Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.

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**Manchu**

Melissia wrote:
And yet there's been far more male special characters for Sisters of Battle than female ones.

I thought we covered this - none of the male SCs in question are SoBs. The SoB fit into the the larger constellation of the Ecclesiarchy, which is represented by male characters. The "more male than female SCs" issue is really a red herring; follow that path and all you come to is a discussion about whether Sisters should be in an Ecclesiarchy book/be supplemented by Ecclesiarchy units and SCs.

**Desubot**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Similarly, I think the all-female nature of the SoB is a fundamental element of that faction.

And yet there's been far more male special characters for Sisters of Battle than female ones.

And thats a complete shame.

honestly.

Agreed. I wish GW would make a seperate Forces of the Ecclesiarchy dex and make the SoB codex full of just... SoB.

ehhhhhhh maybe.

IT might do well to make the church a mini dex like inquisition. and a full SOB codex would be cool

im waiting for female ogryns in super power armor

**Manchu**

TheCustomLime wrote:
I wish GW would make a seperate Forces of the Ecclesiarchy dex and make the SoB codex full of just... SoB.

Here again we see how variety and diversity can be different goals. A codex that incorporates the Ecclesiarchy (it certainly does not merit its own dex in a wargame) undoubtedly portrays the 40k setting in a richer, more varied way than a Sisters-only dex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
IT might do well to make the church a mini dex like inquisition.

Sounds like a rip off, which if anything makes it more likely. The truth is, 40k is a wargame. Aside from the SoB, the Ecclesiarchy hasn't got much to offer a wargame outside of SCs. Unless the dex you had in mind has a single non-SC entry lol.

**TheCustomLime**

Manchu wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
I wish GW would make a seperate Forces of the Ecclesiarchy dex and make the SoB codex full of just... SoB.
Here again we see how variety and diversity can be different goals. A codex that incorporates the Ecclesiarchy (it certainly does not merit its own dex in a wargame) undoubtedly portrays the 40k setting in a richer, more varied way than a Sisters-only dex.

I should've said an ally mini-dex like the Stormtrooper or Harlequinns. They could give out a lot of buffs to other Imperial factions like Guard to represent the priests inspiring them with religious fervor. Add Frateris Militia for a cheap tarpit and a walking altar complete with a cardinal giving grandiose sermons and you'd have a cool side faction.

**Melissia**

Manchu wrote:
none of the male SCs in question are SoBs. The SoB fit into the the larger constellation of the Ecclesiarchy, which is represented by male characters

And yet I bitterly note that they command the Sisters.

Because clearly an all-female army needs a male commander in order to function properly.

But if such a non-astartes subfaction was added to codex: Space Marines, and a woman commanded the Space Marines, that would be rather offensive to a great many Space Marine fanboys.

Double standards are fun!

I'm out.

**Manchu**

CustomLime - sounds like a good idea to me

In any case, I am all for GW developing more SCs that are actually Sisters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Because clearly an all-female army needs a male commander in order to function properly.

A rather thin premise. First - The SoB are an order of the Ecclesiarchy; of course they would take orders from church leaders. As far as those leaders are represented by male SCs - probably to avoid confusing them with the Sisters themselves as a matter of brand. But there doesn't seem to be any fluff to the effect that women cannot be priests or bishops or cardinals or whatever (women can even theoretically be cardinals in IRL Catholicism). Second - An SoB army does not need to take a non-Sister SC. There is therefore neither a fluff-based nor or a rule-based argument for the claim that GW has made Sisters so that they must be commanded by a male character.

Melissia wrote:
But if such a non-astartes subfaction was added to codex: Space Marines, and a woman commanded the Space Marines, that would be rather offensive to a great many Space Marine fanboys.

In stark contrast to the example of the SoB being part of the Ecclesiarchy, the SM Chapters are effectively autonomous. There being no female SMs, it is difficult to imagine any woman having direct authority over them - at least so far as a female SC published in a SM dex. Now, perhaps there is a female version of Solar Mecharius somewhere in the annals of Imperial history. She might have commanded Space Marines.

I think you are just barking up the wrong tree. A much better example would be, GW should make at least one female IG officer SC and preferably multiple female IG SCs.

**Plumbumbarum**

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Cue GamerGate-esque head explosion.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Oh yes, tokenism. When there's no women or people of other skin color, it's sexism/ racism/ whatever. When there's a few, or a designated faction, it's tokenism. We can only rest when everything is fair and represents the demographics. Why don't you and other representarians just write some guidelines with percentages so we can finaly have some true diversity with every creative product showing exactly the same society and concerned about same issues.

I think you're missing the point. I'm not arguing GW should increase female representation in their product on some high-falutin' moral grounds. I'm arguing they should do so in order to make their product appeal to female gaming nerds. Back when 40K was first introduced, female nerds were a rare thing. Now, by my observation, they're pretty close to 50% of the gaming community, and if they aren't, they will be in the not too distant future.

