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Quick question:

It's often said that melta guns aren't worth it in 30K, because everybody runs vehicles with Armored Ceramite upgrade. But why pay the premium if nobody uses melta guns? And if people would stop buying Armored Ceramite, wouldn't that make melta guns useful again?

What I'm trying to say is: doesn't this depend on the the status of the local meta? Surely it can't be general rules to "always take Armored Ceramite" or "don't bother with melta guns", can it? Why *do* you disregard melta guns (like the majority?) Why *do* you take Armored Ceramite?

That's the trade off we all make when assembling a list. Do we risk death by meltagun to save 20 points? On a rhino or similar, it's not worth it because that meltagun will still most likely blow it to pieces. On a Typhon, I probably would nearly always take it because I want that thing firing for as long as possible.

Same for taking Meltaguns. The more expensive and dangerous the vehicle is, the more likely it'll have AC. So, if I buy them, I need to remember that they won't necessarily wipe out X vehicle, but they may have a better chance of wiping out Y vehicle or tough model Z...

 JTFirefly wrote:
Quick question:

It's often said that melta guns aren't worth it in 30K, because everybody runs vehicles with Armored Ceramite upgrade. But why pay the premium if nobody uses melta guns? And if people would stop buying Armored Ceramite, wouldn't that make melta guns useful again?

What I'm trying to say is: doesn't this depend on the the status of the local meta? Surely it can't be general rules to "always take Armored Ceramite" or "don't bother with melta guns", can it? Why *do* you disregard melta guns (like the majority?) Why *do* you take Armored Ceramite?

I take Armored Ceramite because people I know do use melta guns. And the people I know that do take melta do so because they know that there are a lot of vehicles that can't take it.

Melta isn't useless as the "anti-hype" would have you believe, and I do get some decent use out of Tactical Support Squads with melta. (Especially for kicking in fortifications.)

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

Melta isn't useless as the "anti-hype" would have you believe, and I do get some decent use out of Tactical Support Squads with melta. (Especially for kicking in fortifications.)

Indeed, they still get that Juicy AP1...

I think you'd have to be nuts not to take AC on a >250pts Vehicle, having said that i still think Melta is a good option - there's plenty of things scared of S8 AP1 even without the extra armour pen dice.

I typically do not take AC, as my lists are vehicle-light and my Sicaran - who sees the table almost every time - rarely gets threatened by melta fire due to its long range.

The extra points can be better spent elsewhere, for me.

It's an easy buy on superheavies, spartans, etc, who are more likely to be targeted by melta attacks.

I think that for the larger vehicle threats, AC is almost mandatory to maximize survivability. It might be overkill, but it won't go down to the random Seeker Melta squad lying about.

On Rhinos or transports, where the double armour pen is not mandatory to take them down, it's wasted points. Same goes for any tanks that have one weak sides that doesn't care much about melta.

Meltas are at least useful for stopping FnP so I always include some.

I am forced to include armoured Ceramite - it is standard wargear on the Ordinati Minoris.

I think melta guns still have their use in 30k, but they are not the all rounders they are in 40k. Their are some vehicles that you just don't buy Armored Ceramite for. Rhinos you can punch their armour with out the melts rule anyway. Predators and vindicators have side armour you can punch with a straight s8 also. So many people don't buy AC for the ones equipped with long range weapons. Even on the more close range ones that do buy it, the s8 is still a threat.

Melta weapons are useful as long as you still took enough other anti tank weapons. They can take care of the small stuff so the more dedicated stuff can concentrate on the big targets.

The important question with taking melta is what else you have for anti-tank. If you don't have access to good anti-tank weapons that don't depend on the melta rule then you probably need to take melta anyway and just hope that you don't face AC. On the other hand, if you're filling your fast attack slots with Lightnings armed with anti-tank missiles (STR 8 AP 1 armorbane, not melta) and a bunch of grav Rapiers (haywire) then you probably have the high-AV problem pretty well covered and your melta-capable units should take plasma instead. As a general rule it's probably best to take the non-melta options if you can do so without causing strategy/theme problems for the rest of your army. A battery of grav Rapiers or kraken Lightning is a really good anti-tank threat even without considering AC, so why risk having your anti-tank crippled by AC when you don't have to?

