Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.

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**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Is it just a random joke, or are you arguing that a long mustache is monk-like?

**AllSeeingSkink**

TheCustomLime wrote:
@Hyrbid

I disagree with the "White scars are mongols therefore Astartes aren't warrior monks in Space" counter argument. Correct me if I am wromg, but the White Scars live in a fortress monastery and each Astartes is a battle-brother. They may have mongol overtones but the Space Monk theme is still there.

That's my take on Space Marines. They're all Space Monks with variations, and it may not necessarily be the standard western image of a monk. Even Space Wolves, I'm pretty sure The Fang is described as a fortress monastery.

The main reason I don't want female Space Marines is because there's not currently female Space Marines, I think any attempt to shoehorn them in is going to be crap and I don't believe improving the gender diversity of Space Marines is going to make 40k more appealing to a larger audience vs adding more female models elsewhere. Even among the people who do want female Marines, I don't think there's much agreement on how it should be done; same aesthetic and just call them "sister" instead of "brother", having a more svelte aesthetic or the same basic aesthetic but females having long hair.

I think just leave Space Marines be and put the female effort in to other areas.

**SemperMortis**

Well as it stands in the US there are no females in the special forces, at least as operators, tons of support staff are females, hell you can have commanders who are females, but where the rubber hits the road you have a lot of swinging male appendages and not a single female in sight.

With that said we are relating real world concepts to a game that believes in magic. So....ANYWAY.

From a game perspective female SMs are fine if you want to make your own or find some 3rd party that makes bits, go for it. Don't expect GW to do a female SM release though because as I have said before you already have an entire female army, SoB who wear the same armor, have the same guns (needs a codex update to get the new toys), have the same faction for all intents and purposes and have access to regular Marines as allies. So why dear god would you want them to go "Ohh and so and so primarch was actually a transgender, bisexual who identified as an attack helicopter, and all his/her/its minions were female SMs".

**Azreal13**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Is it just a random joke, or are you arguing that a long mustache is monk-like?

Why not both?

Pai Mei was a monk and a martial arts badass, more than that he was an homage/parody of all those ancient warrior monk masters from the old movies Tarantino likes so much.

So yes, top knots, long mustaches etc are monk like, you just have to expand on your idea of what monks look like.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to further reinforce the point..

Wikipedia wrote:A warrior monk is a concept found in various cultures of a person who combines aspects of being a monk, such as deep religious devotion and an ascetic lifestyle, with being a warrior, trained to engage in violent conflict.

Examples include:

Sōhei, a type of Japanese warrior.
Knights Templar, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, warriors during the Crusades.
Shaolin Monastery, a Chinese monastery renowned for monks who were experts in the martial arts.
The description of the ideal soldier in the manual of the First Earth Battalion.
Nagas, a type of shaivite monks once served under Moghul commanders.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

SemperMortis wrote:
Don't expect GW to do a female SM release though because as I have said before you already have an entire female army, SoB who wear the same armor, have the same guns (needs a codex update to get the new toys), have the same faction for all intents and purposes and have access to regular Marines as allies.

Even if Sisters were an entirely female army (they are not, as explained above in this thread), or even an entire army (at this point, I don't think they qualify for this anymore…), even if they did wear the same armor (they don't) or had the same guns (they don't, they only have a tiny, tiny subset of the guns the marines have), one female army would not counterbalance 7 male armies.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The main reason I don't want female Space Marines is because there's not currently female Space Marines, I think any attempt to shoehorn them in is going to be crap

“Shoehorn” them in like they shoehorned the various new flyers, the centurion, the grav weapons, the frost weapons and all that. It's just that easy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azreal13 wrote:
So yes, top knots, long mustaches etc are monk like, you just have to expand on your idea of what monks look like.

What about you expand it to the point where it does include women too then, if we are about to expand it?
(Where did you get that Pai Mei was a monk?)

**Azreal13**

No, because female monks are called nuns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The stereotypical ancient martial arts master is invariably a monk, as most of the martial arts originated in monasteries.

Although why don't we dispense with male and female altogether and have one gender called Philip and just call it done?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Azreal13 wrote:
Just to further reinforce the point..

Wikipedia wrote:A warrior monk is a concept found in various cultures of a person who combines aspects of being a monk, such as deep religious devotion and an ascetic lifestyle, with being a warrior, trained to engage in violent conflict.

Examples include:

Sōhei, a type of Japanese warrior.
Knights Templar, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, warriors during the Crusades.
Shaolin Monastery, a Chinese monastery renowned for monks who were experts in the martial arts.
The description of the ideal soldier in the manual of the First Earth Battalion.
Nagas, a type of shaivite monks once served under Moghul commanders.