Yes I did understand your point, but you also used terms like tokenism or sth and then proceeded to say how it only highlights the female underrepresentation and just those terms show that you are at least a bit ideologicaly involved, because only ideologicaly involved, 50/50 or nothing people see "tokenism" as a problem. So, you're not attracting female gamers, you're attracting ideologicaly involved female gamers who are offended by tokenism in games. Not to mention that the you have absolutely no proof that it's tokenism and it highlighting the female underrepresantation that keeps female gamers off 40k, even the feminist ones as we have a few girls/ women here with strong views on the subject but they seem to be playing/ collecting anyway.

You're also throwing GamerGate left and right, which I'm not very familiar with but afaik involved some vicious and boorish attacks on feminist article writers or sth? It would seem to me that you are trying to associate anyone opposing female SM or you with that crap which would not only be a cheap discussion technique but albo showing your bias imo.

As for the product this, product that talk, I see a lot of calls for an American approach, oh so proffesional with demographic data, cater to target audience, better marketing etc but all I predict is another soulless game like all the AAA stuff coming to pc/ consoles from USA.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:Why is it smart to bring more female gamers by bringing female space marines, do you have any data? What if a big part of that apparently mysogynistic, unwelcoming, nasty white male 40k crowd decides that this girly 40k is not for them anymore, and then it turns out that this bloated, time consuming, ultra militaristic, statistics heavy strategy wargame doesn't appeal to most females anyway? Just saying.

Good riddance? Demographics would suggest that your dire prediction is unlikely. Also, if every SM kit contained a few demonstrably female minis, gamers who don't want female Marines in their army are free to trade them to gamers who do. Thus, any who don't want any girly minis in their armies don't have to have them just because there are some in the boxes GW would be selling. However, with their being none, those that do want them can't have them, and therein lies the problem, for both them and GW.

Great riddance, I hate sexist donkey-caves as well. For the sake of balance, let's also get rid of other extremes like feminism.

Yes it indeed seems like you're not coming from high moral grounds and it again sounds a bit like the female rights warriors, they're the same as those hardcore misogyns just on the other side of the barricade, they want to get rid of females and female rights warriors want to get rid of them.

Again, what of the number of leaving misogyns exceeds the number of the incoming females? Your prediction is as good as mine and you said that It would be smart. How would it be smart, if it lost money.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:I think it's better to allow girls to enjoy 40k for what it is. I find all this cheap, stats and polls induced marketing tricks insulting anyway, no matter towards women or me, hey we have awesome girly space marinette just for you our special super stronk girl player. I think women can take 40k as is, just as I can take the portrayal of soviet inspired commisar as cool after my grandfather was in a soviet camp and returned home below 40kg of weight and extremaly sick, not to mention hundreds of thousands of my countrymen enslaved, raped or just shot in the back of the head by soviets.

I'm amused you think I'm a girl just because I'm arguing there should be more female representation in 40K.

Oh yes, it's hilarious. What makes it even more hilarious is that I didn't think you're a girl.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Selym wrote:
It may well be that women in general just do not like war games. Just like how men in general aren't into high fashion (and you never see campaigns to masculinise the fashion industry)

I highly doubt there's anything in our DNA that makes girls less likely than boys to like war games. The reason girls have been less apt to be into nerd hobbies in the past has been societal gender roles. But, anyone who's been paying attention can see that those gender roles are shifting and the female nerd population increasing.

What about this documentary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjernevask ? They cut the funding for Nordic Gender Institute soon after the showing. I'm not saying the documentary is 100% right but it raises a strong case for such differences in sexes and the debate is not as settled as you think it is.

That you highly doubt sth doesn't mean it's not true.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Buuuuuuuut if there are no female Space Marines, the setting and the game are still going to be exclusionary.

Listen man, this setting and game is not "exclusionary". There are SoB for anyone who wants to play Imperial girls and that btw includes me if only they're ever released in plastic and reasonably priced.

Exclusionary is another politicaly involved term in this context btw.

Here's an imo great post about the exclusion issue from some old thread:

Code wrote: I think, there are plenty of problems with that approach to fiction.

1) If you take it seriously, then every fictional work ever has to follow this rule. That means, if I create a fictional setting, no matter how far away into the future or how far away into the past, no matter how fundamentally different it is from our world, it HAS to represent 21st century US demographics. This idea alone is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

2) I'm not even sure, what the problem is.

You say, some people might not be comfortable to escape to a place with a single race and gender imbalace. So apparently they are still confortable escaping to a place, where human life has absolutely no worth and is thrown away by the millions just to have minor military victories. Where there is exactly one religion and if you don't follow it, you're going to get killed. Where people are hoarded to planet earth like animals, so the one true ruler of mankind can consume their souls... but gender imbalance really is a deal breaker!
Doesn't make sense to me.

