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Hi. I'm buying new GW brushes for my new Orruk army, but I need advice on whether to purchase either a S Layer brush or a S Artificer Layer brush. I have been painting with brushes from other brands for 5 years, and wondering how GW brushes are. Is the Artificer brush really worth the extra 20 dollars? I am also wondering what kind of brush or tool to use for Citadel Texture paints.

I think if you have to ask that question then the answer is no.
It's hard to tell without pictures of your current skill level and a look into your personal finances.


You've only been doing this for a year and a magic brush won't improve you overnight.
Get some more skills down before you upgrade, you're wasting money at this point.



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As for texture paints, go and grab a coffee with a nice girl somewhere every week or two and take half a dozen extra wooden stirrers.

Alex Kolodotschko I take some offense to your words. I have 5 years of experience in painting and my skill level should not influence your answer. I am merely wondering what the difference is between the two brushes and whether I should get one over the other.

I am really happy with my XS Artificier - it's my new brush for eyes.

I can only go off your profile, gallery images and recent posts mate.
Skill level should certainly influence my answer.
If you've managed to get through a set of brushes in your 1st year then the brushes were either dollar store or you weren't looking after them.
A magic brush will deteriorate just as quickly as any other reasonable brush if you don't look after it.
If you were wondering what the difference between the two brushes is then maybe that should be in your OP.

hcls315 wrote:
Hi. I'm buying new GW brushes for my new Orruk army, but I need advice on whether to purchase a S Layer brush or a S Artificer Layer brush. Is the Artificer brush really worth the extra 20 dollars?

The short of it is that the Artificer brushes are very expensive compared to high quality alternatives. Below are a link to W&N7 brushes, pretty much considered some of the best brushes there are. As you can see they the GW brushes are more expensive.

Even if the GW brushes are good brushes the short answer to your question is that they are not worth the extra 20 dollars.

If you are going for the Artificer brushes anyway just make sure you invest in a good brush soap to keep them alive as long as possible.

@op you shouldn't take offense at what Alex said, there was no hostility there, he took time out of his day to try and help you out based on the info you have presented. Your response was a tad over sensitive.

If you feel that you are a decent painter, get w&n series 7 instead, you can get them cheaper than artificer brushes (which w&n make for gw, so no 2nd party needing profit in the price), and they are generally considered the best brushes for the hobby.

 JamesY wrote:
(which w&n make for gw, so no 2nd party needing profit in the price)

I don't believe that was ever proved.

But yeah, if you're going to spend that much on an "artificer brush" I'd just get one of the more common brands which are cheaper.

As for the non-artificer variety, I dunno, I have heard they're supposed to be half decent for the price, I've not used one though. Are they a cheaper Kolinsky sable brush, or are they a completely different variety?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
(which w&n make for gw, so no 2nd party needing profit in the price)

I don't believe that was ever proved.

I don't need internet verification on a matter I know to be true from my time as an employee

Well the rest of us do I know Rick Priestly said at one point GW commissioned W&N to make them some brushes, but that was years ago, we can't be sure the same thing happened this time (these ones only came out recently if I recall correctly?).

In no sense of the word are GWs artificer brushes "worth" it. Get a proper brush, which is better quality, for a much cheaper price.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well the rest of us do

It's all good, and doesn't really matter, it's amazing how much they actually make themselves, given how common outsourcing is now. It's very rare as consumers to have knowledge of who production is outsourced too, so getting genuine verification is unlikely. The information on the brushes iirc said that the whole range is w&n, although I wouldn't claim that to be definitely, undeniably true. That said, having a gaming buddy in the accounts department has proven to be the best source of reliable information out of all my ex-colleagues.

Windsor & Newton 7 Series, Rosemary &co. 33 series, Raphael 8408 and a couple of other brands I'm not familiar with, but have seen mentioned on the forums, are all of comparable (if not superior) quality to the GW Artificer brushes.

As a general rule you can get GW's auxilliary products from other sources for much less without compromising on quality.

I have one, but I prefer my W&N7 brushes if I'm honest.

Look at the tamiya range, they have some good brushes for a tenth of the price


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Here is a pic

Citadel Brushes are not worth it all around.

Get Windsor and Newton Series 7 brushes. They are cheaper than the GW brushes, MUCH better and if you take care of them properly, will last a very long time.

Apologies to Alex Kolodotschko for my hasty reply; I had the assumption that I was being insulted. The reason I am asking this question is because my current brushes (which comes from a variety of companies) have reached the end of their lives.

GW brushes simply aren't worth the GW price. You can get equal or better quality for less money from some of the other brands already named (Raphael, W&N, etc.).

But, I don't know how easily available they would be to you in Canada (assuming the Canadian flag by your name is accurate).

I'll be going to America within a few months, so hopefully I'll have better luck with brushes there. Thanks everyone for your comments.

In the end it's all about how you take care of your brushes, plain and Simple. You can get a cheap hobby store brush and it can last you for years if you take proper care of it.

As far as worth it:
Asking that here is a minefield, there is some die-Hard brand loyalties and brand hatereds that will often skew responses.

In my brush collection I own Several w&n Series 7s, GW brushes new and old, Army Painter brushes and some craft store cheapies too.

And they all do the job I need for them to do.
I maintain still GW makes some of the best Drybrushs I've ever used. Army painters especially the micro size brushes are a PITA to use, but I love them for crevasse and eye work.

In the end GW brushes are expensive very true, but you're not paying for a craft store brush either, as their quality has risin quite a bit.
And no brush out there is going to make you a master painter over night, they will give you cleaner and better results to your current level however.

