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I like the Bloc Light mecha substantially more than the other one, and I didn't dislike the other one. I think I'd get the resin cast of this one, if/when available.

Honestly this project is maybe the one I'm most excited about at the moment, presume the rules are fairly accessible.

 paulson games wrote:
They are likely going to be several weeks apart. It wasn't the best of planning but I didn't have the ability (and money) to tackle printing more than one at a time. If anyone wants me to hold their raptors to ship at the same time as these I can (which can save on shipping), however I'm not sure exactly how soon that is going to be. I'll try and keep you guys in the loop as get more info on the Neo-Bloc mech.

Any thoughts about releasing more mechs, or going straight to kickstarter after this one? I like the one a month thing youve got started...

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
They are likely going to be several weeks apart. It wasn't the best of planning but I didn't have the ability (and money) to tackle printing more than one at a time. If anyone wants me to hold their raptors to ship at the same time as these I can (which can save on shipping), however I'm not sure exactly how soon that is going to be. I'll try and keep you guys in the loop as get more info on the Neo-Bloc mech.

Any thoughts about releasing more mechs, or going straight to kickstarter after this one? I like the one a month thing youve got started...

Mad4Minis... you just made a ton of sense regarding the one-a-month thing. I know the game can't grow out of 50 castings, but you seem to be managing it fairly well, Jon.

And yes, I'd like to get my Raptor sooner, screw the double postage, I'll pay it.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
They are likely going to be several weeks apart. It wasn't the best of planning but I didn't have the ability (and money) to tackle printing more than one at a time. If anyone wants me to hold their raptors to ship at the same time as these I can (which can save on shipping), however I'm not sure exactly how soon that is going to be. I'll try and keep you guys in the loop as get more info on the Neo-Bloc mech.

Any thoughts about releasing more mechs, or going straight to kickstarter after this one? I like the one a month thing youve got started...

Mad4Minis... you just made a ton of sense regarding the one-a-month thing. I know the game can't grow out of 50 castings, but you seem to be managing it fairly well, Jon.

And yes, I'd like to get my Raptor sooner, screw the double postage, I'll pay it.

Ditto on the postage, worth paying the extra to get em in hand faster.

I think it would be awesome if he did one a month, or maybe one class for both factions each month. It would keep things manageable on his end, and more affordable for us.

But it'll be ridiculously time-intensive for him. I can't believe he's making *that* much money by selling those 50 casts at that price. And I've been told that resin casting is very man-hours demanding. I want Paulson to be rich, not my personal slave.

Although...

The resin models are basically a break even venture, I don't really see any money out of it but it allows me to pay for prints and the molding costs for the metal versions, or possibly prints of the next mech. As I'm doing all the 3d work and casting all it costs me is time it's a way to fund stuff slowly.

While KS has worked out well for some companies I'm not entirely sure it's what I want. Lately there's been a lot of toxcity generated on KS towards even sucessful projects, people have forgotten that it's meant to help fund start ups (which means delays and even failures) and instead everybody treats it like a pre-ordering system. If a company is only using them as a platform to take pre-orders what exactly does KS provide? It creates a lot of extra stresses and imposed deadlines and while it reaches a larger audience I'm not sure I see that as a favorable trade off.

If I release 1-2 mechs a month its a much slower start but it's at a pace I'm 100% confident in rather than feeling rushed or needing to completely restructure my schedual because pledges cause it to blow up too quickly. People on KS have created a toxic atmosphere with demands and arguements about backing, large companies have perverted the use of KS by pre-ordering to the point that people expect every small company to be able to bring huge discounts to the table and have a massive infastructure when they are just getting started. It's created a very inbalanced enviroment and unfortunately in many cases the artist creating the KS ventures are recieving an undue amount of stress and difficulty in trying to accomidate the backers. I look at how quickly several of the current kickstarters have spiraled out of control (raging heroes for instance) because they are desperstely trying to appease their supporters but it's clear they are in over their heads and they've expanded so fast they've actually lost control of their own project.

If I can use the resin model pre-orders to fund the greater portion of the process then it'd allow me to launch a KS at a point where most everything is already in place and it virtually eliminates any chance of delays as all the bases are covered.