Do you know what is funny about those? It's that none of them had long mustache as a characteristic.

Azreal13 wrote:
No, because female monks are called nuns.

And… so… what's your point here? That monks and nuns should be separated? But that having explicitly shamanistic monks is perfectly fine?

Azreal13 wrote:
The stereotypical ancient martial arts master is invariably a monk, as most of the martial arts originated in monasteries.

That's not the question I asked. Is Mai Pei a monk? Are long mustache characteristic of ANY kind of monks that you could name? How does the White Scar mustaches visually links him to being a monk rather than being a Mongol? Are you arguing in good faith that the mustache is to link him to the concept of a monk rather than to the concept of mongols?

**Azreal13**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Just to further reinforce the point..

Wikipedia wrote:A warrior monk is a concept found in various cultures of a person who combines aspects of being a monk, such as deep religious devotion and an ascetic lifestyle, with being a warrior, trained to engage in violent conflict.

Examples include:

Sōhei, a type of Japanese warrior.
Knights Templar, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, warriors during the Crusades.
Shaolin Monastery, a Chinese monastery renowned for monks who were experts in the martial arts.
The description of the ideal soldier in the manual of the First Earth Battalion.
Nagas, a type of shaivite monks once served under Moghul commanders.

Do you know what is funny about those? It's that none of them had long mustache as a characteristic.

So? That wasn't my point. The point was that "warrior monk" can reference a vast variety of different cultures and aren't mutually exclusive to other traits such as physical appearance.

Azreal13 wrote:
No, because female monks are called nuns.

And… so… what's your point here? That monks and nuns should be separated? But that having explicitly shamanistic monks is perfectly fine?

My point is we already have a word for a female monk, and that's a nun. We already have female monks, they're called something different, but they exist, so it's impossible to expand "monk" to include women, when women can already become de facto monks. Hence my comment about one gender called Phillip, unless you're campaigning for all things to be called the same regardless of gender involvement, in which case then I guess we can dispense with one or the other.

Azreal13 wrote:
The stereotypical ancient martial arts master is invariably a monk, as most of the martial arts originated in monasteries.

That's not the question I asked. Is Mai Pei a monk?

I'll ask him next time I see him.

**SemperMortis**

Even if Sisters were an entirely female army (they are not, as explained above in this thread), or even an entire army (at this point, I don't think they qualify for this anymore…), even if they did wear the same armor (they don't) or had the same guns (they don't, they only have a tiny, tiny subset of the guns the marines have), one female army would not counterbalance 7 male armies.

I apologize, I was not aware that those stupid men have infiltrated our feminist army. (Thats sarcasm btw)

They are in fact an entire army, a heavily outdated army, but still an entire army. They have a 3+ save that looks remarkably like Power armor, if its called "SoB Durka armor" I don't care its still a 3+ and your arguing over semantics. They have the same guns as Space Marines, except the new toys AS I MENTIONED ALREADY!. Yeah they need access to the new toyz but they still use bolters, bolt pistols, heavy bolters, flamers, heavy flamers, Meltas, Plasma Guns, Multi-Meltas, Storm Bolters, hell they even have rhinos. Funny how you think that is a "tiny, tiny Subset".

And why do we need equal numbers of Female and male armies? Who cares really? And if you really want to get technical about it, again going to real world, the US military is open to both genders and guess what? About 83% of the military is MALE and only about 16% is female. And the US is probably the most progressive in regards to gender, the UK has only 10% females, so technically by that number we are over representing females in Warhammer 40k. it should be 9 to 1 not 7 to 1.

**Gen.Steiner**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:
IThey may be the poster boys (fnar) of the setting, but if they are the only all-male faction (and the Sisters of Battle are the only all-female faction), you then have fantastic analogues for monks and nuns - which, in fact, is what they are: warrior-monks and warrior-nuns.

Except that it totally not true. The White Scars are NOT warrior-monks. They are space mongols. The Charcarodons are NOT warrior-monks. They are canon Angry Marines. The Space Wolves are NOT warrior-monks. They are werewolves vikings with extra wolf fetish.
Do you know who is warrior-monks? The Dark Angels are warrior-monks. They wear robes and all, they have land speeder that looks like small cathedrals, they have names that sounds very biblical, …
Space Marines, as I already mentioned many times, are a blank canvas to be painted to whatever flavor you want for that specific chapter. Now just allow that flavor to include female warriors, like it should have from the beginning.

All Space Marines, regardless of Chapter, live monastic lives that are highly regimented, include hefty amounts of prayer or meditation, and belong to cult brotherhoods. They're all monks. Just like the Sisters are all nuns.