Others have said, there should be people that look like you, so everyone feels represented. The thing is, there is nobody in 40k that looks like me! I'm 5 ft 7, 155 lbs and wear glasses. Who exactly looks like me. You pick ONE external characteristic, skin color, ignore everything else and then make representation about this one thing. That's arbitrary.

3) Building on the last point: It's a slippery slope. You want black people represented in 40k, fine. But now obviously you need hispanic, asian and arabic people as well, so you put in those. Now you've got all the big ethnicities covered, but what about the smaller ones? What about the native americans and polynesians, that don't feel represented? Ok, so we put in every possible ethnicity, that exist today and we're done right?
But what about the disabled people? Shouldn't they be represented as well? What about transgender people? And gay people? What about people with autism? What about Little People? What about amputees?
So we are not done, until we have a gay 4 ft 5 transgender autistic Space Marine, that may or may not have native alaskan heritage...

4) To me this approach to fiction KILLS immersion. And I'm convinced, that most people of the affected groups feel the same way. When you see this happening (and most of the time it's blatantly obvious) you're starting to think of real-world politics and stop thinking about the world you're trying to experience, which kills the fun.

This is one of the worst problem of "everything is political". TV shows are political, books are political, music is political, movies are political and 40k is political. Ironically the people suffering the most from this, are the ones trying to push this agenda. Can they even enjoy ANY media anymore? How can you enjoy something, when all you're thinking about is "Let's see how well everyone is represented in this"? How can you get lost in a work of fiction, when all you do, is trying to judge how well this supports your political goals?

In short: Keep politics where they belong! There are more than enough real-world issues in need of solving, where your commitment to social justice is well placed and productive (Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, etc.) But if you're taking your politics to places, that are supposed to be a fun escape from the real world, and taking them back into the real world in the process, all you're doing is alienating people and hurting your cause. (especially as it might not even be a problem, see point 2

**Insectum7**

Melissia wrote:
Manchu wrote:
none of the male SCs in question are SoBs. The SoB fit into the the larger constellation of the Ecclesiarchy, which is represented by male characters
And yet I bitterly note that they command the Sisters.

Because clearly an all-female army needs a male commander in order to function properly.

But if such a non-astartes subfaction was added to codex: Space Marines, and a woman commanded the Space Marines, that would be rather offensive to a great many Space Marine fanboys.

Double standards are fun!

I'm out.

Oi. Though I can see where you're coming from, a Sisters army neither needs to be commanded by Ecclesiarchy individuals, nor do those individuals have to be male. Though it is true that the Ecclesiarchy SCs are male, which could be awkward, they are not required. (And technically, you pick your warlord anyways, so even if you decide to include Confessor so-and-so, the Cannoness can still be giving the orders. Heck, he could be cowering in the rear giving hollow speeches to the militia rabble while she's up front with the elite troops, kicking ass and taking names.)

I don't personally have a problem with a female inquisitor adjunct-commander for Space Marines. I can't speak for anyone else, but there's no double standard here.

**Desubot**

Im sure she isnt talking about in game crunch warlords.

more that in fluff the ecclesiarchy and basically the pope is a man and he is commanding the women.

**Manchu**

Melissia can make her own points if she so choses, it's not up to us to decode her intent. No matter what, the claim that Sisters have to be commanded by men is flatly wrong. And in any case, if the issue to hand is, in which faction should there be more women, then this endless discussion about SoB is really misplaced. Yes, Sisters could use more SCs that actually are Sisters. Sisters could use all kinds of things, not least of all a complete update.

It'd be more profitable to leave that conversation to the other ongoing thread (which is actually about that very topic) and refocus here on this idea of "diversity" - or variety, if you (like me) prefer.

**Insectum7**

Desubot wrote:
Well Female Space Marine would break immersion current as the fluff is written :/

and that is the story that GW penned and is on right now.

The worst retcons are the ones that say: "This thing that you knew as true didn't happen. The entire story we have told you is a lie." Because it erases a history and narrative that fans have bought into. (literally bought into)

But you can change the fluff for the future.

Now I'm not necessarily advocating it, but just to float the idea: What if, going forward beyond the 41st Millenium, the number of high level threats in the galaxy puts sufficient pressure onto the Imperium that they decide they must swell the numbers of Space Marines, and they have discovered/engineered/modified ye-olde geneseed to accept women into the ranks?

People have often chaffed at the notion that only 1,000,000 Space Marines are enough to secure the galaxy, so on the one hand we swell the number of marines, and on the other, begin accepting female recruits.

