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What kind of equipment can an apothecary be given? For ex ampie, in a command squad can i give a grav gun, or he cannot have other stuff in addition to the narthecium?

Check in your local group. Hopefuly GW will answer in new FAQ.

Lathain wrote:
What kind of equipment can an apothecary be given? For ex ampie, in a command squad can i give a grav gun, or he cannot have other stuff in addition to the narthecium?

Which Apothecary? There are 3 that I know of.

As far as I know, in most cases an Apothecary cannot be given any other equipment. However there are some who believe you can give it to the Veteran before upgrading the Apothecary. There is nothing to support this, but there is nothing specifically against it, either.

The one in the command squad (in the space marine codex) can NOT be upgraded with anything. It says only the veterans can be upgraded, the apothercary are no longer classed as a veteran.

 ThunderfireMac wrote:
The one in the command squad (in the space marine codex) can NOT be upgraded with anything. It says only the veterans can be upgraded, the apothercary are no longer classed as a veteran.

Equip a veteran however you want, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.

While not an official GW ruling, if you play in ITC events, this is from their FAQ:

In a Space Marine Command Squad, so long as a Veteran does not replace a weapon required for the upgrade, it may purchase any of the Veteran options and then be upgraded to an Apothecary or Company Champion.


But the RAW is not specific, and solid arguments and precedent can be found on both sides.

YMMV, check with your FLGS and see what they say there.

 ThunderfireMac wrote:
The one in the command squad (in the space marine codex) can NOT be upgraded with anything. It says only the veterans can be upgraded, the apothercary are no longer classed as a veteran.

I'm 100% certain this is RAI, but unfortunately it's not written as such.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 ThunderfireMac wrote:
The one in the command squad (in the space marine codex) can NOT be upgraded with anything. It says only the veterans can be upgraded, the apothercary are no longer classed as a veteran.

I'm 100% certain this is RAI, but unfortunately it's not written as such.

It is RAW once the Apothecary is upgraded.

What is in question is if the Veteran can be upgraded with gear before becoming an Apothecary and if the Apothecary can keep said gear.

This is no different than the discussion on the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, except that the Apothecary is not allowed to change out Wargear after he's upgraded (aside from unit-wide upgrades like Jump Packs or Bikes).

Personally, I don't want the grief, so I would suggest against "upgrading Veteran Gear before upgrading to Apothecary".

Please provide a page number and paragraph telling us how we are to validate our army list.

 Ghaz wrote:
Please provide a page number and paragraph telling us how we are to validate our army list.

There isn't one, and you well know it. We've collectively been down this road a million times.

The rules tell us how to build an army. The rules have zero to say on validating that a list is legal after the fact. The implication is that if each choice you make is legal, the end result will be legal.

Unanswerable questions without an Errata/FAQ...

1. Do options have to be taken in top to bottom order as presented on a datasheet?
2. When a model is upgraded from Profile X to Profile Y, is the model's wargear "reset" to the starting wargear for the new profile?

This topic is impossible to resolve without answers to those two questions. Answers to those two questions aren't covered in the rules and would require commentary from GW via an Errata or FAQ.

Assuming the answer to Question 1 is NO and the answer to Question 2 is also NO, then you can have Apothecaries who kept their "Veteran Only" upgrades. If the answer to either question is YES, you can't.

Might as well lock this thread now. There will be no consensus.

And yet people keep claiming something is RAW when its not covered by the rules. It is just as likely that you validate your army list at the end, meaning an Apothecary with an upgrade for a Veteran is not RAW as an Apothecary is not a Veteran.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet people keep claiming something is RAW when its not covered by the rules. It is just as likely that you validate your army list at the end, meaning an Apothecary with an upgrade for a Veteran is not RAW as an Apothecary is not a Veteran.

Well, the rules tell us how to choose options. The rules are totally silent on validating your army list at the end. In that sense, I think it's a lot more likely that RaW is to simply choose valid options and that end state validation is a made up thing. But that's just me interpreting the rules. End state validation has zero rules support. Simply picking valid options as you go does (options section of the datasheet description page in just about every recent codex). There is no mention anywhere in the rules that lead me to believe the authors intend us to do a "post build" validation on army lists.

For those who haven't been involved in this discussion a million times...

We know that "building" a unit is a process. The shining example of this is the Space Marine Bikers unit that requires you to switch a Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword and THEN switch the Chainsword for a Special Weapon. Without first resolving the first option, the second option is illegal since the model doesn't start with a Chainsword. In much the same way, some people argue that while an Apothecary may not pick certain pieces of wargear, if a Veteran first picks that piece of wargear and THEN upgrades to an Apothecary, the end result is an Apothecary with said wargear... unless options have to be taken in top to bottom order in which case we upgrade a model to an Apothecary BEFORE getting the option for the fancy wargear OR a model's wargear is reset when the model is upgraded to a different profile, in which case it would lose any upgrades it had purchased before upgrading. We need FAQs or Erratas to answer these last two questions.

