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If you want to be on the opponent's side, you should find some points for Hive Commander on the Tyrants. Nothing says "I'm in your space!" like a unit outflanking.

I dont own the codex but wouldnt trhis list be around 1850:

Flyrant- dual Dev
Flyrant- dual Dev
Zoanthrope
venomthrope
Crone
Crone
Crone
30 Terms
Tervigon
10 terms
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion

I figured it's about 1855 but hoping its a tad less if not switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores, probably better anyhow.

I would hate to face this list.

I actually had a lot fun (and effectiveness) out of
Flyrant, dual dev
Flyrant, BS/LW, ScyTal
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Tyrannofex, Adrenal, Regen
Dakkafexx2
Dakkafexx2

I almost had a tie against my nemesis (DE player) but I failed 7 out of 8 4+ saves on the last turn, and my Tyrannofex couldn't kill a single Haemonculous over 4 combat turns.

edit: 1500 points. 1850 I'll grab some more troops.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I dont own the codex but wouldnt trhis list be around 1850:

Flyrant- dual Dev
Flyrant- dual Dev
Zoanthrope
venomthrope
Crone
Crone
Crone
30 Terms
Tervigon
10 terms
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion

I figured it's about 1855 but hoping its a tad less if not switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores, probably better anyhow.

I would hate to face this list.

It's 1795, before the bastion. And with no additional upgrades.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I dont own the codex but wouldnt trhis list be around 1850:

Flyrant- dual Dev
Flyrant- dual Dev
Zoanthrope
venomthrope
Crone
Crone
Crone
30 Terms
Tervigon
10 terms
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion

I figured it's about 1855 but hoping its a tad less if not switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores, probably better anyhow.

I would hate to face this list.

It's 1795, before the bastion. And with no additional upgrades.

OK thats what I figured, and I loaned out my BRB to my brother but I figured the bastion was 60, but now I am thinking its 75 lol. So prolly switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores which I assume are 40ppm. Lol its funny making lists with no reference material and costs you've heard

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I actually had a lot fun (and effectiveness) out of
Flyrant, dual dev
Flyrant, BS/LW, ScyTal
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Tyrannofex, Adrenal, Regen
Dakkafexx2
Dakkafexx2

I almost had a tie against my nemesis (DE player) but I failed 7 out of 8 4+ saves on the last turn, and my Tyrannofex couldn't kill a single Haemonculous over 4 combat turns.

edit: 1500 points. 1850 I'll grab some more troops.

See warriors aren't as bad as people are saying. I mean when you consider a carnifex is 120 stock and can be killed by 4 AT weapons and 120 buys you 4 warriors which wi8ll dies to four AT weapons its not as awful as people make out. Yes they have a worse save and T but its also 12 wounds vs AI fire and they score and provide synapse. I am not saying they are awesome mind you, simply that for their cost they aren't really that awful. Anything that will chew them up will mulch 120 pts worth of troops in any other book too. Take that how you want.

Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.

I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.

Swapping out the Mawloc for Bios makes it 1775 before the Bastion.

 Niiai wrote:
Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.

I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.

You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Swapping out the Mawloc for Bios makes it 1775 before the Bastion.

Perfect then! I think that list has merit through forward pressure and target saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.

I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.

You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.

Exactly, small blasts should only grab one, large one as well if im not mistaken due to 40mm bases at full coherency centered on the model 2 when they slide it to the edge of the base. Using terrain this isn't that big an issue, even without cover thats not much worse then the carnifex.

People always act like their warriors are running around with their bases touching one another. If they are your playing so badly I doubt unit choice matters.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.

I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.

You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.

I'm thinking he means the big template (ala Marbo's satchel charge). Would easily hit 3 models, given it's a 2.5" radius and coherency is 2".

Edit: hm, hadn't taken 40mm base into consideration. Will test.

Edit 2:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Exactly, small blasts should only grab one, large one as well if im not mistaken due to 40mm bases at full coherency centered on the model 2 when they slide it to the edge of the base. Using terrain this isn't that big an issue, even without cover thats not much worse then the carnifex.

People always act like their warriors are running around with their bases touching one another. If they are your playing so badly I doubt unit choice matters.

When centered on 40mm model, the large blast hits only 1 model if all models are at maximum 2" coherency. Given, however, even a fraction of an inch under that 2" spacing and you easily hit 3 models, assuming that you can always have 2" coherency is just as foolish as assuming models are always bunched together. Neither requires insulting someone's ability to play the game.

 streamdragon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.

I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.

You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.

