuarly since their combi-bolters need to be close to shine. But the 4++ everywhere will help their survivability significantly. And assuming you don’t replace it, the sarge’s sword is MC’d for free. Bonus.

Assault terminators are a fuzzier comparison. The loss of overwatch doesn’t phase them, but the no-run is bad. Duel claws are better with the 4++. Instead of THs you get the fists for free (keeping points down) or can upgrade to chainfists. Armorbane is going to be more useful then concussive vs. vehicles, but not so much vs. MCs. I’ll take it though. You do loose the 3++ from the SSs though

The grenade harness helps the non-unweildy guys out vs. things in cover.

One advantage they have is the ability to mix. Not sure how useful that is going to be. Shooting is already a bit light, is it worth swapping out bolters for 2xLCs? I could see tossing the HF into an assault oriented squad. For shooty squads, it’s nice for the option to have a LC/powerfist/chainfist to pair with the bolter.

If you were planning on deep striking tac terminators, and have some beacons to help with that, I think these guys will sub in very well for that role. For charging down an assault ramp, I think they will also do well. But for deployment on foot, or non-assisted DS, I think they might have some issues.

No.

Going form a 5++ to a 4++ is nice, but the problem terminators have in today's meta are not the overwhelming amount of AP2 weapons out there. They get gunned down by scat lasers or other weapons that let them have their normal 2+ save.

If they had FNP, or 2 wounds per model, they would be fixed.

Or useful guns.

I think we’ll see more use of the CTDA captain for S&P shenanigans then full squads.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think we’ll see more use of the CTDA captain for S&P shenanigans then full squads.

yea... I can see captains in catta terminator armor leading devastators a lot more or leading allied Guard heavy weapons teams

 Nevelon wrote:
I think we’ll see more use of the CTDA captain for S&P shenanigans then full squads.

I agree with this. It's a nice way to get your heavy grav move and shoot at full BS -- especially when coming in from a drop pod.

Him and 8 sternguard with c-gravs in a pod will also bring the pain.

For full companies you need a captain anyway, and he brings more then just a naked tax stuffed in a razor somewhere.

Trying to think of other SM stuff that’s not normally mobile that could use his help. Attaching to a sniper scout squad might be fun for laughs.

Once you talk about allies, things can get funky. Letting a whole blob of guard roll forward while shooting could be fun.

Funnily enough, they FAQ'd the Terminators in 30k to prevent exactly that kind of gameplay. Cataphractii has identical rules to S'n'P except for the mention of passing it onto their squads.
Odd that 40k chose to keep the older version, if the FW staff recognised it as severe enough to address in an errata.

As for tactical considerations:
They are Tactical Terminators with none of the special weapons and hence even less firepower than before.
They are Hammernators with a weaker save and no Concussive.
I could understand if they wanted them to be a hybrid that was equally capable in both assault and shooting, but they just seem inferior to both. Let's also address that a 4++ does precisely nothing to fix death by dicebuckets, which is typically the way they go anyway.

Some players are trying to argue that the Captain still gets a Bike option because "'He's only a Terminator for formation reasons' and therefore doesn't lose his driving license. I haven't seen the rules myself but it's possibly a horrific combo leading to Smashfether having a 2++ Rerollable.

One of the issues with terminators is that they are vulnerable to both buckets of dice and low volume AP 2 fire. A 4++ at least helps mitigate the small number of high quality shots.

Looking at the leaks I can see a RAW argument to put him on a bike (or give him a JP for that mater)

He has access to the special issue warger table. No question there.

Under the wargear description of CTDA it says it counts as TDA for purposes of:
Embarking
use of teleport homers
and formation restrictions.

It does not say anything about wargear restrictions. As they go out of their way to say under which circumstances it is the same, one could argue that it does not count for any other reasons.

I think RAI is pretty clear, and would look askance at anyone trying to pull of this level of shenanigans. But a legit argument can be formed to evade that little #3 footnote on the wargear chart.

I am lost why they didn't simply copy paste the Cata terminator squad from 30k and ditch the non-30k weapon options. Done.

Rather annoying the Captain has a better save than a 30k Praetor who is a higher ranking officer even though they are wearing identical armor.

no assault cannon, deathwing cant take one as an apothecary (yet), no thunderhammer + stormshield, no plasma cannon (dark angels)

Ork Meganobz basically have to give up their inv for S&P, and now SM get it for free and a better inv to boot. Not that ork players could take advantage of it anyway with their BS 2 TL shoota.

Great. Good balancing GW.

They are too slow for maelstrom and obj missions. Speed+dakka wins

 slip wrote:
Ork Meganobz basically have to give up their inv for S&P, and now SM get it for free and a better inv to boot. Not that ork players could take advantage of it anyway with their BS 2 TL shoota.

