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Me and my group are trying to use lower tier codexes just to try it out. No one wants orks, not for toer, just no one is interested in the playstyle. Same with nids. we know they are bad as well. We are considering a handicap, but there is some disagreement in which is worse.

Standalone scions with no allies.

Dark Eldar for sure. At least CSM get Baledrakes, which are still golden.

Dark Eldar are only better when you get to use them as an allied detachment for being a taxi service for your Eldar.

At least Dark Eldar can shoot. Harlies have to charge you to do anything and cost 20ppm or more to do anything.

There are statistics on this that are easy to find on the web. All players have a bias but this is how I would order them. From best to worst. These armies suffer from not being as powerful as their "good" counterpart.

DE -> Not bad at all if played right, even if played as a stand alone army. Not even close to their non spiky twins but they aren't dead in the water either. I have seen them murder their way trough less cut throat but still quite competitive tournaments.
CSM -> This army is no SM army but much better then most CSM players will let you believe. Also their FW support really adds a punch, this might even raise them above Dark eldar.
Harlies -> A really specific elite army with not that many ways to play it. This is makes it really vulnerable to rock paper scissor effects.

 curran12 wrote:
Standalone scions with no allies.

This

That said, they have the same problem Harlies do, in that they have no business being a full army in the form that they are, a couple FoC swap options in the parent book would have been fine. They're also really designed to a previous edition paradigm that simply doesn't function in 7E.

Between CSM's and DE, I'd say DE have the edge, but not by much.

CSM. DE, especially with Covens, aren't nearly at the handicap the other two aren't. If harlies ally with literally any other elves, they aren't either.

CSM are horrible, tied with nids for worst dex right now.

Its ridiculous how much attention CSM gets but still suck?

GW keeps giving them so much stuff CSM players cant even use. Oh look! we made these awesome warp talons! So wicked sick right? Oh the rules suck? Who cares! You are still going to buy these awesome dudes because you like collecting cool models right? Why should you buy them? because they look cool....

Same thing with possesed, mutilators, helbrutes and to a lesser extent, the dino bots.

Dark Eldar's only problem is that the current shooting heavy style of game is punishing to what's supposed to be a pure glass cannon. DE can hit like a freaking freight train, it's just that both Eldar & Tau can gun them down with little effort, and Loyalists laugh at them with their extreme MSU builds.

Chaos Marines on the other hand just don't work at a conceptual level anymore... A predominantly close combat focused army, that has 0 effective delivery methods, and lacks big time in the fire support area to boot.

Head-to-head, Dark Eldar will beat the ever living snot out of CSM's. Too much speed and weight of fire, which is a death sentence to overcosted MEQ's who get to pay through the nose for every potential special rule they can access.

I wouldn't say harlequins are BAD, They're very very restrictive, but properly set up they can wreck a lot of armies. They also make great allies.
And as others have said, DE>CSM

 oldzoggy wrote:

CSM -> This army is no SM army but much better then most CSM players will let you believe. Also their FW support really adds a punch, this might even raise them above Dark eldar.

BAD! No biscuit! We do not discuss FW support for a codex because unless you feel a £40+ tax for an additional book beyond your codex just to be viable is fair or reasonable it's a non-factor. If you want to really take that approach consider the following...

Dark Eldar are Battle Brothers with Craftworld Eldar.

Harlequins strike me as one of the smaller sub-armies that are really intended to be used as an allied force with another bigger army.

Dark Eldar definately fare better than CSM - for mobility, for the resilience that comes with the Covens and for the fact they can ally with Craftworlds as Battle Brothers - while the argument exists that CSM can do so with Daemons...the mark system is very restrictive for characters and CSM doesn't really have a 'choice' selection of units for allying with.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BAD! No biscuit! We do not discuss FW support for a codex because unless you feel a £40+ tax for an additional book beyond your codex just to be viable is fair or reasonable it's a non-factor. If you want to really take that approach consider the following...

But fielding a Fire Raptor is FUN. Driving up in an unstoppable Spartan and dropping off 20 Berzerkers to charge after disembarking is FUN. Shooting things up from across the board with Sicarans and Contemptors is FUN. Heavy weapon platforms are FUN. Legacies of Ruin are FUN. Renegade Guard allies are FUN. Your armies actually stop disfunctioning once you start adding FW into the mix.

Honestly, given what people pay for loyalist armies, CSM players probably get the better deal by adding IA:13, a couple tanks and flyers to a lackluster CSM force. I don't know why so many people are so dead set against it.

pm713 wrote:
At least Dark Eldar can shoot. Harlies have to charge you to do anything and cost 20ppm or more to do anything.