I'm thinking he means the big template (ala Marbo's satchel charge). Would easily hit 3 models, given it's a 2.5" radius and coherency is 2".

Edit: hm, hadn't taken 40mm base into consideration. Will test.

Unless you have your Warriors in a circle it'll only hit two. Want a picture?

rigeld2 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.

I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.

You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.

I'm thinking he means the big template (ala Marbo's satchel charge). Would easily hit 3 models, given it's a 2.5" radius and coherency is 2".

Edit: hm, hadn't taken 40mm base into consideration. Will test.

Unless you have your Warriors in a circle it'll only hit two. Want a picture?

See edit above. You are required to have a minimum of 3 warriors (starting, of course). Assuming no casualties already, even a fraction of an inch under the 2" maximum (say, to fit in cover) and you will hit 3 models.

I am not a fan of the bastion nor feel it is MUST TAKE. Those points can go towards more bugz which is more win.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am not a fan of the bastion nor feel it is MUST TAKE. Those points can go towards more bugz which is more win.

Indeed, though after creating your own bug bastion, you might think otherwise.

I've also made my own dead bug defense lines, skynest, and I'm working on the bugstorm redoubt right now.

Spoiler is the full size images.






So if you center the hole on one of the models it'll only hit one. If you get it offcenter you'll get 2. If you're not spaced properly you might hit 3, but proper spacing isn't just for hordes.

Or a fraction of a scatter.

The question is, once we all move past the vulnerability to str8 blast weapons, how good are warriors?

-Shooting?
-Assault?
-Provides Synapse
-Potential for MC mobile cover?
-9x T4 4+ wounds. Survivability?

For 100-120 points, you could have a great distraction unit. But then so are 24 hormagaunts or 20 gargs. Bah (I own warriors).

Razerous wrote:
Or a fraction of a scatter.

The question is, once we all move past the vulnerability to str8 blast weapons, how good are warriors?

-Shooting?
-Assault?
-Provides Synapse
-Potential for MC mobile cover?
-9x T4 4+ wounds. Survivability?

5 Warriors are almost exactly as durable as 10 Tac Marines for the same cost until you figure AP4 weapons into the mix...

Pros:
Provide Synapse
Are Fearless
Can now get flesh hooks

Cons:
Rending Claws no longer free
All the cons they had last edition, because they didn't change (except for Flesh hooks and rending claws, as above).

Really the big thing is that the Tervigon changes make Warriors a cheap source of Synapse that fills a Troop slot. Warriors didn't really get any better, they just got better in comparison.

I built a brood of 9 CC warriors with Rending Claws/Scything Talons. I think they look awesome. But they will most likely never actually see the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:

5 Warriors are almost exactly as durable as 10 Tac Marines for the same cost until you figure AP4 weapons into the mix...

AP4 being such an uncommon AP!

It's not just S8 blasts that Warriors have to worry about. Stuff like Lootas, Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons chew through Warriors far easier than Carnifexes.

Aren't warriors now on 50mm bases?

The warrior is like a lot of the tyranids units a little bit of both. It is mellee and shooting. Baring synapse there are better choises in the troop selection. Gaunt shoot better and are better in close combat for their points.

The argument for warrior is to load them up for melee (wich shrikes do better) or give them a bio cannon and start laying down templates. Also synapse.

Edit: You people also keep saying space out. For the tyranids this is dificult as they often have to deoploy further away from the enemy as you try to space everything out. The more points you play with the less your units meet the oponent at the same time.

Thanks rigeld. And it's not as if it is time consuming or hard to position them as such. I am really tired of all the talks as if every army has ranged ID large blasts. Lets be honest, we are only considering the riptide here, and in that match up those two extra seconds of measuring are obviously well worth it.

@steamdraon, didn't intend on being insulting. However it is my opinion that if you can't fathom the very basics of model placement and coherency in a competitive setting, then yes, you have much bigger issues then unit selection.

The last few posts illustrate that people don't understand how to play warriors before passing harsh judgements on them.

Agreed. They're not great for a frontline assault unit - and that's not what I use them for.

Backfield scoring/synapse for far cheaper than a Tervigon (which is what some people are promoting) and more survivable than a 2 zoeys in a less crowded slot.

