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So due to the fact that the Japanese are degraded to second class citizens within Yu Jing society, why don't they reach out to PanO with a request to join? Would they not receive better treatment as a member of the PanO collective.

Who's to say they haven't?

Think of it in this context: Look at the politics surrounding any of the Eastern Bloc countries, now, attempting to join NATO. There's a lot of hemming and hawwing from the NATO countries and Russia, with Russia calling it an encroachment on their borders and NATO saying it should be their choice.

PanO and YJ are already in a perpetual state of cold war, one of YJ's client states(for lack of a better term) trying to leave and then join their rival?
That's the kind of thing that makes a cold war go hot.

They are neo-traditionalists, as such they have philosophy (mostly nationalistic pride I suspect) and interests that are in conflict with PanOceania. I don't see it working on the long run, without substantial compromise.

 Storm Shadow wrote:
So due to the fact that the Japanese are degraded to second class citizens within Yu Jing society, why don't they reach out to PanO with a request to join? Would they not receive better treatment as a member of the PanO collective.

Hmmm... no?

I mean, considering how PanO treats Ateks, the only Japanese who would be well treated would be the big companies (and they would probably be forced into a series of fusions and corporate mutilations by the bigger PanO lobbies, which wouldn't be too desirable), and the big companies are already well treated by the Yu Jing goverment (as long as they don't support the Takenotai).

I don't believe you can casually claim they'd be treated as Ateks. Nipponese are generally well off, some would probably ended at the bottom, majority in the middle and some at the top.

PanOceania really dislikes concentration of power, running a family business (corporation) wouldn't be considered a radical doctrine, however to have any say in PanOceania you'd need to team with others and be part of something larger, where I suspect various problems would arose.

Yu Jing is mistreating Japanese, however, they do treat those with "honorary citizenship" equally as any other (who might also feel occasional baton on their heads for no good reason). Things might be hard on few occasions, but it would seem that it has not escalated to such desperate level that entire Nipponese province would be forced to riot and demanded intervention from 0-12. I think this the place where the petition for separation would be send, afterwards it'd be up to the council members of 0-12 to decide.

Yeah, the O-12 really don't have that kind of power over the internal working of the governments of the Human Sphere. It might be some thing their Black Ops teams would try to force one way or the other. But, they can't force Nomads to use ALEPH and didn't know about the convert was between the too, or the fact ALEPH had a standing army until, this is a enitiy they have "total" control over and have a whole department to make sure the A.I. does only what it designed to do. The most the O-12 could ofter Dawn was the back the Nomad/Haqq bid to make them a offical government with all right under the O-12 for them to fight on Paradiso. They need to commander ships of the governments when they want a show of force. Yu Jing on the other hand is the second biggest government and dispite the no loss of love, atleast 2 of the other major players are likely to back Yu Jing if they call for no confidence, more so if it would harm ALEPHs powerbase. O-12 may not be all powerfulbut the are not stupid and wouldn't risk the fallout of openly supporting the independence of Nipponese.

O-12 has more power than you give it credit. As for the results of voting in case of of Nipponese separation, I can see it going either way. In case of an escalation into an open war of separation, I believe 0-12 would be forced to interfere. I don't think Yu Jing can afford to wage war at that point onwards.

 Knight wrote:
O-12 has more power than you give it credit. As for the results of voting in case of of Nipponese separation, I can see it going either way. In case of an escalation into an open war of separation, I believe 0-12 would be forced to interfere. I don't think Yu Jing can afford to wage war at that point onwards.

Sure they could the Nomads would back the play as it would weaking ALEPH, their hated enemy. Haqq is a wild card but if they back Yu Jing then Dawn's government would likely back them too. More so if Yu Jing backed of their play for Dawn and support their effort to remove PanO illegal. Now with Nomads backing Yu Jing PanO suddenly has a problem, they use the Nomads for their mob based serices like the rest of the sphere. As even they know better then to trust the A.I. ALEPH with everything. One more hole in O-12's power base. Like the U.N. they may look like they have real power, but it doesn't seem to stop any government with the might and will form doing what they please and the U.N. quickly "choosing" to back them or just go full hands off but make it look like they are trying. O-12 power comes from the governments like the U.N. their power only goes as far as the powerhouses let it. The E.B.F. fluff wise as of now is a PanO force, if the O-12 had real power it would be a joint op of all the nations guarding the planet that holds every non-space fairing government plus every other government except the Nomads and Dawns.

It's an interesting idea for sure, although you initially think 'no way', examining the political set-up in Infinity makes you think it's something that would be within the realms of possibility.

Hope that CB consider this kind of thing as a future background development of the game. Who knows, they could have a worldwide campaign that, if the result is right, ends up with the Japanese sectorial miniatures becoming part of Pan O

 Pacific wrote:
It's an interesting idea for sure, although you initially think 'no way', examining the political set-up in Infinity makes you think it's something that would be within the realms of possibility.

Hope that CB consider this kind of thing as a future background development of the game. Who knows, they could have a worldwide campaign that, if the result is right, ends up with the Japanese sectorial miniatures becoming part of Pan O

I hiighly doubt it, if CB wanted to pissoff players by moving around a 3rd of their profiles from and army. They wouldd of just stuck with the old story line where the Human Sphere falls and Dwan saves the day by uniting what remains of the other factions. But, CB understands how the player base would react to that so change their whole end game.