None of the past history is wiped away, none of the original chapter histories change, but the setting begins to evolve. This is not to say the Imperium has a new period of enlightenment (though it could, but I like my grimdark), just that the High Lords have decided to risk Great Crusade numbers of Space Marines again out of desperation. Chapters remain restricted, there are no new Primarchs, the "lost legions" remain lost, etc. There are just more marines, and some are female.

Personally, this is something I could get behind if it was handled well.

**Plumbumbarum**

Melissia wrote:
Manchu wrote:
none of the male SCs in question are SoBs. The SoB fit into the the larger constellation of the Ecclesiarchy, which is represented by male characters
And yet I bitterly note that they command the Sisters.

Because clearly an all-female army needs a male commander in order to function properly.

But if such a non-astartes subfaction was added to codex: Space Marines, and a woman commanded the Space Marines, that would be rather offensive to a great many Space Marine fanboys.

Double standards are fun!

I'm out.

Isn't that all just to vaguely resemble the church hierarchy. I wouldn't like woman commander for Space Marines but it has nothing to do with me hating the idea of woman commanding men, and a lot with going further from the monks/ nuns reference.

I really don't think it's all about GW and fans misogyny, just a theme of this particular universe. I had countless woman commanders in games like UFO, Silent Storm etc.

Not an SM fanboy btw, I much prefer sisters.

**Manchu**

Insectum7 wrote:
only 1,000,000 Space Marines are enough to secure the galaxy

But the galaxy is not secure. The Imperium is slowly disintegrating - not just as a matter of territorial integrity but also as a matter of its institutions. The Space Marines are not immune. Even if it were within the power of Chapter Masters or even the High Lords to suddenly create untold millions of Space Marines - and I have to believe that this is beyond what any group can actually do given the major theme of decay and regression - this would register to the same actors, who are keenly aware of the HH as a matter of their fundamental worldview, as a terrible idea. There is no real possibility for Imperium-wide reform. The leaders who were capable of being effective on the nearly unimaginable galactic-scale of the Imperium are all dead or lost or incapacitated. The IP assumes the story takes place amid the ruins of a collapsing empire. Trying to fit femarines into that picture is going to be pretty tough, barring a long-lost female Primarch.

**Future War Cultist**

Hoyt wrote:
I'd like to see GW make some female heads for Guardsmen, though It'd be great to see any new infantry models for the Guard. The current ones are a little.... lacking to say the least

I know that's from way back but God emperor is that the truth.

I'm sure Female Cadians could be done easily enough. Especially since on the plastics these days the body is no longer a separate torso with separate arms and legs etc.

**Insectum7**

Manchu wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
only 1,000,000 Space Marines are enough to secure the galaxy
But the galaxy is not secure. The Imperium is slowly disintegrating - not just as a matter of territorial integrity but also as a matter of its institutions. The Space Marines are not immune. Even if it were within the power of Chapter Masters or even the High Lords to suddenly create untold millions of Space Marines - and I have to believe that this is beyond what any group can actually do given the major theme of decay and regression - this would register to the same actors, who are keenly aware of the HH as a matter of their fundamental worldview, as a terrible idea. There is no real possibility for Imperium-wide reform. The leaders who were capable of being effective on the nearly unimaginable galactic-scale of the Imperium are all dead or lost or incapacitated. The IP assumes the story takes place amid the ruins of a collapsing empire. Trying to fit femarines into that picture is going to be pretty tough, barring a long-lost female Primarch.

Personally, I would think that 'revealing' that one of the lost Primarchs was female would be more problematic. It's too much of a Deus Ex Machina for me. "Ta daaa!" Too convenient.

Rather, give some new tech/inspiration. Tell the long story of extended debate within the halls of those in power. Provide for dissent and suspicion. Give hope that these new co-ed Space Marines are more resilient to corruption. Say that because of Guillimans wise breakdown of Legions into Chapters, any potential for harm will further be mitigated. Create new chapters and modify current strains of geneseed. Have it go well enough so that the practice becomes accepted.

And yeah, THEN have the **** hit the fan again. Some Chapters go to Chaos, there is a second, less centralized Heresey, and then the Imperium is back where it started. To me that's the character of the background, any forward momentum is eventually thwarted and the Imperium still remains a necessarily terrible place, except that there are now female Space Marines. Female Space Marines weren't any less corruptible than the previous all-male institutions, and then you have a nice, "grimdark equality." Anyone can be a hero of humankind, aaaaand anyone can become a dark champion of Chaos. Nothing has really changed, and there is still only war.

**Manchu**

I agree that "hey there was a female primarch" is dumb. I don't think there is a better way to shoehorn in the dumb concept of femarines. Whether the female primarch angle or something else is more or less dumb strikes me as academic.

The idea that there would be an in-universe mini heresy over whether or not there should be femarines is absurdly "on the nose." There is no way not to make that a swipe at everyone who recognizes how dumb the idea of femarines actually is.

