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I know that a lot of people, when they buy Betrayal at Calth, go for Pride of the Legion.
When people say this, a lot of other people say that doing that is a trap, but I think it's only temporary.
Say if I plan on buying a B@C box at one point, and then another later on, I think the PotL may be pretty useful.

I get the first box and lets say I make 2 Vet squads, a Heavy Support Squad, and a Support Squad.
This is enough to play low point games, and get to know the mechanics, field play, how you like your legion, etc.

Then when you get the second box, you can make 2x 15 man Tac squads, and (depending on how you kit our your Vet squads) anywhere from 10-16 additional standard marines to use.

I feel like Pride of the Legion is more of a stepping stone than a trap.

Why do you guys feel it is a trap?

Honestly i dont know why people think its a trap, its not optimal and obviously cuts you out of your legion ROW most of the time but its fun to use.

a few core reasons:

1) As a support option, vet. tactical squads can be really good. Sniping heavy bolters to go apothecary hunting and many other applications give them a use, HOWEVER...
2) They don't have enough durability or fire power to be the core of your army. 10-man squads in power armor drop like flies in 30k, simple as that. While they can, under the right conditions, do a decent amount of damage, you have to kit them out for very situational roles, all the while a single stray AP: 3 blast would be mush more devastating to a vet. tactical squad as opposed to a regular tactical squad. (both in the sense that you're loosing more points, AND you loose firepower at a faster rate for vet. tactical squads)
3) As for pride of the legion, there's a few glaring flaws: 1) if all of your vet. tacticals or terminators die, you give up a VP. doesn't sound to bad until you remind yourself of how flimsy vet tactical squads are. 2) No allies. while not a flaw at first, if you stick with how you learned to play (as many do) you cripple yourself in the long run

the list goes on, but those are 3 of the big problems. While PotL isn't bad (under the right circumstances), using what comes in the calth kit as PotL is limiting, not really effective (or all to fluffy all things considered, as vet. tacticals seemed to be used more as surgical tools rather then a force of their own), and if you learn to play using what's in the box, it's likely you'll try to stick with small units, or get to frustrated against larger armies since nothing in the box packs enough punch to make an effective low model count force.

to continue my example compare to possible forces:

1:
Praetor (PotL)
Centurion (Champion)

3 10-man tactical squads (1 w/ 2 heavy bolters + sniper, 1 w/ 2 extra power weapons + 2 flamers, 1 w/ 2 plasma guns)

5 terminators w/ p. fists & 1 heavy flamer
contemptor w/ kheres + fist

2:
Praetor
Centurion ( Master of Signal or Primus medicae)

2 15-man tactical squads

5 terminators (same as above)
contemptor (same as above)


While out of the tin, the first list is more effective, once you begin to expand, it's much more limiting. compare both to what you could do if you chose to get another Calth box (or stuff from FW):

with the first list, you kinda have to stay in the PotL mind set until you get enough infantry to field some tactical squads and NOT have a ton of spare models. maybe 1 tactical squad, 1 ML squad, and 1 plasma squad. you can bump up your force, but it will be a while until you can switch out of PotL effectively,
with the second list, you have enough to, if you want, field 3 full tactical squads, but assuming a 'tactical' approach, you finish your 2 squads, bring a ML squad, plasma squad, and you STILL have 10 men spare to bring a vet. tactical squad if you want.

in summary: PotL is limiting, has quite a few large flaws, doesn't expand all to well without some serious planning, and (possibly) encourages a play style that I've found to not be all-to effective in 30k. Can PotL be fun? Yes, no doubt (though I'd play it with terminator spam as opposed to vet. tacitcals). Is it a good teaching tool? No. It's harder to play, and it's main draw is "you can use your regular marines to play!" as opposed to "use this to learn how 30k is different"

Ok, that all makes a lot of sense. Thank you for answering my question, I'll be picking up a box soonish and wanted to see why PotL isn't the way to go.

I know alot of people on here say OMG 10 man squads is weak sauce....IDK from the games of 30k Ive played so far they did just fine.-----just put them in Rhinos......

In fact I found them quite resilient in Rhinos and most the games end up being trying to get the other side out of rhinos so you can blast them with the AP 3 weapons and hope they arent in cover.

As it seems most of the people ive played against also like squads in Rhinos......For its point a rhino is still the best points buy in the game for marine ablative armor 30k/40k both. In 30k its still only the same cost as 2-3 marines and will in general easily absorb more fire than the 2-3 marines could.

chaos45 wrote:
I know alot of people on here say OMG 10 man squads is weak sauce....IDK from the games of 30k Ive played so far they did just fine.-----just put them in Rhinos......

In fact I found them quite resilient in Rhinos and most the games end up being trying to get the other side out of rhinos so you can blast them with the AP 3 weapons and hope they arent in cover.

