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Ok pretty simple question. So a company master with the Demi company in terminator armor is Deathwing. Your death wing redemption force deploys via deep strike without rolling. I'm fairly certain but I want to check if there is any way I can deploy the company master with the Deathwing redemption force?

Since he is an Independent Character, couldn't he attach to one of the Redemption Force's squads?

That's my interpretation of it. Then subsequently deep strike via the death wing strike during whatever turn you've nominated for it. The only other alternative for this interpretation is, no he belong to Demi and not Deathwing even though it says Deathwing in his profile he isn't apart of that detachment so there fore cannot deploy as they do. So you would roll for his deployment as normal reserve roll.

I'm really hoping it's the former interpretation and not the latter. Because i would very much like to deploy him with the terminator command squad along with belial.

as a dark angel player myself i would argue no, simply because only the units/characters in the formations can benefit from the command bonuses and attaching him to a unit would give him the bonus as well.

plus on a side note the formation specifically indicates only "units from this formation arrive automatically"

From 'Independent Character' (pg. 166, main rulebook):

While an Independent Character is a part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

See that's the part I'm stuck on. As a part of the Demi he wouldn't be able to deploy with the Deathwing. However as an independent character if you assign him to a unit in the Deathwing he would now be able to by adopting their deployment rules. Since he already has Deathwing and terminator armor that of course further supports this.

Wagz86 wrote:
See that's the part I'm stuck on. As a part of the Demi he wouldn't be able to deploy with the Deathwing. However as an independent character if you assign him to a unit in the Deathwing he would now be able to by adopting their deployment rules. Since he already has Deathwing and terminator armor that of course further supports this.

Formations don't dictate where independent characters go. As an Independent Character, he can join one of the units of the Deathwing Redemption Force and deploy with them. If he does, he gains their rules too.

Saweeeeetttttt! In gonna print this topic and carry it with me stapled to my list lol. Though I completely welcome anyone with a counter argument.

Wagz86 wrote:
Saweeeeetttttt! In gonna print this topic and carry it with me stapled to my list lol. Though I completely welcome anyone with a counter argument.

While I do agree with the above, I don't think "Anonymous people on the internet told me I was right. See I printed it off." will fly as proof in a discussion.

while that's true, the formation says specifically states only units from this can arrive in the manner described. and while characters are assigned at the beginning of a game true they still have to follow deployment rules.

for example you have 10 marines in a rhino, now of course the character can join that unit BUT that unit can no longer be embarked on that vehicle since it surpasses the maximum capacity.

i would say though since it is a bit of a grey area and slightly open to interpretation your company master could join a DW redemption unit and that unit would forfeit it command ability to auto arrive when noted and instead would simply deepstrike per the normal rules. if i were your opponent thats how i would play it or if i was running the list that's how i would run it as well.


on a similar page though im not familiar and dont have th rules infront of me, but would it be possible to have the units and company master deepstrike alone and have the units use their free run to join up after deploying? can IC "run" into units? again thats just spitballing ***not sure how valid that is rules wise though***

Joining takes place on the move phase correct? Originally thats how I was going to do it but the free move DW is doing is a RUN move and not a normal MOVE during the movement phase. But in any event that's how I'll deploy it if someone doesn't like my interpretation of it.

yea that's just what i wasn't sure about if models can join unite outside the movement phase by running, consolidation, etc

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
as a dark angel player myself i would argue no, simply because only the units/characters in the formations can benefit from the command bonuses and attaching him to a unit would give him the bonus as well.

plus on a side note the formation specifically indicates only "units from this formation arrive automatically"

and an IC counts as part of the unit it joins "for all rules purposes"

There are many members of dakka that disagree. fortunately, this is related to one of the most popular questions on the FAQ thread, and so with any luck, it will be answered soon

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
while that's true, the formation says specifically states only units from this can arrive in the manner described. and while characters are assigned at the beginning of a game true they still have to follow deployment rules.

And Independent Characters can join a unit in Reserves before the game begins.

And when an IC joins a unit, it counts as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes, and there is nothing which allows for it to be recognized as its own unit while joined to another.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
i would say though since it is a bit of a grey area and slightly open to interpretation your company master could join a DW redemption unit and that unit would forfeit it command ability to auto arrive when noted and instead would simply deepstrike per the normal rules. if i were your opponent thats how i would play it or if i was running the list that's how i would run it as well.

There is nothing in the Deathwing detachments which cause their units to lose their rules or ability to use their rules when an extra-detachment Character has joined them. The same restrictions Fleet has are simply not in existence in them.