I think the only way to get women into a SM dex is by including Chapter serfs. (Gosh imagine what Melissia would make of that, given her argument about male SCs in the SoB dex.)

On a more productive note - there is more room for a female SC in the CSM book.

**Future War Cultist**

Plastic sisters would probably help diversify things a bit too.

**Plumbumbarum**

@Insectum7

Or just don't add female space marines at all.

**Manchu**

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Or just don't add female space marines at all.

That would be the right answer.

Once you take SM out of the picture you have:

- female xenos (already exist)
- female daemons (already exist)
- female Inquisitors (already exist)
- female Chaos/Genestealer cultists
- female IG

**CthuluIsSpy**

Manchu wrote:
I agree that "hey there was a female primarch" is dumb. I don't think there is a better way to shoehorn in the dumb concept of femarines. Whether the female primarch angle or something else is more or less dumb strikes me as academic.

The idea that there would be an in-universe mini heresy over whether or not there should be femarines is absurdly "on the nose." There is no way not to make that a swipe at everyone who recognizes how dumb the idea of femarines actually is.

On a more productive note - there is more (read: any) room for a female SC in the CSM book.

You know, having a chaos analogue of the SoB would be pretty fun.
Lore wise it works; the Word Bearers are known to mock the Imperial Creed by mimicking and twisting some aspects of it (like the trials in Dark Crusade), so it would make sense for them to create a chaos version of SoB, that's been horribly twisted in some way.

Say a bunch of Dark Apostles go roaming around back water planets, convincing young women to join their version of the SoB, convincing them that their scripture is the true word of the Emperor. Then they have them attacking pilgrims and shrine worlds, whilst spreading the word of chaos. They aren't are well trained or equipped as the imperial SoB, but they are just as fanatical and have the warp on their side. Or something like that.

**Future War Cultist**

And sisters! There's a whole badly neglected all female army who deserve so much more right there!

**Insectum7**

Manchu wrote:
. . . everyone who recognizes how dumb the idea of femarines actually is.

That's a heck of a line right there.

**Manchu**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They aren't are well trained or equipped as the imperial SoB, but they are just as fanatical and have the warp on their side. Or something like that.

Ehhhhh ... sort of falls into the "everything needs a Chaos version" trap. I'd much rather see GW do a mini dex for Cultists that includes some female SCs. I think this sort of thing, rather than the SoB redesign, is where those who worry about things should most worry about a Harley Quinn-esque pscyho sexy type female SC. (Sort of like Lelith.)

Future War Cultist wrote:
And sisters!

Fair play - here we go:

- female xenos (already exist)
- female daemons (already exist)
- female Inquisitors (already exist)
- female super-elite, power-armored warriors (already exist)
- female Chaos/Genestealer cultists
- female IG

Insectum7 wrote:
That's a heck of a line right there.

Some things just need stamping out.

**Gen.Steiner**

I understand, from a business perspective, and also from the point of view that the background is mutable, that there is no good argument against female Space Marines.

However. I don't think they're necessary. They may be the poster boys (fnar) of the setting, but if they are the only all-male faction (and the Sisters of Battle are the only all-female faction), you then have fantastic analogues for monks and nuns - which, in fact, is what they are: warrior-monks and warrior-nuns. Meanwhile, the rest of the Imperium is happily gender-mixed, because it clearly is in the background.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Manchu wrote:
Some people think the SM being, essentially, an all-male religious order is [ fundamental brand elements that seem to be sacrosanct] (including me).

I encourage all those people to do a lot of self-introspection, and ask themselves why they do believe so.

Manchu wrote:
Sounds like a rip off, which if anything makes it more likely. The truth is, 40k is a wargame. Aside from the SoB, the Ecclesiarchy hasn't got much to offer a wargame outside of SCs. Unless the dex you had in mind has a single non-SC entry lol.

Sure. I mean, there definitely was a need to split the Mechanicus in too because the difference between Skitarii and Tech-Priest is obvious and self-evident, but splitting between Sisters of Battle and the rest of the Ecclesiarchy? One would have to be MAD to do this.

Manchu wrote:
In stark contrast to the example of the SoB being part of the Ecclesiarchy, the SM Chapters are effectively autonomous. There being no female SMs, it is difficult to imagine any woman having direct authority over them - at least so far as a female SC published in a SM dex. Now, perhaps there is a female version of Solar Mecharius somewhere in the annals of Imperial history. She might have commanded Space Marines.

That's a very nice rationalization you got there.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Great riddance, I hate sexist donkey-caves as well. For the sake of balance, let's also get rid of other extremes like feminism.