I think you'll be doing yourself a great disservice by refusing to use Kickstarter or IndieGoGo. Both still serve the primary purpose of helping small companies garner advertising and expansion or operating capital. While you can argue the point if Mantic, Palladium, CMON are corrupting it's purpose or abusing it, it really doesn't matter for your purposes. From what I've gathered from this thread, your exactly what KS or Indie was built to help. Hopefully your project is as wildly successful as Raging Heroes and if it is, it may require some more planning on your part. I know the ogre KS was successful beyond their wildest dreams and they came out with a statement saying that this will take some extra time. I don't believe that really bothered anybody. As to specifically the toxic atmosphere on KS, it's the internet. Once somebody/something becomes popular there are folks who sole purpose in life is to knock it down. Those aren't the folks who you're making the project for and they won't likely be contributors.

Not saying that I'm pulling the plug on using KS, just that I want to be situated a bit better before I commit to it.

Also take a look at Xia. Its done by one guy. It had an initial goal of $100K which was the cost to actually make the game. Some people complained and said he'd never get there. Almost at $300K now.

Look at those projects,

but also ones like Red Box Games where Tre seems to have felt it was a disaster even though he pulled in about $140K

have an accountant tell you how to handle getting a load of cash in suddenly. Tre ended up paying loads of it in tax (and I'm sure with a bit better planning at least some of that could have been written off/deferred)

Think about shipping, he lost out there from what he's said

And think about how you price the pledge levels and stretches (he gave so much to the higher level pledges these reportedly turned into losses for him)

KS is a great tool and will give you great publicity, but you do need to be wary about it (as you say)

Given the toxicity of the TGG kickstarter, I'm inclined to agree. Avoiding it might be for the best.

 Valhallan42nd wrote:
Given the toxicity of the TGG kickstarter, I'm inclined to agree. Avoiding it might be for the best.

For the time being, certainly. While RH isn't in the exact same situation as Paulson, it would still be a good idea to let that cesspool of ill will dissipate a bit before launching a campaign.

TBH, launching a game via Kickstarter is much less stressful then launching it without Kickstarter, at least until the shipping stage. (Depending on the length of time between Kickstarter finish and shipping stage.)

csimian wrote:
Also take a look at Xia. Its done by one guy. It had an initial goal of $100K which was the cost to actually make the game. Some people complained and said he'd never get there. Almost at $300K now.

While this is a great example, I do think that paulson is in a slightly different place. The Xia guy had been working on the board game for years, whereas paulson is just ramping up Mecha Front this past year. So, continuing with the release in resin of a mech a month, say, for several months would put him in a much better position before going into a KS.

Imo

I hope theres some of those mechs left come payday on tuesday! Just hope shipping to the uk isnt going to cripple me with vat and import duties!

Loving the latest design, whilst id jump straight in on any ks, being able to pick up a nice new mech each month whilst you build up funds and material is a great idea.

One thing I've noticed watching the various KS threads as well as general release threads is that many people are completely blowing their budgets on KS projects which may leave them unable to contribute to other games for 6 months or even a year. I've run into that issue myself with Zombicide, while I love the game and and glad to have backed both of their KS projects it does leave my wallet with a giant void and nothing to show for a long stretch of time.

Doing a small run of resin versions allows people to help out with some of the start up funding and get a much faster turn around on when they recieve the items. It also allows them to make smaller purchases which sounds like people are preferring a bit due to stuff like bills or being stretched thin by supporting other projects easlier in the year.

I certainly see value in doing a KS, and still plan on using it once I'm at the point I'm ready, but it's not completely free of of it's own pitfalls.

One of the major concerns I have are the quads, they are of a scale that very few other companies offer (and for good reason). They are going to be far more involved to make than any other items in the line and if I don't get the pricepoint balance exactly right they could sink the whole line. I have production prices locked in for the smaller scale mecha, but the quads I'm still working with projected theoretical numbers on which has me very gun shy on KSing them before I have exact costs figured. They could easily end up costing me a lot of money and be a terrible PR experience if something were to go sour on the pricing or with the ability to get them made.

Could you not leave the quads aside for a later date? I know I prefer smaller mechs myself (I was a fan of the Mongoose, in Battletech) and they are certainly easier to move around a table full of terrain.