I mean, the example daily routine of a Space Marine includes three hours of prayer, and 15 minutes of optional free time... for Marines to make their own individual observances to the Emperor or to the Chapter Cult.

It is entirely possible to have a highly diverse and inclusive set of models to support a varied and diverse set of armies and factions, both human and alien, without having female Space Marines or male Sisters of Battle.

EDIT: A thought. Is it not possible that the process of becoming a Space Marine is in fact some form of gender reassignment anyway? The amount of testosterone and various other chemicals that swill around inside a Space Marine's post-human body could well take a pre-pubescent girl and prevent them from ever becoming a woman; in which case the only difference would be in external genitalia and the presence of atrophied womb and ovaries. So a Space Marine Chapter could happily recruit girls in the same way as they recruit boys, and in both cases they stop being human and become Astartes.

**Pouncey**

Gen.Steiner wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:
IThey may be the poster boys (fnar) of the setting, but if they are the only all-male faction (and the Sisters of Battle are the only all-female faction), you then have fantastic analogues for monks and nuns - which, in fact, is what they are: warrior-monks and warrior-nuns.

Except that it totally not true. The White Scars are NOT warrior-monks. They are space mongols. The Charcarodons are NOT warrior-monks. They are canon Angry Marines. The Space Wolves are NOT warrior-monks. They are werewolves vikings with extra wolf fetish.
Do you know who is warrior-monks? The Dark Angels are warrior-monks. They wear robes and all, they have land speeder that looks like small cathedrals, they have names that sounds very biblical, …
Space Marines, as I already mentioned many times, are a blank canvas to be painted to whatever flavor you want for that specific chapter. Now just allow that flavor to include female warriors, like it should have from the beginning.

All Space Marines, regardless of Chapter, live monastic lives that are highly regimented, include hefty amounts of prayer or meditation, and belong to cult brotherhoods. They're all monks. Just like the Sisters are all nuns.

I mean, the example daily routine of a Space Marine includes three hours of prayer, and 15 minutes of optional free time... for Marines to make their own individual observances to the Emperor or to the Chapter Cult.

It is entirely possible to have a highly diverse and inclusive set of models to support a varied and diverse set of armies and factions, both human and alien, without having female Space Marines or male Sisters of Battle.

EDIT: A thought. Is it not possible that the process of becoming a Space Marine is in fact some form of gender reassignment anyway? The amount of testosterone and various other chemicals that swill around inside a Space Marine's post-human body could well take a pre-pubescent girl and prevent them from ever becoming a woman; in which case the only difference would be in external genitalia and the presence of atrophied womb and ovaries. So a Space Marine Chapter could happily recruit girls in the same way as they recruit boys, and in both cases they stop being human and become Astartes.

Regarding the Space Marine rituals, I don't know whether that's a lot of time or not. First I'd need to know how long an average day is for a Space Marine. They're spread across a thousand different planets and some don't even have a planet, so we can't just assume 24 hours is a normal length of day for them.

That said, yes, it's possible that women are recruited to Space Marine chapters and end up becoming indistinguishable from men unless you go looking at their DNA. It's also possible they remove all sex organs entirely because Space Marines don't reproduce in that way and don't have sex being a thing they have to worry about at all. I don't think it's ever been mentioned that that's the case, but it is certainly possible.

**Insectum7**

SemperMortis wrote:
Funny how you think that is a "tiny, tiny Subset".

Shared:
Rhino
Bolter
Power Armor
Plasma
Flamer
Melta

Not Shared, Sisters:
Immolator
Excorcist
Penitent Engine

Not Shared, Marine (Generic):
Predator
Whirlwind
Vindicator
Razorback
LandRaider, LR Crusader, LR Redeemer
Storm Talon
Storm Raven
Drop Pods
Land Speeders
Bikes
Centurion Armor
Terminator Armor
Lascannons
Missile Launchers
Grav
Dreadnought, Venerable Dreadnought, Ironclad
Thunderfire Cannon
"Some" more squad types

Note that this does not include any of the FW Imperial Armor units.

SemperMortis wrote:
Who cares really?

It should be obvious?

**Gen.Steiner**

Pouncey wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:

I mean, the example daily routine of a Space Marine includes three hours of prayer, and 15 minutes of optional free time... for Marines to make their own individual observances to the Emperor or to the Chapter Cult.

It is entirely possible to have a highly diverse and inclusive set of models to support a varied and diverse set of armies and factions, both human and alien, without having female Space Marines or male Sisters of Battle.