Harlies by far. Keep them at arm's length and they cannot shine.

 wuestenfux wrote:

pm713 wrote:
At least Dark Eldar can shoot. Harlies have to charge you to do anything and cost 20ppm or more to do anything.

Harlies by far. Keep them at arm's length and they cannot shine.

Well, with fleet+run and charge they can almost always get into combat

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BAD! No biscuit! We do not discuss FW support for a codex because unless you feel a £40+ tax for an additional book beyond your codex just to be viable is fair or reasonable it's a non-factor. If you want to really take that approach consider the following...

But fielding a Fire Raptor is FUN. Driving up in an unstoppable Spartan and dropping off 20 Berzerkers to charge after disembarking is FUN. Shooting things up from across the board with Sicarans and Contemptors is FUN. Heavy weapon platforms are FUN. Legacies of Ruin are FUN. Renegade Guard allies are FUN. Your armies actually stop disfunctioning once you start adding FW into the mix.

Honestly, given what people pay for loyalist armies, CSM players probably get the better deal by adding IA:13, a couple tanks and flyers to a lackluster CSM force. I don't know why so many people are so dead set against it.

Two things one the loyalist get most of the stuff for less with better rules two you still run into the FW is over powered people.

As a mono codex, CSM if you do not count sisters. It's not even a competition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At least CSM get Baledrakes, which are still golden.

Golden for what, exactly? It has no targets. Everything is one way or the other going to get al least 3+ save against it or is utterly meaningless on the battle field. You can kill badly positioned scouts with it but can not hurt any of the deathstars or actual objective grabbers. How is this golden?

Oldmike wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BAD! No biscuit! We do not discuss FW support for a codex because unless you feel a £40+ tax for an additional book beyond your codex just to be viable is fair or reasonable it's a non-factor. If you want to really take that approach consider the following...

But fielding a Fire Raptor is FUN. Driving up in an unstoppable Spartan and dropping off 20 Berzerkers to charge after disembarking is FUN. Shooting things up from across the board with Sicarans and Contemptors is FUN. Heavy weapon platforms are FUN. Legacies of Ruin are FUN. Renegade Guard allies are FUN. Your armies actually stop disfunctioning once you start adding FW into the mix.

Honestly, given what people pay for loyalist armies, CSM players probably get the better deal by adding IA:13, a couple tanks and flyers to a lackluster CSM force. I don't know why so many people are so dead set against it.

Two things one the loyalist get most of the stuff for less with better rules two you still run into the FW is over powered people.

3rd thing: a $200 additional "tax" just to turn around a turd is not a real world option.

I wonder how many people here have ever played against even a semi-serious Harlequin or Dark Eldar army.

That's part of the problem with low tier codexes and why they feel so bad. Nobody ever plays against a competitive player using them, because they've all jumped ship for the best armies.

 Jimsolo wrote:
CSM. DE, especially with Covens, aren't nearly at the handicap the other two aren't. If harlies ally with literally any other elves, they aren't either.

CSM are horrible, tied with nids for worst dex right now.

I think Nids are better than BA, but CSM are worse by a bit. So I think CSM is below Nids considerably.

If you want handicap, spam Black Legion 10-man Chosen squads with double Lightning claws on each, mark of Tzeentch and Icon of Flame. 535 points for 10 3+/6++ wounds on foot.

HQ should be unarmored Tzeentch prince on foot with Black Legion relics Crucible of lies to reduce his Toughness to 4 so he costs 185 points and can be killed by one S8 hit.

At 1850 pts you can have one such DP, three Chosen claw squads of doom and for spare 60 pts one Rhino with Daemonic possession (to eat passengers) and extra armor.

Standalone Harlys imo by far.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BAD! No biscuit! We do not discuss FW support for a codex because unless you feel a £40+ tax for an additional book beyond your codex just to be viable is fair or reasonable it's a non-factor. If you want to really take that approach consider the following...

But fielding a Fire Raptor is FUN. Driving up in an unstoppable Spartan and dropping off 20 Berzerkers to charge after disembarking is FUN. Shooting things up from across the board with Sicarans and Contemptors is FUN. Heavy weapon platforms are FUN. Legacies of Ruin are FUN. Renegade Guard allies are FUN. Your armies actually stop disfunctioning once you start adding FW into the mix.

Honestly, given what people pay for loyalist armies, CSM players probably get the better deal by adding IA:13, a couple tanks and flyers to a lackluster CSM force. I don't know why so many people are so dead set against it.

The thing is....the thing is...

The FW argument holds up for EVERY army.