Personally, and I don't think I've been too vitriolic in my comments on other KS threads, I see two different types of gaming KS as clearly defined. The first type is, as you say, bigger or well established companies using KS as more of a long-term pre-order rather than to, dare I say it, kickstart themselves literally from the ground up.

Second type is for smaller operations that aren't selling stuff yet, have a good idea and want to get it to market but can't in this economy. I give these a lot of leeway regarding delays because this scale of operation is unknown to them. I sunk a bit of money on Black Water Gulch's 2nd KS, they were thinking of maybe beating their dealines by 3 months, and I'm not even bothered that it didn't happen. Impudent Mortal got me my buildings 3 months late, I never said a word because it's this one guy literally inhaling sawdust in his garage every weekend.

I think as long as you can fund the printing and mould prep of mechas one by one, do so. At least you have no one pestering you as it is your own capital.

Like I said, im fine with both ways, but I really like the 1 or 2 mech a month thing. Both in the fact that it gets me stuff quicker, and its more affordable.

True. Besides... it makes me feel like I am spending on a budget. I feel so adult all of a sudden.

I think the time to do a kickstarter is after you have production molds of a few of the mechs and want to fund the next one. You can offer the purchase of metal models of your first few as part of the KS for those who want to buy more than one thing and copies of the new model as well.

And don't do heavy discounting. You'll already take a heavy hit from KS taking their chunk, so don't end up in the situation of losing money on it. You already have your flat $4/$8/$10 shipping charges (I'm assuming they work for you given that you're doing it now), so you can probably factor in everything you need to charge in order to not lose money.

You'll still want a sweet spot though, where a discount is obvious, but the amount spent is high enough that you don't mind.

And be careful about the Kickstarter funding in one fiscal period but then incurring the costs related to the project in another fiscal period. Or some costs might be classified as capital investment and you won't get quite the write off you were expecting and instead have to depreciate it over multiple years.

Make your stretch goals about funding what you plan on doing next rather then as goodie baskets for people looking for cheap stuff. And remember that if you have $10K to reach a stretch goal, but in doing so people claim $7K worth of mechs you have to cast, you've only raised $3K to cover the stretch goal's costs.

Kickstarter is made for projects like yours and if you are honest in your challenges section and reiterate that this is about funding your next mech and not about big discount preorders, I think you'll find the negative people will say their piece and then fade away.

Yes. And for whomever's sake, have a stretch goal map that is realistic and stick to it. Even if it balloons at first.

I'm assuming you'll want action shots of our mechas once they are painted?

I uploaded the 1.2 version of the rules to the mecha front yahoo group. If anyone has a problem with yahoo groups shoot me a PM with your address and I'll email you a copy.

Lots of minor revisions, sensor points have changed, aiming has changed, clarified rules about targeting buildings and terrain destruction.




Current progress on the Neo-Bloc light:

From concept art I thought I'd be more keen on the NorAm mechs, but with latest render...

Thanks for posting the updated rules! One question I didn't see amended in the rules:

I roll to hit location, get a critical, decide to roll again to apply the crit to a random location and get another critical result. Do I

A: Choose where it goes

B: Have the option to apply ANOTHER critical and reroll again

C: Either or?

katfude wrote:
From concept art I thought I'd be more keen on the NorAm mechs, but with latest render...

I like the body of the Neo Bloc mech better, but I prefer the legs of the NorAm.


However, as an overall I do like them both.

Neo-Bloc mech is looking fantastic! Making me doubt my favorite faction already

 paulson games wrote:

One of the major concerns I have are the quads, they are of a scale that very few other companies offer (and for good reason). They are going to be far more involved to make than any other items in the line and if I don't get the pricepoint balance exactly right they could sink the whole line. I have production prices locked in for the smaller scale mecha, but the quads I'm still working with projected theoretical numbers on which has me very gun shy on KSing them before I have exact costs figured. They could easily end up costing me a lot of money and be a terrible PR experience if something were to go sour on the pricing or with the ability to get them made.