As it seems most of the people ive played against also like squads in Rhinos......For its point a rhino is still the best points buy in the game for marine ablative armor 30k/40k both. In 30k its still only the same cost as 2-3 marines and will in general easily absorb more fire than the 2-3 marines could.

true to a point, but they got to get out at some point also, that tacks on another ~90 dollars to the BaC cost. just pray your rhinos never see volkite, quad mortars, or anything S: 5/6+ :(

You are right that it's a good way to build a legal army from a single calth box.

The "Trap" is more in the way of thinking. Alot of people see the Vet squads, and they feel more or less like "better" loyalist tactical squads from 40k. It's realy tempting for new players coming into 30k to want to gravitate to these squads since they are familiar and more like what their use to. The "trap" is getting stuck into the 40k mindset when building a army.


Trying to rebuild a 40k army in the 30k list leaves you with something that's just very underwhelming ageist legion lists build with their legions in mind at the same points limits.

 Brennonjw wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
I know alot of people on here say OMG 10 man squads is weak sauce....IDK from the games of 30k Ive played so far they did just fine.-----just put them in Rhinos......

In fact I found them quite resilient in Rhinos and most the games end up being trying to get the other side out of rhinos so you can blast them with the AP 3 weapons and hope they arent in cover.

As it seems most of the people ive played against also like squads in Rhinos......For its point a rhino is still the best points buy in the game for marine ablative armor 30k/40k both. In 30k its still only the same cost as 2-3 marines and will in general easily absorb more fire than the 2-3 marines could.

true to a point, but they got to get out at some point also, that tacks on another ~90 dollars to the BaC cost. just pray your rhinos never see volkite, quad mortars, or anything S: 5/6+ :(

Not sure why you'd drop 90 dollars on what is essentially this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for all your talking of '40k mindset trap', isn't basically this kind of optimization a 40k mindset?

Pride of the Legion was one of the biggest let downs for me in 30k

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
I know alot of people on here say OMG 10 man squads is weak sauce....IDK from the games of 30k Ive played so far they did just fine.-----just put them in Rhinos......

In fact I found them quite resilient in Rhinos and most the games end up being trying to get the other side out of rhinos so you can blast them with the AP 3 weapons and hope they arent in cover.

As it seems most of the people ive played against also like squads in Rhinos......For its point a rhino is still the best points buy in the game for marine ablative armor 30k/40k both. In 30k its still only the same cost as 2-3 marines and will in general easily absorb more fire than the 2-3 marines could.

true to a point, but they got to get out at some point also, that tacks on another ~90 dollars to the BaC cost. just pray your rhinos never see volkite, quad mortars, or anything S: 5/6+ :(

Not sure why you'd drop 90 dollars on what is essentially this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for all your talking of '40k mindset trap', isn't basically this kind of optimization a 40k mindset?

Because it looks better. That rhino is broken, but to each his own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Amroth wrote:
Honestly i dont know why people think its a trap, its not optimal and obviously cuts you out of your legion ROW most of the time but its fun to use.

It is fun. I have faced it a few times and did not find it to be extremely tough, and they were fun games. However, it is better than some legion's Rite of War. For some reason, FW thinks that Breacher And Planax Warder Squads are the bomb and included them in both of the Imperial Fists RoW. Give me Templar Brethren stuff!

Anyhow, I play my Imperial Fist with no RoW.

Personally i think its great, i also play fists and 10 man sniper vets with 2 heavy bolters are about as fluffy as i can make the list and use a ROW without needing to use bloody breachers or warders who are both incredibly expensive for 10 never mind jacking the squad size to 20 which is what i would want to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although in fairness the new ROW isnt so bad.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Also, for all your talking of '40k mindset trap', isn't basically this kind of optimization a 40k mindset?

to an extent, but this is more of a "this isn't a RoW to learn the differences of 30k and 40k with" Once you actually have the models to run it well, PotL can be pretty fun, HOWEVER it has some glaring flaws that make it a really poor choice for newer players to start out with.

I like 10 man tac squads in rhinos to be honest. Give the squad bolter/CCW and the rhino a Heavy Flamer works pretty well for me. I run hammer of olympia for the free Extra Armour on everything helps.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:

Not sure why you'd drop 90 dollars on what is essentially this.

Wait what? Why not just use the Normal plastic rhinos? The legion doors are for the plastic rhino, and the plastic rhinos are shown in all the books and displays. You don't need MKI rhinos to make a 30k list, MKII rhinos were around during the HH.

Personally I just buy one set of doors for the rhino and land raider once, and do green stuff press moulds of the symbols to legion up all my tanks.


Instant Mould is great.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for all your talking of '40k mindset trap', isn't basically this kind of optimization a 40k mindset?