EDIT: A thought. Is it not possible that the process of becoming a Space Marine is in fact some form of gender reassignment anyway? The amount of testosterone and various other chemicals that swill around inside a Space Marine's post-human body could well take a pre-pubescent girl and prevent them from ever becoming a woman; in which case the only difference would be in external genitalia and the presence of atrophied womb and ovaries. So a Space Marine Chapter could happily recruit girls in the same way as they recruit boys, and in both cases they stop being human and become Astartes.

Regarding the Space Marine rituals, I don't know whether that's a lot of time or not. First I'd need to know how long an average day is for a Space Marine. They're spread across a thousand different planets and some don't even have a planet, so we can't just assume 24 hours is a normal length of day for them.

That said, yes, it's possible that women are recruited to Space Marine chapters and end up becoming indistinguishable from men unless you go looking at their DNA. It's also possible they remove all sex organs entirely because Space Marines don't reproduce in that way and don't have sex being a thing they have to worry about at all. I don't think it's ever been mentioned that that's the case, but it is certainly possible.

Well, the linked Lexicanum entry is taken from the 3rd Edition Codex: Space Marines (pg 19), so I think it's pretty canon that they use a standard 24 hour day - it fits, too, because, you know, Holy Terra and all that. A bit like modern Zulu Time too, because if this week you're fighting on a night world that has a two-hundred-hour day, and next week you're on a world that has a six-hour-day... well... standardised military time to the rescue!

I don't think they remove sexual organs, but they certainly cease to function as sexual organs - Space Marines don't have a sex drive (not even Noise Marines or Emperor's Children have sex drives).

**Insectum7**

Gen.Steiner wrote:

EDIT: A thought. Is it not possible that the process of becoming a Space Marine is in fact some form of gender reassignment anyway? The amount of testosterone and various other chemicals that swill around inside a Space Marine's post-human body could well take a pre-pubescent girl and prevent them from ever becoming a woman; in which case the only difference would be in external genitalia and the presence of atrophied womb and ovaries. So a Space Marine Chapter could happily recruit girls in the same way as they recruit boys, and in both cases they stop being human and become Astartes.

IMO, that's actually the most realistic way to think about it. That's not how it's treated in the fiction, but it's the sort of interpretation that rings true because of how clinical the transformation into an Astartes actually is.

**Gen.Steiner**

Insectum7 wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:

EDIT: A thought. Is it not possible that the process of becoming a Space Marine is in fact some form of gender reassignment anyway? The amount of testosterone and various other chemicals that swill around inside a Space Marine's post-human body could well take a pre-pubescent girl and prevent them from ever becoming a woman; in which case the only difference would be in external genitalia and the presence of atrophied womb and ovaries. So a Space Marine Chapter could happily recruit girls in the same way as they recruit boys, and in both cases they stop being human and become Astartes.

IMO, that's actually the most realistic way to think about it. That's not how it's treated in the fiction, but it's the sort of interpretation that rings true because of how clinical the transformation into an Astartes actually is.

Headcanon... ACCEPTED

**Pouncey**

Gen.Steiner wrote:
Well, the linked Lexicanum entry is taken from the 3rd Edition Codex: Space Marines (pg 19), so I think it's pretty canon that they use a standard 24 hour day - it fits, too, because, you know, Holy Terra and all that. A bit like modern Zulu Time too, because if this week you're fighting on a night world that has a two-hundred-hour day, and next week you're on a world that has a six-hour-day... well... standardised military time to the rescue!

Well then, problem solved.

I don't think they remove sexual organs, but they certainly cease to function as sexual organs - Space Marines don't have a sex drive (not even Noise Marines or Emperor's Children have sex drives).

Basically the same thing for these purposes, I guess.

I mean, I don't think there's been much canon artwork of naked Space Marines from the front. And it's not like you need to have functioning male equipment to sexually violate people like the Noise Marines and Emperor's Children have been known to. And since that kind of thing has never been about sex anyways, just because they rape people in their planetary conquests doesn't mean they need a functioning sex drive or functioning organs.

**Insectum7**

Gen.Steiner wrote:

Headcanon... ACCEPTED

Totally. I always liked the idea that individual marines are physically monstrous in person. Distended and strange looking "heavy" humans. Monstrous man or monstrous woman, all the same to me, honestly. They are in effect, a different race.

**Pouncey**

Insectum7 wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:

Headcanon... ACCEPTED

Totally. I always liked the idea that individual marines are physically monstrous in person. Distended and strange looking "heavy" humans. Monstrous man or monstrous woman, all the same to me, honestly. They are in effect, a different race.

Since they're essentially the descendants of the Emperor's genetically-engineered kids, that'd explain a lot.