Now, the IC would need Deep Strike in order to be in Deep Strike Reserves with the rest of the Deathwing units, but that is not exactly the same thing.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
on a similar page though im not familiar and dont have th rules infront of me, but would it be possible to have the units and company master deepstrike alone and have the units use their free run to join up after deploying? can IC "run" into units? again thats just spitballing ***not sure how valid that is rules wise though***

Unless Slow and Purposeful, units can Run after Deep Strike, but actual joining would have to wait until the player's next Movement Phase.

okay ya i wasnt sure with the whole running thing as i said dont have the main rules directly in front of me an i personally never encountered a scenario that would make .me experienced in the matter

for the whole "losing benefit" thing i loosely stated thatvwas more or less a house balancing suggestion or the way i would run it by my opponent if willing

basically its a grey area and that cannot be denied, the independent character rules state one thing and the formation rules specifically state the opposite. again is there a rule of thumb to go by here that i am not aware of in temrs of which book to go by in these cases? it was nice in warhammer fantasy 8th edition because Gw released it in an faq that the general rule.of thumb is in the event of conflicting rules the Army book rules trump the core rulebook. is this the case here or vice versa or ia it more or less mootpoint ask your opponent if its ok

The way I look at it right now is. In order for us to clarify this. There are several questions that need to be answered. I'll list those questions in order as best as I can think of and see what you all have to say

First: Assuming the company master is equipped with terminator armor (which he is for this purpose) and inherently comes with the Deathwing rule(he does) meaning he CAN legally deploy with a Deathwing squad from the Deathwing formation. Does by deploying him attached to a Deathwing squad now mean that he no longer counts as still being apart of Demi company. Meaning is the force orginzation prerequisite still satisfied or is now vacant?

If we agree that the IC can deploy with Deathwing while still occupiing the Demi company HQ slot then...

Question two: can he confer the Deathwing special deployment onto himself or is it like the codex says where only members of the Deathwing list can deploy that way OR are we effectively agreeing that the IC now technically belongs to both lists simultaneously. Further, per the IC rules does he now absorb in that way all the rules associated the attached squad more specifically their deployment rule.

My punctuation obviously sucks. But I'm more or less just free thinking at this point.

and thats where the conflict is happening (in my mind) he is under the rules of IC legally affiliated to both formations which under the formations section clearly states in bold that each unit can only ever belong to a single formation. which characters in all intents and purposes are their own unit and as a result cannot benefit from multiple formation rules.


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and i think the reason for that is because one unit/model/IC whatever shouldn't be aloud to benefit from multiple command rules.

Rules are only conferred by an IC onto the unit he joins if the special rule says it is.

Any unit never stops being part of the formation they are a part of, nor do battlefield roles change mid-game, nor does your list somehow change mid-game. If you have built a legal list, there's no possible way to deploy that somehow makes your list suddenly illegal. Thar be monsters and madness.

If he joins the Deathwing unit he is part of that unit "for all rules purposes." That unit can do some special stuff, so he gets to do it also (IMO). (Unless the rule says something like "all models in the unit must have this special rule.")


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 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
he is under the rules of IC legally affiliated to both formations

No he isn't. Being a part of a unit on the tabletop does not somehow magically change what detachment the model/unit was purchased as part of.

in the end i have to say theres simply too many conflicting rules going on without a clear concrete answer, i would simply prepare two lists one with a slight modification pending on how your opponent feels and just clarify prior to starting the game. I think that would be the most sportsman way to approach withoit having a rules debate midgame


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well again the crossroads, the deathwing formation does not confer their command abilities to anyone, it says plain as day "only units in this formation may "... in my interpretation that supplements the core rules, buddy is not part of the formation therfore he may not

rocksteadygreeny wrote:for the whole "losing benefit" thing i loosely stated that was more or less a house balancing suggestion or the way i would run it by my opponent if willing

What needs to be balanced about it? Would you deny an IC from another Deathwing detachment from participating?

rocksteadygreeny wrote:basically its a grey area and that cannot be denied, the independent character rules state one thing and the formation rules specifically state the opposite. again is there a rule of thumb to go by here that i am not aware of in temrs of which book to go by in these cases? it was nice in warhammer fantasy 8th edition because Gw released it in an faq that the general rule.of thumb is in the event of conflicting rules the Army book rules trump the core rulebook. is this the case here or vice versa or ia it more or less mootpoint ask your opponent if its ok

It really isn't that grey, and they really don't say opposite things. A lot of this "greyness" comes from a lack of understanding of the relationship between ICs and units. ICs can be units on their own (and start Deployment that way), but they are also models which can basically become models in other units.

The IC rule states that the Special Rules do not confer unless they state like Stubborn. Stubborn doesn't confer itself, but it confers its benefits to the unit, and only the unit.