Are you saying “Okay, now that we got rid of those very sexist people, let's get rid of those very anti-sexist people, so that we can enjoy a community with just the exact right amount of sexism I am comfortable with”? That's definitely how you sound.
Since we are purging the extreme, I suggest we get rid of extremely TFG people AND extremely fair-play people too. Extreme are always bad, ain't they?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Code wrote: I think, there are plenty of problems with that approach to fiction.

1) If you take it seriously, then every fictional work ever has to follow this rule. That means, if I create a fictional setting, no matter how far away into the future or how far away into the past, no matter how fundamentally different it is from our world, it HAS to represent 21st century US demographics. This idea alone is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

2) I'm not even sure, what the problem is.

You say, some people might not be comfortable to escape to a place with a single race and gender imbalace. So apparently they are still confortable escaping to a place, where human life has absolutely no worth and is thrown away by the millions just to have minor military victories. Where there is exactly one religion and if you don't follow it, you're going to get killed. Where people are hoarded to planet earth like animals, so the one true ruler of mankind can consume their souls... but gender imbalance really is a deal breaker!
Doesn't make sense to me.

Others have said, there should be people that look like you, so everyone feels represented. The thing is, there is nobody in 40k that looks like me! I'm 5 ft 7, 155 lbs and wear glasses. Who exactly looks like me. You pick ONE external characteristic, skin color, ignore everything else and then make representation about this one thing. That's arbitrary.

3) Building on the last point: It's a slippery slope. You want black people represented in 40k, fine. But now obviously you need hispanic, asian and arabic people as well, so you put in those. Now you've got all the big ethnicities covered, but what about the smaller ones? What about the native americans and polynesians, that don't feel represented? Ok, so we put in every possible ethnicity, that exist today and we're done right?
But what about the disabled people? Shouldn't they be represented as well? What about transgender people? And gay people? What about people with autism? What about Little People? What about amputees?
So we are not done, until we have a gay 4 ft 5 transgender autistic Space Marine, that may or may not have native alaskan heritage...

4) To me this approach to fiction KILLS immersion. And I'm convinced, that most people of the affected groups feel the same way. When you see this happening (and most of the time it's blatantly obvious) you're starting to think of real-world politics and stop thinking about the world you're trying to experience, which kills the fun.

This is one of the worst problem of "everything is political". TV shows are political, books are political, music is political, movies are political and 40k is political. Ironically the people suffering the most from this, are the ones trying to push this agenda. Can they even enjoy ANY media anymore? How can you enjoy something, when all you're thinking about is "Let's see how well everyone is represented in this"? How can you get lost in a work of fiction, when all you do, is trying to judge how well this supports your political goals?

In short: Keep politics where they belong! There are more than enough real-world issues in need of solving, where your commitment to social justice is well placed and productive (Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, etc.) But if you're taking your politics to places, that are supposed to be a fun escape from the real world, and taking them back into the real world in the process, all you're doing is alienating people and hurting your cause. (especially as it might not even be a problem, see point 2

1) Nope. But if there is already a huge imbalance in which some demographics are routinely underrepresented, don't you think it would be a good idea to go the other way for once, and over-represent them? Oups, sorry, you are not interested in that kind of deviation from 21st century US demographics, you are only interested in the one that is all white men…
2) I am going with a total lack of empathy as the reason for why ONE external characteristic is emphasized over the other. It's because… well it's the one that gets you considered in majorly different ways irl while you have no control over it. Also explains about the escapism. It's way, way easier to escape to a place that don't mirror some actual problems you have to deal with IRL. That's also why rape victims don't usually like rape stories. Very basic amount of empathy would make that crystal-clear.
3) Slippery slope

4) Unsurprisingly, when fiction mirror problems you (and the poster) have to “deal” with IRL, it kills their immersion. Suddenly, they get it! But when other people find that fiction mirror problems they have to deal with IRL (and I am using no quotation mark this time for a reason!), suddenly they should grow a thicker skin or something.
Also lol at the idea that something that includes obvious political satire, and a whole freaking lot of it, is not political. Sure, the long description of the byzantine Administratum, or the Ecclesiarchy and its rise to power, and all that, definitely not politics! What, those obvious metaphors about racism using mutants as the discriminated class, even when perfectly free of any chaotic taint? That's not political at all!

Gen.Steiner wrote:
IThey may be the poster boys (fnar) of the setting, but if they are the only all-male faction (and the Sisters of Battle are the only all-female faction), you then have fantastic analogues for monks and nuns - which, in fact, is what they are: warrior-monks and warrior-nuns.

Except that it totally not true. The White Scars are NOT warrior-monks. They are space mongols. The Charcarodons are NOT warrior-monks. They are canon Angry Marines. The Space Wolves are NOT warrior-monks. They are werewolves vikings with extra wolf fetish.
Do you know who is warrior-monks? The Dark Angels are warrior-monks. They wear robes and all, they have land speeder that looks like small cathedrals, they have names that sounds very biblical, …
Space Marines, as I already mentioned many times, are a blank canvas to be painted to whatever flavor you want for that specific chapter. Now just allow that flavor to include female warriors, like it should have from the beginning.