As I recall, the Emperor's attempts to reproduce in a more natural human way resulted in the deaths of a few women before he gave up on the idea. The word "exploded" came up in the description.

Though there was also some lore about how some of those women survived and actually gave birth to superhuman beings who, some millennia later, were hunted into extinction or simply chose to hide forever by Imperials who considered their claims of being descendants of the Emperor to be blasphemy.

**Selym**

Insectum7 wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:

Headcanon... ACCEPTED

Totally. I always liked the idea that individual marines are physically monstrous in person. Distended and strange looking "heavy" humans. Monstrous man or monstrous woman, all the same to me, honestly. They are in effect, a different race.

Sphess Mehreens! Todeh... Erm... Ew.

Spoiler:

**Pouncey**

Selym wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:

Headcanon... ACCEPTED

Totally. I always liked the idea that individual marines are physically monstrous in person. Distended and strange looking "heavy" humans. Monstrous man or monstrous woman, all the same to me, honestly. They are in effect, a different race.

Sphess Mehreens! Todeh... Erm... Ew.

Spoiler:

Well, at least that explains how they fit all the extra organs inside them.

**Plumbumbarum**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Great riddance, I hate sexist donkey-caves as well. For the sake of balance, let's also get rid of other extremes like feminism.

Are you saying “Okay, now that we got rid of those very sexist people, let's get rid of those very anti-sexist people, so that we can enjoy a community with just the exact right amount of sexism I am comfortable with”? That's definitely how you sound.
Since we are purging the extreme, I suggest we get rid of extremely TFG people AND extremely fair-play people too. Extreme are always bad, ain't they?

No, I'm not saying that, at all. I also don't want to get rid of anyone. I see that you're still into catching words and quoting them as out of context as possible but I also see now that you read them out of context as well.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Code wrote: I think, there are plenty of problems with that approach to fiction.

1) If you take it seriously, then every fictional work ever has to follow this rule. That means, if I create a fictional setting, no matter how far away into the future or how far away into the past, no matter how fundamentally different it is from our world, it HAS to represent 21st century US demographics. This idea alone is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

2) I'm not even sure, what the problem is.

You say, some people might not be comfortable to escape to a place with a single race and gender imbalace. So apparently they are still confortable escaping to a place, where human life has absolutely no worth and is thrown away by the millions just to have minor military victories. Where there is exactly one religion and if you don't follow it, you're going to get killed. Where people are hoarded to planet earth like animals, so the one true ruler of mankind can consume their souls... but gender imbalance really is a deal breaker!
Doesn't make sense to me.

Others have said, there should be people that look like you, so everyone feels represented. The thing is, there is nobody in 40k that looks like me! I'm 5 ft 7, 155 lbs and wear glasses. Who exactly looks like me. You pick ONE external characteristic, skin color, ignore everything else and then make representation about this one thing. That's arbitrary.

3) Building on the last point: It's a slippery slope. You want black people represented in 40k, fine. But now obviously you need hispanic, asian and arabic people as well, so you put in those. Now you've got all the big ethnicities covered, but what about the smaller ones? What about the native americans and polynesians, that don't feel represented? Ok, so we put in every possible ethnicity, that exist today and we're done right?
But what about the disabled people? Shouldn't they be represented as well? What about transgender people? And gay people? What about people with autism? What about Little People? What about amputees?
So we are not done, until we have a gay 4 ft 5 transgender autistic Space Marine, that may or may not have native alaskan heritage...

4) To me this approach to fiction KILLS immersion. And I'm convinced, that most people of the affected groups feel the same way. When you see this happening (and most of the time it's blatantly obvious) you're starting to think of real-world politics and stop thinking about the world you're trying to experience, which kills the fun.

This is one of the worst problem of "everything is political". TV shows are political, books are political, music is political, movies are political and 40k is political. Ironically the people suffering the most from this, are the ones trying to push this agenda. Can they even enjoy ANY media anymore? How can you enjoy something, when all you're thinking about is "Let's see how well everyone is represented in this"? How can you get lost in a work of fiction, when all you do, is trying to judge how well this supports your political goals?

In short: Keep politics where they belong! There are more than enough real-world issues in need of solving, where your commitment to social justice is well placed and productive (Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, etc.) But if you're taking your politics to places, that are supposed to be a fun escape from the real world, and taking them back into the real world in the process, all you're doing is alienating people and hurting your cause. (especially as it might not even be a problem, see point 2

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
1) Nope. But if there is already a huge imbalance in which some demographics are routinely underrepresented, don't you think it would be a good idea to go the other way for once, and over-represent them? Oups, sorry, you are not interested in that kind of deviation from 21st century US demographics, you are only interested in the one that is all white men…

You ofc don't know gak about what I'm interested in so stop claiming you do.