Who does the Deathwing detachment rules address? The units, and only the units (aside from the Warlord Traits). How are Deathwing detachment units any different than Stubborn units?

rocksteadygreeny wrote:
well again the crossroads, the deathwing formation does not confer their command abilities to anyone, it says plain as day "only units in this formation may "... in my interpretation that supplements the core rules, buddy is not part of the formation therfore he may not

Incorrect. The Deathwing detachments' special rules are all applied to the units and models which originally make up those detachments.

And while it is true that as a unit the DC IC is not part the Deathwing detachment., can you demonstrate that the IC is operating as his own unit when joined to another (i.e. a unit within a unit)?

OP: This is a debate that follows the same logic path as attaching ICs into a Skyhammer Ann. Force Assault Squad and allowing the the IC to assault the same turn the unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. There have been several threads debating the same rules quandary. There has been two ways players interpret this: either the IC gains the Formation benefit or the IC does not gain the Formation benefit. If your local area allows the IC and Skyhammer combo, then your DW concept will work in the same fashion.

 Charistoph wrote:

It really isn't that grey, and they really don't say opposite things. A lot of this "greyness" comes from a lack of understanding of the relationship between ICs and units. ICs can be units on their own (and start Deployment that way), but they are also models which can basically become models in other units.

The IC rule states that the Special Rules do not confer unless they state like Stubborn. Stubborn doesn't confer itself, but it confers its benefits to the unit, and only the unit.

Who does the Deathwing detachment rules address? The units, and only the units (aside from the Warlord Traits). How are Deathwing detachment units any different than Stubborn units?

And i not need to point out how this *discussion* ended the last 2-3 times the IC being affected by formation rules (skyhammer as example) it was brought on this forums.


Both positions have been debated at nauseum and argued for and against, personally i think unless the OP is playing some kind of tourney (check the specific rules there) the IC is allowed to join and deep strike even if i personally think rules do not allow.

Fluff wise it's a friggin veteran with hundreds of years of service to the chapter i'm pretty sure he know the drill and basic maneuvers at this point!

based on this say ok ic do whatever they want regardless of formation rules. based on that lets go with this example and you tell me if its something you would agree with.

Grey knight nemesis strike force, yo take as many characters as ypu can, and the rest deepstriking termies. allied detachment of blood angels and you rolljump out with a bunch of assault marine units and charcters in jump packs or termie armor. now since battle brothers the IC can hang out with whoever they want so i take my BA charcters. and throw them into all my gk units and all my gks characters in my BA deepstrikes. according to you nobody loses their formation rules so everybody gets to show up turn one on 3plus because the units bring the BA characters along and the gk bring ba units with them.

NSF has fewer restrictions saying units from this formation. so that all sounds perfectly fair to you guys?


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also font compare stubborn to this as its a special rule an entirely different aspect of the game, leadership which has its own process of how to resolve it. formation dont confer their special rules to models that dont belong to it. my DA demi company doesnt give its fire dicipline to the ravenwing squad my company master might join.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:

Grey knight nemesis strike force, yo take as many characters as ypu can, and the rest deepstriking termies. allied detachment of blood angels and you rolljump out with a bunch of assault marine units and charcters in jump packs or termie armor. now since battle brothers the IC can hang out with whoever they want so i take my BA charcters. and throw them into all my gk units and all my gks characters in my BA deepstrikes. according to you nobody loses their formation rules so everybody gets to show up turn one on 3plus because the units bring the BA characters along and the gk bring ba units with them.


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also font compare stubborn to this as its a special rule an entirely different aspect of the game, leadership which has its own process of how to resolve it. formation dont confer their special rules to models that dont belong to it. my DA demi company doesnt give its fire dicipline to the ravenwing squad my company master might join.

Your typos are beginning to proliferate, which indicates you're getting fired up. Remember this is just a game, and we're all trying to figure out the rules. If you happen to be wrong, that doesn't make you a bad person.

No one is saying that BA units would gain GK formation rules. A GK IC that joins a BA unit does not somehow change the faction of the unit. It's still a BA unit and only affected by BA formation rules.
But the GK IC does become part of the BA unit "for all rules purposes," which many people interpret to mean that IC is affected by the rules that affect the BA unit, including things like Stubborn and command benefits.

sorry im actually typing from my phone im honestly not getting fired up or anything just bad fingerwork lol

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
based on this say ok ic do whatever they want regardless of formation rules. based on that lets go with this example and you tell me if its something you would agree with.

Grey knight nemesis strike force, yo take as many characters as ypu can, and the rest deepstriking termies. allied detachment of blood angels and you rolljump out with a bunch of assault marine units and charcters in jump packs or termie armor. now since battle brothers the IC can hang out with whoever they want so i take my BA charcters. and throw them into all my gk units and all my gks characters in my BA deepstrikes. according to you nobody loses their formation rules so everybody gets to show up turn one on 3plus because the units bring the BA characters along and the gk bring ba units with them.