**Just Tony**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Some people think the SM being, essentially, an all-male religious order is [ fundamental brand elements that seem to be sacrosanct] (including me).

I encourage all those people to do a lot of self-introspection, and ask themselves why they do believe so.

Do you think men should be allowed on a female rowing team? Do you believe that men should be included in Amazonian armies, whether in model or fluff form? If not, I encourage you to do a lot of self-introspection, and ask youself why you believe so.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Sounds like a rip off, which if anything makes it more likely. The truth is, 40k is a wargame. Aside from the SoB, the Ecclesiarchy hasn't got much to offer a wargame outside of SCs. Unless the dex you had in mind has a single non-SC entry lol.

Sure. I mean, there definitely was a need to split the Mechanicus in too because the difference between Skitarii and Tech-Priest is obvious and self-evident, but splitting between Sisters of Battle and the rest of the Ecclesiarchy? One would have to be MAD to do this.

We should probably separate Commisars into their own codex while we're at it. OR we can accept that certain armies have component parts. You can choose not to run them.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Manchu wrote:
In stark contrast to the example of the SoB being part of the Ecclesiarchy, the SM Chapters are effectively autonomous. There being no female SMs, it is difficult to imagine any woman having direct authority over them - at least so far as a female SC published in a SM dex. Now, perhaps there is a female version of Solar Mecharius somewhere in the annals of Imperial history. She might have commanded Space Marines.

That's a very nice rationalization you got there.

Astartes have been attached to fleets and larger military forces, it isn't an unused precedent. And who's to say the Admiral/Commander of that force isn't female if your heart so desires? Or is it more that you need examples spelled out in the fluff for all to see, rather than your own personal background?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
Great riddance, I hate sexist donkey-caves as well. For the sake of balance, let's also get rid of other extremes like feminism.

Are you saying “Okay, now that we got rid of those very sexist people, let's get rid of those very anti-sexist people, so that we can enjoy a community with just the exact right amount of sexism I am comfortable with”? That's definitely how you sound.
Since we are purging the extreme, I suggest we get rid of extremely TFG people AND extremely fair-play people too. Extreme are always bad, ain't they?

Egalitarians are anti-sexist people. I wouldn't exactly call feminism anti-sexist. If the feminist movement had its way, it would be top down role reversal in every aspect of life.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Plumbumbarum wrote:
Code wrote: I think, there are plenty of problems with that approach to fiction.

1) If you take it seriously, then every fictional work ever has to follow this rule. That means, if I create a fictional setting, no matter how far away into the future or how far away into the past, no matter how fundamentally different it is from our world, it HAS to represent 21st century US demographics. This idea alone is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

2) I'm not even sure, what the problem is.

You say, some people might not be comfortable to escape to a place with a single race and gender imbalace. So apparently they are still confortable escaping to a place, where human life has absolutely no worth and is thrown away by the millions just to have minor military victories. Where there is exactly one religion and if you don't follow it, you're going to get killed. Where people are hoarded to planet earth like animals, so the one true ruler of mankind can consume their souls... but gender imbalance really is a deal breaker!
Doesn't make sense to me.

Others have said, there should be people that look like you, so everyone feels represented. The thing is, there is nobody in 40k that looks like me! I'm 5 ft 7, 155 lbs and wear glasses. Who exactly looks like me. You pick ONE external characteristic, skin color, ignore everything else and then make representation about this one thing. That's arbitrary.

3) Building on the last point: It's a slippery slope. You want black people represented in 40k, fine. But now obviously you need hispanic, asian and arabic people as well, so you put in those. Now you've got all the big ethnicities covered, but what about the smaller ones? What about the native americans and polynesians, that don't feel represented? Ok, so we put in every possible ethnicity, that exist today and we're done right?
But what about the disabled people? Shouldn't they be represented as well? What about transgender people? And gay people? What about people with autism? What about Little People? What about amputees?
So we are not done, until we have a gay 4 ft 5 transgender autistic Space Marine, that may or may not have native alaskan heritage...

4) To me this approach to fiction KILLS immersion. And I'm convinced, that most people of the affected groups feel the same way. When you see this happening (and most of the time it's blatantly obvious) you're starting to think of real-world politics and stop thinking about the world you're trying to experience, which kills the fun.

This is one of the worst problem of "everything is political". TV shows are political, books are political, music is political, movies are political and 40k is political. Ironically the people suffering the most from this, are the ones trying to push this agenda. Can they even enjoy ANY media anymore? How can you enjoy something, when all you're thinking about is "Let's see how well everyone is represented in this"? How can you get lost in a work of fiction, when all you do, is trying to judge how well this supports your political goals?