In fact I would prefer the Imperium to be all black people than this forced, target audience and demographics data driven bs of female space marines and mixed races chapters.

(don't forget to quite this out of context, ie "BS of mixed races? BS?? Are you saying that only white people are worthy?")

What imbalance are you talking about? I struggle to remember playing a quasi medieval rpg on pc last few years where half of the town guard wasn't females. Almost every show concentrates on women struggles and discrimination. Most SF movies show future of a racialy mixed society with gender equality, or strong women etc and very USA in space actualy.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
2) I am going with a total lack of empathy as the reason for why ONE external characteristic is emphasized over the other. It's because… well it's the one that gets you considered in majorly different ways irl while you have no control over it. Also explains about the escapism. It's way, way easier to escape to a place that don't mirror some actual problems you have to deal with IRL. That's also why rape victims don't usually like rape stories. Very basic amount of empathy would make that crystal-clear.

So, you would censor all rape out of the art? What about car crashes? Beatings? War? Death? Cancer? Abductions? Anything traumatic really?

I have much too much empathy, believe me but for sure 40k doesn't trigger it.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
4) Unsurprisingly, when fiction mirror problems you (and the poster) have to “deal” with IRL, it kills their immersion. Suddenly, they get it! But when other people find that fiction mirror problems they have to deal with IRL (and I am using no quotation mark this time for a reason!), suddenly they should grow a thicker skin or something.

BS. My grandfather was in the soviet camp, soviets occupied my country and driven it into poverty but I'm not crying and making threads for GW to remove commissairs shown as cool heroes because they offend me, despite the fact that it was probably much better to be a discriminated woman than a Polish man in the NKVD torture chamber or just shot in the back of the head and thrown to the ditch. 40k actualy insults religion but I'm not crying about it either.

But no it's just about women now, a silly over-reaction and sort of easy to follow intelectual fashion.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Also lol at the idea that something that includes obvious political satire, and a whole freaking lot of it, is not political. Sure, the long description of the byzantine Administratum, or the Ecclesiarchy and its rise to power, and all that, definitely not politics! What, those obvious metaphors about racism using mutants as the discriminated class, even when perfectly free of any chaotic taint? That's not political at all!

Sure it is political, which doesn't mean you have to constantly over-analyse and demand changes for every bit that offends your sensibilities. If everyone did that, there would be no 40k because it's offensive all around.

Not to mention it was a satire in Rogue Trader era, now it's all serious and creation of mood because of it's commercial success. Nothing to fight for here and lol at the idea of female space marines.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Gen.Steiner wrote:
IThey may be the poster boys (fnar) of the setting, but if they are the only all-male faction (and the Sisters of Battle are the only all-female faction), you then have fantastic analogues for monks and nuns - which, in fact, is what they are: warrior-monks and warrior-nuns.

Except that it totally not true. The White Scars are NOT warrior-monks. They are space mongols. The Charcarodons are NOT warrior-monks. They are canon Angry Marines. The Space Wolves are NOT warrior-monks. They are werewolves vikings with extra wolf fetish.
Do you know who is warrior-monks? The Dark Angels are warrior-monks. They wear robes and all, they have land speeder that looks like small cathedrals, they have names that sounds very biblical, …
Space Marines, as I already mentioned many times, are a blank canvas to be painted to whatever flavor you want for that specific chapter. Now just allow that flavor to include female warriors, like it should have from the beginning.

No they're not just canvas. They all follow and believe in the emperor of mankind, they are all male, all warrior monks. The basic idea is warrior monk, then comes the flavour that in some cases takes it further from that reference but it's 40k and not entirely coherent heh, still warrior monks though.

**Pouncey**

So, you would censor all rape out of the art? What about car crashes? Beatings? War? Death? Cancer? Abductions? Anything traumatic really?

I have much too much empathy, believe me but for sure 40k doesn't trigger it.

Done right, a cancer story can actually be a positive thing for a game's story. Just look at the Crusader Bridenbrad questline in WoW.

Rape's one of those things that affects most humans more strongly than a lot of other things. Both men and women.

I'm a guy, and at the time I'd never known anyone who was raped. But when I found out that, in Warcraft lore, the Orcs who sacked Shattrath had raped the Draenei Priestesses, dragged them to the edge of the cliff, then cut their throats and threw them off, I... well, let's just say I didn't stop killing Orc NPCs until every single one I could think of finding in the game was dead. And then a few months later I made the Orcs my first Nemesis enemy (Nemesis referring to a thing where you earn a title by killing 500 of a particular species in PvP).