 Storm Shadow wrote:
So due to the fact that the Japanese are degraded to second class citizens within Yu Jing society, why don't they reach out to PanO with a request to join? Would they not receive better treatment as a member of the PanO collective.

Possibly, but the Yu Jing government isn't likely to let them go, and I doubt that even PanOceania has the clout to undertake that sort of military action.

As for making it part of the rules, please don't. It was annoying enough when my Invincibles and Ko Dali miniatures were written out, and that was only three models.

Invincibles didn't get written out.
Their units were upgraded to Shang Ji or Zuyong armor, and the old suits go to the Wu Ming, who had virutally identical stats anyway.

Noir wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
It's an interesting idea for sure, although you initially think 'no way', examining the political set-up in Infinity makes you think it's something that would be within the realms of possibility.

Hope that CB consider this kind of thing as a future background development of the game. Who knows, they could have a worldwide campaign that, if the result is right, ends up with the Japanese sectorial miniatures becoming part of Pan O

I hiighly doubt it, if CB wanted to pissoff players by moving around a 3rd of their profiles from and army. They wouldd of just stuck with the old story line where the Human Sphere falls and Dwan saves the day by uniting what remains of the other factions. But, CB understands how the player base would react to that so change their whole end game.

The smart way to implement those narrative based changes is always to have them expand options rather than reduce them.
So in this case you might see a Pan-O sectoral with Japanese seperatist units included as a 'certain number' of Japanese troops defect to Pan-O, but it wouldn't affect the existing Japanese sectoral.

Awesome discussion everyone.

In my attempt to relate my own nationality to a faction similar, i've come to wonder;

when the U.S.A.'s debt was bought out by the PanO collective, was America and American culture assimilated into PanO? I see many other influences, but really nothing from the U.S.A.

No more so than was probably already there.

The USA is pretty much still on its own, back on earth, dealing with the remains of the nanotech war (the grey goo plague) - from weapons they turned on PanO and which backfired.

 chromedog wrote:
No more so than was probably already there.

The USA is pretty much still on its own, back on earth, dealing with the remains of the nanotech war (the grey goo plague) - from weapons they turned on PanO and which backfired.

Where can I read about this fluff? So the USA on Earth is just sort of a low tech minor power?

Core book or in the old Human Sphere. It is only briefly mentioned. I do think it was also mentioned that PanOceania absorbed US territory, although I don't think the US's government survived the nanotech wars. Whatever the case might be, USA on Earth is no more.

All this relates to me trying to decide on which faction to play, heh.

 Killionaire wrote:
Invincibles didn't get written out.
Their units were upgraded to Shang Ji or Zuyong armor, and the old suits go to the Wu Ming, who had virutally identical stats anyway.

Yes, but no matter what they did, I have two miniatures with no stats. 2nd edition had an "Invincibles" unit entry, 3rd does not - a pretty decent definition of "written out",

I'd missed the bit about them going to Wu Míng, though. That'd be an option, if I didn't already have six of 'em.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 plastictrees wrote:
The smart way to implement those narrative based changes is always to have them expand options rather than reduce them.
So in this case you might see a Pan-O sectoral with Japanese seperatist units included as a 'certain number' of Japanese troops defect to Pan-O, but it wouldn't affect the existing Japanese sectoral.

Which has precedent with the mercenary option for Kempetai. It does water down the distinctions between factions, though, which most games don't like doing even when it makes internal sense.

 Storm Shadow wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
No more so than was probably already there.

The USA is pretty much still on its own, back on earth, dealing with the remains of the nanotech war (the grey goo plague) - from weapons they turned on PanO and which backfired.

Where can I read about this fluff? So the USA on Earth is just sort of a low tech minor power?

Yeah, the US is a shell of it's 2016 self in Infinity, having lost loads of territory and prestige in the intervening centuries. I should imagine that, with the full inclusion of the US Ariadna in HSN3, that book will be a great resource for fluff on this in a few weeks.

It's only 175 years in the future, so more like a century and a half, not properly "centuries".

Yeah, the USA is a minor power still licking its wounds from its economic and other collapses (they went mad max instead of Australia ...).

CB has had a figure switch sides. One of the named human characters that was viewed as particularly unbalanced got taken by the Combine Army. So there is a precedent.

However, that was just one character figure. It wasn't a good-sized chunk of an army, which is what would happen if Japan were able to switch sides.



As for the US -

The background quietly shuffles the US onto the sidelines. Given the massive political and military power of the US in the modern-day world, this was likely done as a way to keep the proverbial 800lb. gorilla quiet on the sidelines instead of attempting to throw its weight around. And to keep players (particularly US ones) from arguing over whether it's likely that the US would join Pan-O or not.

Still, assuming that the game keeps expanding, it might be nice to see a Nomad-equipped US contingent at some point in the future (Nomad-equipped because even a slightly resurgent US is guaranteed to cause distractions for the groups that still have presences on Earth - like Pan-O, Aleph, and O-12).

The balance of world power can change very quickly - look at the UK (and Europe actually) leading up to and following WW1 and WW2, versus the power of the US.

If there was a similarly destructive war again in the future it could easily change again once more and over an equal timescale.