I took a 6 man melta squad in an Anvillus to this year's AdepriCon events, and was surprised by the lack of Armored Cerimite as compared to last year. Meta swings and all that!

They killed some tanks, but always died to a round of shooting right afterwards.

The only melta in my list is that I give all my tactical squad srgs. Combi meltas. They tend to get close anyway.

I like giving meltabombs to the sarge; they're easy to forget about until someone lets a vehicle near them.
I have yet to see my seargents do a 'death or glory!' attempt, but when i do they're going to do it with their meltabombs.

I don't beleive this to be a valid tactic, but it at least throws a spanner in the works of your opponents decision making - its getting a bit 'game theory' i think!

I've personally never put out the points specifically to include a melta weapon so far. If it's close enough to get slagged by a meltagun it's close enough to charge with a meltabomb. That being said, they can be useful. The pair of TL multimeltas on my Achillies have done some good work, though they rarely are within half range.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I like giving meltabombs to the sarge; they're easy to forget about until someone lets a vehicle near them.
I have yet to see my seargents do a 'death or glory!' attempt, but when i do they're going to do it with their meltabombs.

I don't beleive this to be a valid tactic, but it at least throws a spanner in the works of your opponents decision making - its getting a bit 'game theory' i think!

AC doesn't ignore the armour bane rule, only the melta rule. Melta bombs get their full pen.

A game I saw at Adepticon had Robutte Gulliman and a bunch of dudes in a Spartan, ready to roll forward and wreck stuff.

The guy didn't take armored ceramite because "nobody takes melta guns in 30k"

Guess what blew up his Spartan in turn 1? A drop pod with 6 tac support marines with Melta guns...

 Brian P wrote:
A game I saw at Adepticon had Robutte Gulliman and a bunch of dudes in a Spartan, ready to roll forward and wreck stuff.

The guy didn't take armored ceramite because "nobody takes melta guns in 30k"

Guess what blew up his Spartan in turn 1? A drop pod with 6 tac support marines with Melta guns...

That must have been so funny!

I would have loved to have seen the look on his face.

 Brian P wrote:
A game I saw at Adepticon had Robutte Gulliman and a bunch of dudes in a Spartan, ready to roll forward and wreck stuff.

The guy didn't take armored ceramite because "nobody takes melta guns in 30k"

Guess what blew up his Spartan in turn 1? A drop pod with 6 tac support marines with Melta guns...

Awesome, I love watching people feel like idiots over stuff like that.

I've played my Salamanders with their Covenant of Fire RoW and my melta weapons always come in handy. Course I always take melta bombs or some other armor breaking weapons in case of AC as well.

A game I saw at Adepticon had Robutte Gulliman and a bunch of dudes in a Spartan, ready to roll forward and wreck stuff.

The guy didn't take armored ceramite because "nobody takes melta guns in 30k"

Guess what blew up his Spartan in turn 1? A drop pod with 6 tac support marines with Melta guns...

Whilst I get the logic, when you've got a sodding Primarch (400 ponts) and Bodyguard (let's say 300 points) in a Spartan (another 300 points) that's a 1,000 point unit. And you can't find the points for armoured ceramite just in case? Seriously?

As noted, I get ignoring it on 'normal' tanks. In fact on anything with AV13 it's still so-so; melta can still penetrate without needing armourbane. But marine AV14/14/14 tanks go from being dead meat to two meltagun shots to being able to shrug off dozens (especially with a flare shield too), and a Spartan has to throw itself down your opponent's throat to perform it's intended function; it just seems bizzare not to take it.