The meta of 30k is very different from the meta of 40k. All of the 30k lists are pointed out in a way that hurts MSU armies.

Pride of the legion has it's uses but I agree that I could see 40k players trying to use it to remake their 40k list as a way of staying in their comfort zone. Pain is how we learn, this will be no different.

Which would you rather see from a 40K -> 30K player? Pride of the Legion, or non-era appropriate armor?

Because I’ve got enough mk. 7 armor to field a tide of blue, but mk VI and less is in shorter supply.

 Nevelon wrote:
Which would you rather see from a 40K -> 30K player? Pride of the Legion, or non-era appropriate armor?

Neither is important to me, really. If Pride of the Legion is what gets you into the game, great! If using your MkVII models is what gets you into the game, great! In some ways, I think the armor pattern isn't very important unless you're trying to play some particular model that is supposed to recognized solely by its armor, somehow. When you think about how every legion seems to have its own variant(s) of the armor marks, as to sometimes almost be unrecognizable as one of the normal marks, does it really matter?

As an aside, the Iron Warriors (or Imperial Fists, haven't finally decided yet) army I plan to build once my EC are "finished" will probably be my Dreamforge Games Valkyr models.

 Nevelon wrote:
Which would you rather see from a 40K -> 30K player? Pride of the Legion, or non-era appropriate armor?

Because I’ve got enough mk. 7 armor to field a tide of blue, but mk VI and less is in shorter supply.

MK VII is technically era appropriate (if you play by siege of Terra ).

beyond that, it all depends on how the PotL list was put together and played (put together as in "a bunch of MSU" (eh) or "This was all I had" (acceptable))

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Which would you rather see from a 40K -> 30K player? Pride of the Legion, or non-era appropriate armor?

Because I’ve got enough mk. 7 armor to field a tide of blue, but mk VI and less is in shorter supply.

MK VII is technically era appropriate (if you play by siege of Terra ).

Or the scouring prior to the breaking up of the legions.

The 1st edition MkVII schemes in WD129 were presented as modern-day, but the concept sketches were published in WD346 and showed that the schemes had apparently been intended to be Heresy era (Hence the Ultramarines to this day having no separate colour for their 10th company: Because they were first cooked up for the Heresy era 9-company system in WD126).

I have some questions that's a little off topic.

-Have the Red Books been updated yet?
-I noticed there are three, in order to play, say Thousand Sons (I know there book isn't out for awhile), which of these three do I need to buy?

There are 3 red books

Crusade
Legion
Mechanicum

You need Crusade and Legion for Marine armies, Legion has been updated recently, Crusade is anticipated sometime soon.

Thousand Sons would require the large book they make their debut in to play right away, as there aren't any rules for them yet, plus the Crusade book for the non-Legion Specific stuff, but you could skip the Legion red book as it wouldn't have anything relevant. Ditto Space Wolves.

 Azreal13 wrote:
There are 3 red books

Crusade
Legion
Mechanicum

You need Crusade and Legion for Marine armies, Legion has been updated recently, Crusade is anticipated sometime soon.

Thousand Sons would require the large book they make their debut in to play right away, as there aren't any rules for them yet, plus the Crusade book for the non-Legion Specific stuff, but you could skip the Legion red book as it wouldn't have anything relevant. Ditto Space Wolves.

Thanks friend, I'll probably get them when HH7 comes out

I play Raven Guard, and PotL is the only RoW I use (apart from the occasional Decaoitation Strike).

It's a good all around choice.

If you've only got one B@C set and you want to play 30k now, I think you can still use Vet Tactical Squads. Just build them so you can transition them to Tactical Support or Heavy Support Squads later. Say 3 Vet Tacticals with Missile Launcher and Plasma Gun. Then you only need 2 more Missiles and 2 more Plasmas (ie from your 2nd B@C box) to make a 5 man Plasma and 5 man Missile squad, and you've got 24 Bolter Marines left over to make your Tactical Squads.

Having played a few Pride of the Legion lists, it's not really a trap per se.

The trap is when people overestimate the damage and survivability capabilities of both Veteran Tacticals and Terminators deployed regularily.

When you remember that they are "just" line units, and don't spend more than a fixed amount of your points on the line (I usually go for 50%) and invest the rest both in long range support as well as fast units that are very threatening at close range, you get a nice mix.

Without access to Deep Strike or put in a Dreadclaw, the Terminators are just Tactical Marines that are a tad tougher. 10 footslogging Power Fists or 5 Power Fists in a Land Raider won't really have the speed or the deployment options to put pressure where it hurts and act as a bullet magnet.

What they bring though is an interesting back up damage that will make sure that even if your heavy hitters (think heavy support level of heavy hitters, or outrider level of dakka) get destroyed, then you can still pump out some good shots rather than rely on the sheer spam that regular troops bring.