CSM don't become a top tier army if you add IA 13 - because surprise surprise, Eldar, Necrons and SM do the exact same thing themselves.

The different here is Craftworlds, Necrons and SM can field a viable and in some cases competitive army with their base codex alone.

To even become viable CSM need to dip into an Imperial Armour book, dataslates and allies. To even become viable CSM has to shell out an additional £47 for a book. Every other army in this game can field a viable force for significantly less. The top tier armies don't even have to go beyond their core codex, secondary tier have to step up for a supplement (which still is less than an IA book by the way).

CSM are literally sitting on a throne of gak.

And it's not even like IA 13 is 'special'. Okay? It's not like IA 13 is this unique flower that gives us things only we can truly get. Your list of things that are FUN are a fething mockery.

Fire Raptors - Imperials can take those.
Sicarans - Same.
Contemptors - Same.
Heavy Weapon Platforms - Same.
Legacies - Imperials get an equivalent.
Allies? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Like Imperials don't have the most open Ally chart in the game at the moment.

Yes, CSM stop being dysfunctional once you add FW into the mix.

However, considering that SM get EVEN BETTER when they do the same...and they were already in a pretty damn good spot to begin with.

If you can't grasp that concept then please, stop trying to tell us that CSM are not broken because a £47 book from FW exists.

the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder how many people here have ever played against even a semi-serious Harlequin or Dark Eldar army.

That's part of the problem with low tier codexes and why they feel so bad. Nobody ever plays against a competitive player using them, because they've all jumped ship for the best armies.

I think part of the problem is that both of these armies have hardcounters that are almost impossible to deal with. Harlies and DE can be really great at dealing with certain things, and really bad at dealing with others and no amount of generalship can consistently overcome those factors.

If you stick to Nurgle CSM aren't that bad. PMs, Obliterators, Bikes, Termicide, Brutes, Helbrute-Formations, HQ choices are all viable options in a casual environment at least.

DE? CSM? Harly? I would say Harly, simply because they are not a 'real' codex in the true sense of the word.

However between DE and CSM; then the worse codex is CSM without any doubt. The army lacks any really good synergies, suffers from rules writing bereft of any inspiration, and units are generally overcosted. I have both DE and CSM armies, and my experience is that CSM are certainly behind the curve. At least when I play Dark Eldar I can actually feel like I am playing fast moving, sinister raiders. When I play CSM I just feel confused...

What's really hilarious about the whole Chaos mess, is that GW made Daemons into a pretty solid codex overall...

The army has solid crunch & can play competitively if that's your thing. It managed to do the whole 'chaos = random' theme really well, without turning into a complete gakstorm. You can play some pretty fun & fluffy lists, and the synergies are absolutely there to be had.

Even the new CotW stuff overall, is pretty great!
The new Warlord Traits & Relics especially are flat out amazing. The expanded psychic lores overall are decently balanced, and no one in their right mind can ***** and moan about them. The Daemonic Incursion detachment's bonuses, are imho, tied with Necrons for being the second best in the game, right behind Loyalists and their free transports.
The formations themselves are somewhat hit and miss entirely, but there's only two really, really god-awful, completely unplayable ones out of the dozen or so that are there. (looking at you Burning Skyhost & 1000+pts Daemon Prince formations!!)

And yet, when it comes to the Chaos Marines themselves, GW just keeps pushing blanderised crap out, likely because if we do ever get anything remotely half decent again, the Imperials throw another giant temper tantrum.

Probably Tyranids. They dont even have anything usefull from FW except Malanthrophe....
CSM are in pretty horrible shape too.
I don`t count the pseudo-codices like Militarum Tempestus or Harlequins to it.

It depends a lot on game size. Armies like Scions and Harlequins suffer terribly in larger games, as their very low amount of available units means you will be limited to easily counterable spam of units that are not very good to begin with.

In lower points games, these codices tend to do better, though never truly good.

Overall, discounting codices that are too small to be truly worthy of the name, CSM are the weakest. Corpsethief Claw and the like makes DE a daunting foe for CSM, as they have no real equivalent.

Don't you compare my beautiful dark eldar, to CSM trash.

Kidding, kind of.

I think CSM has items that need point adjustments. Just as a comparison, an Eldar warp spider is 19pts and I'm positive certain CSM units, point per model are just dumbly overcosted. While, IMO, warp spiders are horribly undercosted.

I also feel dark eldar need little formations to help counteract things like "ignores cover" which everyone has now apperantly, and maybe their drug table should be like the mechanicus format, picking a different drug a turn.

My vote is CSM as the worst, although IMO their HQs hit like a damn truck.

Wait... There are Codices that make their armies worse than the Tyranids?