Here is my problem with the new codex ... I really cannot win if the game ends turn six. I need it to end early. When I played the old codex I was actually gaining steam and tabling late thanks to biomancyand Tervigon/Gants synergy.Now this is done. Tervigons are still okay but not what they were and although the psychic powerws are good they are not biomancy toughness buffs which we need. I understand why people are building very aggressive lists. We need to do early damage and then hold on as the opponent will surely target all our synapse. It makes deployment and positioning much more sritical and it shoehorns us into afding units for synapse that are a bit more durable. I was having this conversation elsewhere after playing a few games (Nids are not my main army)

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p280-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations#bottom

I don't want to feel constricted into taking certain units. But it is very hard to ignore the need to reduce IB ...

 streamdragon wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

5 Warriors are almost exactly as durable as 10 Tac Marines for the same cost until you figure AP4 weapons into the mix...

AP4 being such an uncommon AP!

Indeed. On standard infantry troops, once we start to take all the AP4 into account on non-troops then you have to also get out of the vacuum with the bugs as well.

 Niiai wrote:
The warrior is like a lot of the tyranids units a little bit of both. It is mellee and shooting. Baring synapse there are better choises in the troop selection. Gaunt shoot better and are better in close combat for their points.

The argument for warrior is to load them up for melee (wich shrikes do better) or give them a bio cannon and start laying down templates. Also synapse.

A warrior is autonomous which is huge, and point for point more resilient then genestealers while being decent at shooting and having ever important synapse. A stalk warrior unit is better at shooting and assault then the equivalent gants stock.

Again 120 pts of warriors buys you 12 T4 4+ wounds. Its gets you 30 wounds of gants however they are t3 5+ wounds tat require a synapse tax. This is a hidden cost people fail to understand meaning they really are more pts then they seem. further more those 30 wounds are no more resilient to volume of fire then the 12. Sure they are better vs AT but they also contribute nothing until end of game. Furthermore their survival is no longer enough as again they require additional synapse models survival as well. So if you need a synapse model in range end of game anyway, why not take the ones that score and don't waste elite and HQ slots?

Not saying its the best or only way, but people really need to give them another go before writing them off.

Personally, I think termigants and tervogons are worthless in this edition. Warriors, genestealers and horms are much better. Horms can keep up with the flyrant synapse and are a cheap swarm that scores, Genes and warriors are your late game tickets and insurance.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Thanks rigeld. And it's not as if it is time consuming or hard to position them as such. I am really tired of all the talks as if every army has ranged ID large blasts. Lets be honest, we are only considering the riptide here, and in that match up those two extra seconds of measuring are obviously well worth it.

@steamdraon, didn't intend on being insulting. However it is my opinion that if you can't fathom the very basics of model placement and coherency in a competitive setting, then yes, you have much bigger issues then unit selection.

The last few posts illustrate that people don't understand how to play warriors before passing harsh judgements on them.

1. There are plenty of other S8+ large templates other than the Riptide. Battle Cannons (IG, CSM), Demolisher Cannons (SM, IG, CSM), Particle Whips (Necrons), etc. etc.

2. You talk about positioning like there is never a reason you should be less than 2". Getting into cover, moving between terrain or other units, heck, even someone Tank Shocking you are all fairly common situations that can force you closer than maximum coherency.

Also, if we're talking about the Riptide, you need to take into account that he's just going to 3 shot an MC, not template him.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Thanks rigeld. And it's not as if it is time consuming or hard to position them as such. I am really tired of all the talks as if every army has ranged ID large blasts. Lets be honest, we are only considering the riptide here, and in that match up those two extra seconds of measuring are obviously well worth it.

@steamdraon, didn't intend on being insulting. However it is my opinion that if you can't fathom the very basics of model placement and coherency in a competitive setting, then yes, you have much bigger issues then unit selection.

The last few posts illustrate that people don't understand how to play warriors before passing harsh judgements on them.

1. There are plenty of other S8+ large templates other than the Riptide. Battle Cannons (IG, CSM), Demolisher Cannons (SM, IG, CSM), Particle Whips (Necrons), etc. etc.

2. You talk about positioning like there is never a reason you should be less than 2". Getting into cover, moving between terrain or other units, heck, even someone Tank Shocking you are all fairly common situations that can force you closer than maximum coherency.

And this is when you start reaching for those straws I see.

1. Literally every platform that currently has a battle canon sucks this edition, full stop.

Sorry we are literally only considering the riptide in a competition environment with regard to s8 large blasts.

2. Yes I am. If your own units are getting in the way then your playing wrong. You don't know how to deploy, or you have no idea how to move your units. If impassible terrain is creating some sort of bottle neck then you probably have terrain to squat behind with your warriors so I still don't see your point.

I LOL'd at the tank shocking, if they are resorting to TS your warriors then you have no reason not to win that game. Or lose it depending on how that occurred.

And we just move into full ad hom mode. Fair enough.