NSF has fewer restrictions saying units from this formation. so that all sounds perfectly fair to you guys?

You think this interpretation is based on fairness? When did I say it was or was not fair?

And no, they do not actually LOSE them. They may not be able to access them, though, and there is a significant difference.

For example, a GK IC from a Nemesis Strike Force that joins a Blood Angels unit is not operating as a GK unit, but only as a model of the Blood Angels unit. So any rule that targets a UNIT from the Nemesis Strike Force would not affect either the GK IC (he's not counting as his own unit right now) nor the Blood Angels unit (they aren't part of the Nemesis Strike Force).

Again, I have to point out that a lot of this "confusion" and "grey area" is largely due to misconceptions between the relationship the game places between models and units. To many people equate the two while nothing could be further from the truth in these cases.

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
also font compare stubborn to this as its a special rule an entirely different aspect of the game, leadership which has its own process of how to resolve it. formation dont confer their special rules to models that dont belong to it. my DA demi company doesnt give its fire dicipline to the ravenwing squad my company master might join.

I can and will compare it to Stubborn. Stubborn is a Universal Special Rule. Summoned To War is a Command Benefit, which in turn is a detachment special rule according to the definition of Command Benefit. Deathwing Assault is a Formation Special Rule.

And yes, Leadership has its own process which resolves around the unit. So does Arriving From Reserves and Deep Strike. Indeed, with a couple of exceptions, Shooting is handled on a unit basis, but performed by models.

However, you are correct on the Demi-Company's Fire Discipline. Here let me show you the key differences by underlying the targets of Fire Discipline and Summoned To War.

Fire Discipline: Unless Jinking, all models in this Formation that have the Grim Resolve special rule count their Ballistic Skill as 3 instead of 2 when firing Overwatch.

Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.

See, the difference is "models" vs "units". Stubborn affects the unit. Summoned To War affects the unit. Relentless affects the model. Fire Discipline affects the model.

And there is zero rules in any GW product that state Detachment special rules only affect the models that come with them any more (or any less) than the Universal Special Rules.

Right so then back to one of my previous quandaries. If all "UNITS" deploy that way and we put the IC with that unit so he becomes part of that unit and now deploys that way. Does that mean the IC now no longer belongs to the Demi company and no longer satisfies the minimum prerequisite for the Demi company?
Here's how I think we should examine it.
By steps: (and let me know if I have this right)
The very beginning of the game I have my lists written in hand
The lions blade strike force with 1 Demi company and 1 Deathwing redemption force as its make up.

You now declare your deployments correct (who you are holding in reserve etc)
This is also when you declare that the IC (the company master in termie armor with DEATHWING in his profile) is deploying with the Deathwing command squad.

I mean technically your force organization was already established and you are not actually changing that because this took place in a separate step. Am I correct in this?

Wagz86 wrote:
Right so then back to one of my previous quandaries. If all "UNITS" deploy that way and we put the IC with that unit so he becomes part of that unit and now deploys that way. Does that mean the IC now no longer belongs to the Demi company and no longer satisfies the minimum prerequisite for the Demi company?

Is your list illegal if a squad suffers a few casualties that drop it below minimum squad size during the game?

 Ghaz wrote:

Wagz86 wrote:
Right so then back to one of my previous quandaries. If all "UNITS" deploy that way and we put the IC with that unit so he becomes part of that unit and now deploys that way. Does that mean the IC now no longer belongs to the Demi company and no longer satisfies the minimum prerequisite for the Demi company?

Is your list illegal if a squad suffers a few casualties that drop it below minimum squad size during the game?

Adding to that:

Is your list illegal when your Warlord dies? Any one unit from either Formation?

Do you become Unbound when an Allied Detachment's sole HQ is destroyed? Or hey, even if both CAD's HQs join a unit in their own Detachment?

List requirements are generally not considered once deployment begins. The units have been properly purchased, and certain models can alter what unit they are operating with. We are not told that detachments lose their special rules or identity when the units are no longer in play, and this is an expected outcome with so many ways to "kill" models.

look the main point im trying to get at is the fact that formations have specific requirements, those units and only those units get to benefit from their command rule, characters by themselves are a unit they are considered a unit for all intents and purposes thats why if you kill an IC you get first blood do you not? based on that, the IC NOT being a UNIT in the deathwing formation should not benefit from the command rule.

the formation rules sate ONLY the units can benefit, the universal rule states that ICs can join any units they want (although i believe while some special rules can be shared via circumstance formation rules cannot IMO)

the only question that needs to be answered is whether the core rules supercedes the army books, that is my arguement. because they are saying opposite things.

also theres no need to be condescending about models being wiped through gameplay, the question at hand is based on legal deployment and whether or not a loophole has been found amongst formation special rules and independent characters.