And then what is the purpose of listing certain upgrades for Veterans, certain upgrades for Apothecaries and certain upgrades for any model? If you can give it to any model just by choosing the order then what's the point of making it an upgrade to a Veteran instead of an upgrade for any model? How do you know your opponent gave the model the Veteran upgrade before or after you've upgraded him to an Apothecary?

Sorry, but your 'one and done' way just leaves too many unanswered questions and allows things that make no logical sense.

 Ghaz wrote:
Please provide a page number and paragraph telling us how we are to validate our army list.

There are not any rules that tell us to do this.

So we do not have to. we just take the upgrades as presented.

 Ghaz wrote:
And then what is the purpose of listing certain upgrades for Veterans, certain upgrades for Apothecaries and certain upgrades for any model?

Because veterans can not take gear allowed only for Apothecaries .

If you can give it to any model just by choosing the order then what's the point of making it an upgrade to a Veteran instead of an upgrade for any model?

Because that is how they wrote it.

How do you know your opponent gave the model the Veteran upgrade before or after you've upgraded him to an Apothecary?

you don't, but it does not really matter.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And then what is the purpose of listing certain upgrades for Veterans, certain upgrades for Apothecaries and certain upgrades for any model?

Because veterans can not take gear allowed only for Apothecaries.

Again, what is the point of having upgrades for Veterans if they can be taken by any model?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
If you can give it to any model just by choosing the order then what's the point of making it an upgrade to a Veteran instead of an upgrade for any model?

Because that is how they wrote it.

Except a Veteran is not an Apothecary and an Apothecary is not a Veteran. Hence if its listed for one or the other, its not for 'any model'.

 Ghaz wrote:
And then what is the purpose of listing certain upgrades for Veterans, certain upgrades for Apothecaries and certain upgrades for any model? If you can give it to any model just by choosing the order then what's the point of making it an upgrade to a Veteran instead of an upgrade for any model? How do you know your opponent gave the model the Veteran upgrade before or after you've upgraded him to an Apothecary?

Sorry, but your 'one and done' way just leaves too many unanswered questions and allows things that make no logical sense.

I agree, but a post build validation also has some logical flaws as it's impossible to validate a list without knowing in which order options were selected. Which is why I've said repeatedly that we need an Errata or FAQ.

1. Do options have to be taken in the order they are presented?
2. When a model is upgraded to have a different profile, is his wargear 'reset' to that new profile's starting wargear?

Those are the two unanswered questions. Without knowing the answer to either, a post build validation makes just as many rules assumptions as validating each option selection as you proceed. Probably more actually, sense the rules tell us we can select options. The rules don't tell us in what order or what happens with wargear when a profile changes, but they do tell us we can select options. There is no mention made anywhere of validating those options after the fact. A post build validation is 100% reader created and not represented in the actual rules. Hence, I tend to go with the following...

1. We can select options.
2. We don't know whether or not we have to choose options in a specific order, but the options are presented via an unordered list, so I assume we can make unordered selections.
3. We don't know whether or not a model loses wargear when being upgraded to a different profile, but this is a permissive ruleset and we're never told to remove wargear, so I assume we shouldn't.

I'm making assumptions, but those assumptions are based on what I consider to be a pretty reasonable interpretation of the rules. I don't think it is reasonable to assume we have to make ordered selections from an unordered list, nor do I think it's reasonable that we should take wargear away from a model without being told to in the context of a permissive rule set.

But, as always, in the absence of unambiguous rules or an FAQ/Errata, my assumptions and interpretations might be wrong as might yours.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And then what is the purpose of listing certain upgrades for Veterans, certain upgrades for Apothecaries and certain upgrades for any model?

Because veterans can not take gear allowed only for Apothecaries.

Again, what is the point of having upgrades for Veterans if they can be taken by any model?

This question only the writers can answer.

I do not know why they wrote it this way, but that is not surprising, they write many rules that do not make much sense.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
If you can give it to any model just by choosing the order then what's the point of making it an upgrade to a Veteran instead of an upgrade for any model?

Because that is how they wrote it.

Except a Veteran is not an Apothecary and an Apothecary is not a Veteran. Hence if its listed for one or the other, its not for 'any model'.

Right, it is just for Veteran or Apothecary. But if the model is a Veteran then the gear is legal. you can also upgrade this Veteran to an Apothecary and nothing says that he loses all of his gear. so therefore he keeps his gear.