To be honest, I like the idea of 15mm mechs but I think it's a mistake for you as a company to do them in that scale, especially in regards to the quads. If you're not doing it in the 5/6mm industry mech "standard", you're losing out on sales from an important segment of people who are already into the genre. I realize that you're trying to do your own thing but I wouldn't poo poo how much fans of other mech games are willing to shell out for tiny robots. In addition, the quads (from the description you gave a while back so correct me if I'm wrong) are going to clock in at between a carnifex and tyrannid monstrous creatures (or defilers) in size. That's a solid chunk of resin and I was very surprised at your pricing estimates from a few months back. I don't think the average joe mech player will splurge the $60+ that something resin that size would likely have to cost at retail for you to make a worthwhile profit via FLGS. Again, if I'm wrong about the actual sizes of the mechs, feel free to correct me.

katfude wrote:

Thanks for posting the updated rules! One question I didn't see amended in the rules:

I roll to hit location, get a critical, decide to roll again to apply the crit to a random location and get another critical result. Do I

A: Choose where it goes

If the roll for the location results in a ccritical (rolling a 12) and you opt to apply critical damage and your second location roll also results in another critical (again rolling a 12) You would now pick the location and apply critical damage. (marking the damage collum from the bottom up)

The double crit doesn't happen often but it's brutal when it does as even against the heaviest of mechs it can be used to aplly damage directly to the engine posisbly killy the enemy mech in one hit (even if it's only a single point of damage)

 warboss wrote:
To be honest, I like the idea of 15mm mechs but I think it's a mistake for you as a company to do them in that scale, especially in regards to the quads.

There is an established crowd for 15mm games that are hungry for mechs in this scale. The Quads are essentially the same size as the Colossals from Warmachine and despite their cost being around $130 there is no shortage of players using as many copies as they can squeeze into their list. The larger scale also appeals to people who also just want a large model to have as a cool display piece, lots of people build robots in this scale as hobby projects completely unconnected to gaming.

There are a good number of people using the MW Dark Age clicks models and older 1/144 or 1/200 scale model kits in order to fill the need for mecha in the 15mm ranges, the problem is that they are all discontinued products. Some are easy to get ahold of but many are very difficult to obtain reliably as they've been out of print for 10-15 years. Additionally there's a pervasive trend in 15mm is to use build forces using a mix of ranges. The 15mm market is supported primarily by small companies who don't offer complete lines of everything imaginable so cross line pollination is basically expected if you want to have any sort of diverse army list. Tanks from Company A, infantry from this Company B, helicopters from Company C for example.

The 6mm market ie battletech is pretty self contained they don't tend ot make much use out of miniatures from other ranges, and in offical events use of otehr lines is not permitted. There's a lot of people who jumped into the Robotech KS to get "unseens" but that demand is mostly artifical as those designs were once part of the battletech setting. They have a history with the game that people want to use where models by other companies do not (and are not typically used). I'm active on a number of btech forums, there's lots of interest in customizing offical models but there's far less talk when it comes to non-btech lines. There is a cult-like following to Btech that rejects anything not produced by CGL/IWM, even Robotech barely got more than a nod on some of the 6mm battletech forums, and they aren't legal to use in any offical events. ::shrug::

Since you estimate we'll need a single quad at most, I'm ok with the price.

Are there any good N scaled tanks out there? Those on display at the train store are quite expensive...

Matchbox puts out several modern day tanks and military vehicles packs that are in the $15 range. I've seen several blogs where they re-paint very well. They also produce some cool stuff like the batman tumbler and hovering craft which look awesome repainted in military colors or with a few modifications. Really wide range of stuff to pick from but there are two scales when it comes to their stuff so you either have to eye ball it to make sure it's what you want, or be flexible and let scale be a bit less important.

There's a ton of 15mm companies, if you want to kill an afternoon check out the dropship horizon blog as they showcase tons of great sci fi stuff. Off the top of my head there's several companies to check out for sci vehicles & tanks

ground zero games

rebel minis

micropanzer

khurasan

 paulson games wrote:
If I can use the resin model pre-orders to fund the greater portion of the process then it'd allow me to launch a KS at a point where most everything is already in place and it virtually eliminates any chance of delays as all the bases are covered.

This is a wise plan. If the sculpts (or the majority of them) are ready/produced - that would make sense and speed up some of the process/time invested in production.

I suggest sticking with whatever causes less stress - I'd like to see this come to fruition - no matter how it goes.

V/r,

PTC