BS. My grandfather was in the soviet camp, soviets occupied my country and driven it into poverty but I'm not crying and making threads for GW to remove commissairs shown as cool heroes because they offend me, despite the fact that it was probably much better to be a discriminated woman than a Polish man in the NKVD torture chamber or just shot in the back of the head and thrown to the ditch. 40k actualy insults religion but I'm not crying about it either.

But no it's just about women now, a silly over-reaction and sort of easy to follow intelectual fashion.

I dunno what 40k lore you've been reading, but IG Commissars are generally portrayed as the opposite of heroes. And Yarrick is only viewed as a hero because of his skill in defeating Orks with command strategy, not because of his Commissar stuff.

**Selym**

Hard to be a hero when the men have to fear you more than a 15 foot tall alien monstrosity.

**Plumbumbarum**

Pouncey wrote:
So, you would censor all rape out of the art? What about car crashes? Beatings? War? Death? Cancer? Abductions? Anything traumatic really?

I have much too much empathy, believe me but for sure 40k doesn't trigger it.

Done right, a cancer story can actually be a positive thing for a game's story. Just look at the Crusader Bridenbrad questline in WoW.

Rape's one of those things that affects most humans more strongly than a lot of other things. Both men and women.

I'm a guy, and at the time I'd never known anyone who was raped. But when I found out that, in Warcraft lore, the Orcs who sacked Shattrath had raped the Draenei Priestesses, dragged them to the edge of the cliff, then cut their throats and threw them off, I... well, let's just say I didn't stop killing Orc NPCs until every single one I could think of finding in the game was dead. And then a few months later I made the Orcs my first Nemesis enemy (Nemesis referring to a thing where you earn a title by killing 500 of a particular species in PvP).

BS. My grandfather was in the soviet camp, soviets occupied my country and driven it into poverty but I'm not crying and making threads for GW to remove commissairs shown as cool heroes because they offend me, despite the fact that it was probably much better to be a discriminated woman than a Polish man in the NKVD torture chamber or just shot in the back of the head and thrown to the ditch. 40k actualy insults religion but I'm not crying about it either.

But no it's just about women now, a silly over-reaction and sort of easy to follow intelectual fashion.

I dunno what 40k lore you've been reading, but IG Commissars are generally portrayed as the opposite of heroes. And Yarrick is only viewed as a hero because of his skill in defeating Orks with command strategy, not because of his Commissar stuff.

I know a rape victim, where the perpetrator was walking around and making her a whore, he admitted later that its her version that is correct. One of the things I noticed is that she didn't want to be treated like a victim and patronised. Anecdotal though ofc.

As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

**Pouncey**

Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

I don't think Commissars are cool. I avoid taking them in my IG armies wherever possible because I think they're awful, and it's not for gameplay reasons.

And the "representarians" generally point out that while women are equals in the lore, there have only been a handful of female IG models. That's where that sentiment comes from. Not the lore. The official models that are actually produced.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Pouncey wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

I don't think Commissars are cool. I avoid taking them in my IG armies wherever possible because I think they're awful, and it's not for gameplay reasons.

And the "representarians" generally point out that while women are equals in the lore, there have only been a handful of female IG models. That's where that sentiment comes from. Not the lore. The official models that are actually produced.

So if the lore's not a problem, why are people asking for female Space Marines?

I'd love for more female representation in 40k, be it through female cultists, xenos (where appropriate - Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons biologically don't count) and humans. Add in more special characters, revamp the Sisters.

Regarding the point made that Sisters are inferior to men because they have less stuff than Space Marines, do please consider that Sisters have more than the Scions do. And whilst they could and should have far more in their range, Scions do have less.
It's less a case of men>women, but more Space Marines>everyone else.

**Pouncey**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

I don't think Commissars are cool. I avoid taking them in my IG armies wherever possible because I think they're awful, and it's not for gameplay reasons.

And the "representarians" generally point out that while women are equals in the lore, there have only been a handful of female IG models. That's where that sentiment comes from. Not the lore. The official models that are actually produced.

So if the lore's not a problem, why are people asking for female Space Marines?

I dunno. I've been away from Dakka for a couple of days. When I left, everyone was all like, "Marines can be all male, and that's fine."

I'd love for more female representation in 40k, be it through female cultists, xenos (where appropriate - Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons biologically don't count) and humans. Add in more special characters, revamp the Sisters.

Sounds good, though aren't Tyranids mostly female to begin with? Isn't that why so many of the different types of creatures have female-gendered names like harpies and harridans?