In short: Keep politics where they belong! There are more than enough real-world issues in need of solving, where your commitment to social justice is well placed and productive (Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, etc.) But if you're taking your politics to places, that are supposed to be a fun escape from the real world, and taking them back into the real world in the process, all you're doing is alienating people and hurting your cause. (especially as it might not even be a problem, see point 2

1) Nope. But if there is already a huge imbalance in which some demographics are routinely underrepresented, don't you think it would be a good idea to go the other way for once, and over-represent them? Oups, sorry, you are not interested in that kind of deviation from 21st century US demographics, you are only interested in the one that is all white men…
2) I am going with a total lack of empathy as the reason for why ONE external characteristic is emphasized over the other. It's because… well it's the one that gets you considered in majorly different ways irl while you have no control over it. Also explains about the escapism. It's way, way easier to escape to a place that don't mirror some actual problems you have to deal with IRL. That's also why rape victims don't usually like rape stories. Very basic amount of empathy would make that crystal-clear.
3) Slippery slope
4) Unsurprisingly, when fiction mirror problems you (and the poster) have to “deal” with IRL, it kills their immersion. Suddenly, they get it! But when other people find that fiction mirror problems they have to deal with IRL (and I am using no quotation mark this time for a reason!), suddenly they should grow a thicker skin or something.
Also lol at the idea that something that includes obvious political satire, and a whole freaking lot of it, is not political. Sure, the long description of the byzantine Administratum, or the Ecclesiarchy and its rise to power, and all that, definitely not politics! What, those obvious metaphors about racism using mutants as the discriminated class, even when perfectly free of any chaotic taint? That's not political at all!

If you are trying to effect change in your world, your REAL world, it is fruitless to do so through a game played by far less than 1% of the world's population. Just saying.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote:
IThey may be the poster boys (fnar) of the setting, but if they are the only all-male faction (and the Sisters of Battle are the only all-female faction), you then have fantastic analogues for monks and nuns - which, in fact, is what they are: warrior-monks and warrior-nuns.

Except that it totally not true. The White Scars are NOT warrior-monks. They are space mongols. The Charcarodons are NOT warrior-monks. They are canon Angry Marines. The Space Wolves are NOT warrior-monks. They are werewolves vikings with extra wolf fetish.
Do you know who is warrior-monks? The Dark Angels are warrior-monks. They wear robes and all, they have land speeder that looks like small cathedrals, they have names that sounds very biblical, …
Space Marines, as I already mentioned many times, are a blank canvas to be painted to whatever flavor you want for that specific chapter. Now just allow that flavor to include female warriors, like it should have from the beginning.

Because there has never historically been all-male warrior sects, especially elite Special Forces types. I forgot about the 50/50 mix of females in the Spartan army. So even though "I want female Space Marines" wasn't supposed to be the crux of your argument, it comes down to "I want female Space Marines." Got it.

**TheCustomLime**

@Hyrbid

I disagree with the "White scars are mongols therefore Astartes aren't warrior monks in Space" counter argument. Correct me if I am wromg, but the White Scars live in a fortress monastery and each Astartes is a battle-brother. They may have mongol overtones but the Space Monk theme is still there.

**Insectum7**

Manchu wrote:

The idea that there would be an in-universe mini heresy over whether or not there should be femarines is absurdly "on the nose."

Looking at this again, art imitates life? There's a good discussion to be had here, I think.

Manchu wrote:

There is no way not to make that a swipe at everyone who recognizes how dumb the idea of femarines actually is.

Some things just need stamping out.

I'm getting a vibe of vehemence that makes me think there's something beyond disruption of fluff tradition. I'm really interested why it's so important that all Space Marines remain all male, even without erasing their long and storied history.

". . . recognizes how dumb the idea [is]" Like dumb as in, somehow as illogical as chainswords? Or dumb as in, it's against the established lore?

There is established lore about how failed Space Wolf aspirants turn into dogs, of all things. The idea of female Space Marines is far more palatable to me than that.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Battle-brother is hardly a theme that is restricted to monks. I agree that “White Scars live in a fortress-monastery” makes them look religious. But “White Scars live in Quan Zhou”? Hardly so. Despite being the exact same thing, with just a little more precision.
When I look at the White Scars models, I don't see anything that reminds me of monks. Neither when I look at their artworks. Nor when I look at their background.
I mean:

What is reminiscent of a monk on that picture? If all the very, very clearly un-monk-like feature of that drawings are not enough to break the “monk” theme, how would having a female marine break it?[edit]Looking closer at the picture, I can see more visual elements linking the White Scars to fascist-like regimes than to monks. For instance, the eagle, and the cross with a skull on it.[/edit]
Really, the “monk” justification seems just like a post-hoc rationalization rather than a meaningful justification.

**Azreal13**