So are they worth it?
GW brushes are expensive, good but expensive and you're paying for the name as much as the brush. Are easier to get if you live near a GW shop or Retailer.

W&N brushes are expensive, but less so than GW caveat being most times you have to order them online. But can be found sometimes in better quality art shops.

Both will do the job, both will do it well. Both can be worth it depending on Ease of obtaining, shipping wait time and so on.

But Neither of them will be worth it if you don't have good brush care habits.
Whichever brushes you buyn get some Good Brush cleaner (I recomend from personal use Windsor and Newton cleaner) and Get The Masters Brush Soap, it will do wonders for longevity and condoning your brushes.

hcls315 wrote:
I'll be going to America within a few months, so hopefully I'll have better luck with brushes there. Thanks everyone for your comments.

Get the brushes from here:
http://www.dickblick.com/

Mdlbuildr wrote:

hcls315 wrote:
I'll be going to America within a few months, so hopefully I'll have better luck with brushes there. Thanks everyone for your comments.

Get the brushes from here:
http://www.dickblick.com/

QFT

I've bought all 3 Artificer Brushes. In my opinion, the simple answer to the question of are they worthwhile is "yes", but the full answer is a little longer and more qualified.

First of all, they're good Kolinsky sable brushes, they perform quite well, and over the long run, if you take care of them, they will save a ton of money over chewing through synthetic round brushes that kink very quickly. There's nothing you can't do on them that you could on another top-notch brush set like W&N S7 or Raphael, and the sizes of the 3 are roughly 00, 0, and 1, the most common sizes that you'd buy sable brushes for miniature painting.

The XS brush has very long point, which isn't ideal for everything, but can be advantageous for some applications. The S brush has a nice point and has great control. The S and M brushes are both a little softer (less spring) than Winsor Newton S7, but you have to be very picky to notice; they are much springier than Raphael 8404 brushes, in my opinion. They all maintain a point very well.

The street price of the brushes is a little more than I would pay for the street price of a W&N S7 brush, but frankly, these brushes last long enough (months to years) that a few bucks either way doesn't really matter, at least to me. One advantage is that you can buy them in a hobby shop, whereas most kolinsky brushes requires finding a fine arts store.

At the end of the day, if you keep them clean, they will be useful for a really long time (from dozens to hundreds of minis), as opposed to synthetics, which lose their point after just a few minis. They're definitely quality-wise better than any other brush made by a gaming company like Army Painter or Privateer Press, and they're superior to offerings by hobby companies like PMX, Royal, or Escher. But really, other than Tamiya's kolinsky sable brushes which are super-duper expensive, before the Artificer brushes, practically all hobby brushes were not really comparable to fine arts kolinsky brushes anyhow.

Incidentally, I painted this model almost exclusively with the S and M brushes (the red basecoat and decal application being the exception):

My issue with GW brushes is largely QC. You can get one brilliant one and the very next you buy is a POS. I can't say the same for W&N. You get top notch quality every time. My 2 cents.

The problem, Talys, with the whole argument of a few dollars not making much of a difference in the long run when the brushes can last a year or more, is that a few dollars can make a big difference in the short run. The upfront cost is an important factor when determining what your budget can even afford to begin with.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The problem, Talys, with the whole argument of a few dollars not making much of a difference in the long run when the brushes can last a year or more, is that a few dollars can make a big difference in the short run. The upfront cost is an important factor when determining what your budget can even afford to begin with.

Yeah, no argument with you there.

That's why I qualified it and put it into the perspective of how many models a synthetic brush is good for (while keeping its point). If you're ever only going to paint 25 models, you're probably wasting your money. If you're going to paint 250 models AND you plan on taking care of your brushes, natural hair brushes start to look a lot more attractive. Also, whether you're going to paint 2 squads a week, or a squad every 2 weeks makes a big difference too: if you're painting enough stuff, you'll just be hucking those synthetic brushes into the brush graveyard really quickly. I suspect that anyone who is in that position, however, is well familiar with the problem.

Another way to look at it too -- for people who just want to abuse their brushes, toss 'em and start fresh with a new brush, just buy something cheap

@Mdlbuildr - I absolutely love W&N brushes. It's funny you say that, though, because I recall a few years back, people were all up in arms about how W&N brushes were no longer consistent I never found that to be the case, personally; like you, they've always been really consistently good to me. and I love that I know exactly what I'm getting into with my next brush. One issue with GW brushes (and other hobby brushes) is that they sit in open bins. Idiots tend to take off the caps and play with them and mess them up, then stick them back in the bins... At least with the GW Artificer brushes, they're in the tubes, which discourages that a little bit.

Jeez Talys, you need to get out of Canada, mate! It's not a small difference on this side of the Atlantic. The Artificer, Medium brush is £16 whereas I can grab a Rosemary and Co. 33 Series size 1 for £4.40 or a Winsor Newton 7 Series size 1 for £7-9. I am presuming 1 is analogous with M.

The difference is slightly less pronounced as you go down the scales. GW Artificer S is £14 where R & Co 0 is £4.25 and GW Artificer XS is £12 where R & Co 2/0 is £.4.15. Winsor and Newton stays in the £7 - 9 bracket for both.0 and 00.

Worth noting that many charge more for W & N, but if you (a general you this time) can't find them in the price bracket I've specified, I would (uncharitably) question how you manage to dress yourself in the morning...

I do, however appreciate, that the things that make Canada worth living in may outweigh cheaper brushes.

Artificer Layer M from GW Direct - $45
Winsor and Newton S7 1 from Eckersleys (a very expensive paint shop) - $37.95
W&N S7 1 from discount online retailer here - $20

W&N is less than half the price, and at least equal quality