Regarding the point made that Sisters are inferior to men because they have less stuff than Space Marines, do please consider that Sisters have more than the Scions do. And whilst they could and should have far more in their range, Scions do have less.
It's less a case of men>women, but more Space Marines>everyone else.

Are the Scions actually male-only in their lore? I haven't read up much on them but I thought they were in the same situation as IG, where they can easily be female in the lore but have no female models. I'll readily admit I could very easily be wrong about that.

**Plumbumbarum**

Pouncey wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

I don't think Commissars are cool. I avoid taking them in my IG armies wherever possible because I think they're awful, and it's not for gameplay reasons.

And the "representarians" generally point out that while women are equals in the lore, there have only been a handful of female IG models. That's where that sentiment comes from. Not the lore. The official models that are actually produced.

I know for a fact that some of the resident feminist do field them. Should I enter a full armchair psychologist now and analyse it, "why would they escape to a place where their beloved army is led by a war criminal, murderer and a fanatic, do they dream of executing someone" etc like the representarians do over everyone not waning female sm or diverse chapters. If I am a mysogyn for not wanting female SM then all people who like commissairs are psychopaths, how about that for a cheap discussion techniques ping pong match.

If you treat FFG as lore, the number of female models is in line with it:

Dark Heresy Rulebook wrote:"The wartorn 41st millenium is not always an encouraging place to be for a female. Few get the opportunities of their male counterparts, but by the same token they do not get exposed to the danger out there in the wilder parts of the galaxy. Certain Imperial Guard regiments recruit females to fight alongside men; the Eclessiarchy and the Inquisition likewise employ females at all ranks, but again their number is not in proportion to men

**Pouncey**

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

I don't think Commissars are cool. I avoid taking them in my IG armies wherever possible because I think they're awful, and it's not for gameplay reasons.

And the "representarians" generally point out that while women are equals in the lore, there have only been a handful of female IG models. That's where that sentiment comes from. Not the lore. The official models that are actually produced.

I know for a fact that some of the resident feminist do field them. Should I enter a full armchair psychologist now and analyse it, "why would they escape to a place where their beloved army is led by a war criminal, murderer and a fanatic, do they dream of executing someone" etc like the representarians do over everyone not waning female sm or diverse chapters. If I am a mysogyn for not wanting female SM then all people who like commissairs are psychopaths, how about that for a cheap discussion techniques ping pong match.

If you treat FFG as lore, the number of female models is in line with it:

Dark Heresy Rulebook wrote:"The wartorn 41st millenium is not always an encouraging place to be for a female. Few get the opportunities of their male counterparts, but by the same token they do not get exposed to the danger out there in the wilder parts of the galaxy. Certain Imperial Guard regiments recruit females to fight alongside men; the Eclessiarchy and the Inquisition likewise employ females at all ranks, but again their number is not in proportion to men

Personally I'd be willing to leave it at, "I prefer the look of female miniatures to male ones, hence I'd like for official female IG to be available in enough numbers to make an army out of."

But that's just me, I guess.

**Plumbumbarum**

Pouncey wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for commissars, yes everyone thinks they are cool. Nowhere in the fiction is it stated that women are inferior or unworthy of command but it still doesn't stop the representarians gang to claim inherent mizogyny, discrimination etc.

I don't think Commissars are cool. I avoid taking them in my IG armies wherever possible because I think they're awful, and it's not for gameplay reasons.

And the "representarians" generally point out that while women are equals in the lore, there have only been a handful of female IG models. That's where that sentiment comes from. Not the lore. The official models that are actually produced.

I know for a fact that some of the resident feminist do field them. Should I enter a full armchair psychologist now and analyse it, "why would they escape to a place where their beloved army is led by a war criminal, murderer and a fanatic, do they dream of executing someone" etc like the representarians do over everyone not waning female sm or diverse chapters. If I am a mysogyn for not wanting female SM then all people who like commissairs are psychopaths, how about that for a cheap discussion techniques ping pong match.

If you treat FFG as lore, the number of female models is in line with it:

Dark Heresy Rulebook wrote:"The wartorn 41st millenium is not always an encouraging place to be for a female. Few get the opportunities of their male counterparts, but by the same token they do not get exposed to the danger out there in the wilder parts of the galaxy. Certain Imperial Guard regiments recruit females to fight alongside men; the Eclessiarchy and the Inquisition likewise employ females at all ranks, but again their number is not in proportion to men

Personally I'd be willing to leave it at, "I prefer the look of female miniatures to male ones, hence I'd like for official female IG to be available in enough numbers to make an army out of."

But that's just me, I guess.

I have nothing against a female guard box or an upgrade sprue with heads, why not. Don't think it will happen, why not ask mr. Roundtree though, they seem to listen now.