Great. Good balancing GW.

Terminators always had Relentless. Meganobz also have 2 wounds, so yeah.

ooooh actually might buy Angels of Death now.

Thing is, now LA are playable in 40k proper.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 slip wrote:
Ork Meganobz basically have to give up their inv for S&P, and now SM get it for free and a better inv to boot. Not that ork players could take advantage of it anyway with their BS 2 TL shoota.

Great. Good balancing GW.

Terminators always had Relentless. Meganobz also have 2 wounds, so yeah.

I think he's talking about conferring S&P to a squad to allow them to move an fire heavy weapons without snap firing. Makes a pretty huge difference for grav spamming devestators, especially if they're coming down via pod.

I've always thought the Cataphracti are closer to the way Terminators should have been done.

Take baseline Cataphracti stats and rules, give weapons mixing and matching like Chaos or Space Wolves and I think that should be the baseline Terminator for most of the armies that employ them.

Get rid of the Assault/Tactical division while you're at it as you could build both out of the same unit.

A lot of costing would have to be revisited of course (models would start with a power weapon instead of a power fist so they would be cheaper, upgrading a 4++ to a 3++ wouldn't be as expensive as upgrading a 5++, etc) but I think this would be an really decent starting point.

I think their rules are cool but I don't think they alleviate termies issues in 7th

If they had let you replace the combi bolter with a lightning claw, while keeping the fist, the cataphractii would have been great.

But, as is, they are just as bad as normal termies, but slightly better defended.

 slip wrote:
Ork Meganobz basically have to give up their inv for S&P, and now SM get it for free and a better inv to boot. Not that ork players could take advantage of it anyway with their BS 2 TL shoota.

Great. Good balancing GW.

Meganobs have 2 wounds each. There is not even a comparison. I would take a 2 wound terminator without an invuln any day of the week -- and twice on Sunday.

Having played with tactical Terminators a lot I can say that they're not bad to the point of being broken. They do useful things in assault with all of those powerfists, and their firepower is respectable. Considering that, I'd say the only change Terminators need to be balanced (or, if you prefer, a competitive option) is a points reduction. Drop them to, say, 28 points and they would be worth taking for what they can do.

If you want to keep them the same price and try to realize their lore more fully, as all but unkillable miniature battle tanks, then the Cataphracts are a step in the right direction but I feel they're more of a side-grade than an upgrade. Personally I would give them Feel No Pain rather than an increased invulnerable save as that would make them better against small arms fire, which they're supposed to just shrug off, and worse against anti-tank weapons, which are supposed to be the only reliable way to kill Terminators.

Feel No Pain combined with something to increase their firepower (Rending on their storm bolters? Able to shoot twice if they don't move?) would make them worth 35 points. As it is they're useful troops, just overpriced.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Funnily enough, they FAQ'd the Terminators in 30k to prevent exactly that kind of gameplay. Cataphractii has identical rules to S'n'P except for the mention of passing it onto their squads.
Odd that 40k chose to keep the older version, if the FW staff recognised it as severe enough to address in an errata.

Forgeworld writes better rules than Games Workshop and actually edits their rules. There's your explanation for that.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 slip wrote:
Ork Meganobz basically have to give up their inv for S&P, and now SM get it for free and a better inv to boot. Not that ork players could take advantage of it anyway with their BS 2 TL shoota.

Great. Good balancing GW.

Meganobs have 2 wounds each. There is not even a comparison. I would take a 2 wound terminator without an invuln any day of the week -- and twice on Sunday.

So you'd take Centurions - since they have superior gun options and T5.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 slip wrote:
Ork Meganobz basically have to give up their inv for S&P, and now SM get it for free and a better inv to boot. Not that ork players could take advantage of it anyway with their BS 2 TL shoota.

Great. Good balancing GW.

Meganobs have 2 wounds each. There is not even a comparison. I would take a 2 wound terminator without an invuln any day of the week -- and twice on Sunday.

Generally speaking, most Ork units are weaker versions of SM units, but also cost less and so Orks take more models to compensate. MANZ are 40pts each vs 35pts each for terminators. Ork players can't even buy an in-combat invlun save anymore. The best we can do is buy a KFF for 85pts and at the cost of a HQ slot, and that only protects against shooting. CC is about all MANZ are good for, which is absurd. Sure, Meganobs have 2 wounds, but without an invlun save, lack of fearless, only Ld7, slow and purposeful, oh and 40 points each... MANZ seem over-costed for what you get IMHO. Yes, the min squad size is 3 vs 5, so a min unit of MANZ costs less than a min unit of Termies, but honestly it seems like SM's have a superior unit for less points per model.

Then again, the Bully Boyz formation is hilarious.

I guess you would take a 2 wound Terminator, but the question is, would you take a 2 wound Terminator with Leadership 7?