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I would myself seriously consider voting for them, if they would only abandon their objective of splitting my nation up.

As things stand, I'm probably not going to bother voting in this election, or I'll just vote UKIP again to signal my support for Brexit. I live in a safe labour seat ( the former constituency of one Anthony Charles Lynton...Blair).

We need a strong opposition, maybe the SNP could be it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's pretty obvious that Labour are going to collapse. UKIP will fall apart and a lot of their natural voters will vote Tory. The SNP will of course win Scotland and nothing outside.

See, this is I think is a massive opportunity for the SNP.

They are perfectly placed to become THE opposition. If Labour collapses, thats going to leave a political vacuum. There are going to be plenty of left leaning people across England crying out for a new left wing party to rally behind. The SNP could be that party, if they would only expand their horizons and seek more broad support in England and Wales. And yes, I do appreciate the irony in suggesting that a Nationalist Party that seeks independence should campaign for support in a country it wants to secede from.

If they do go ahead with this Indy Ref 2.0, and still lose once again, then they need to accept defeat, abandon that goal and stop sniping and whining from the sidelines. They should step up and engage fully in the UK. If you can't leave it, change it. If the Tories truly are as bad as people in this thread like to suggest, then another 5 years of unfettered Tory government with a shrivelled husk of a Labour opposition will be the perfect opportunity for a new Left Wing party to ruse from Labour's ashes.

I don't see the Scottish Nationalist Party making much of a dent in English constituencies.

I don't see why they should or would shut up if losing IndyRef2. The Brexiteers never shut up their carping about the EU for 40 years.

Is it wrong to say I'm too damn burned out from the last couple of years to have to choose and cast a vote again.
Really don't see a strong choice in the parties that we have.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's pretty obvious that Labour are going to collapse. UKIP will fall apart and a lot of their natural voters will vote Tory. The SNP will of course win Scotland and nothing outside.

See, this is I think is a massive opportunity for the SNP.

They are perfectly placed to become THE opposition. If Labour collapses, thats going to leave a political vacuum. There are going to be plenty of left leaning people across England crying out for a new left wing party to rally behind. The SNP could be that party, if they would only expand their horizons and seek more broad support in England and Wales. And yes, I do appreciate the irony in suggesting that a Nationalist Party that seeks independence should campaign for support in a country it wants to secede from.

If they do go ahead with this Indy Ref 2.0, and still lose once again, then they need to accept defeat, abandon that goal and stop sniping and whining from the sidelines. They should step up and engage fully in the UK. If you can't leave it, change it. If the Tories truly are as bad as people in this thread like to suggest, then another 5 years of unfettered Tory government with a shrivelled husk of a Labour opposition will be the perfect opportunity for a new Left Wing party to ruse from Labour's ashes.

I don't see the Scottish Nationalist Party making much of a dent in English constituencies.

I don't see why they should or would shut up if losing IndyRef2. The Brexiteers never shut up their carping about the EU for 40 years.

Agreed anyway there platform on Scotland means why do they have any reason to feilding candidates UK side.

The sad thing is, given our electoral system, even with a massive swing of Remain voters to the Lib Dems it would just end up with them in second place all over the country, winning only a handful of extra seats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming that the SNP retain their majority it's difficult to see how that can't be taken as popular support for a second independence referendum, which is going to make arguing against it very hard for the Tories.

 Jadenim wrote:
The sad thing is, given our electoral system, even with a massive swing of Remain voters to the Lib Dems it would just end up with them in second place all over the country, winning only a handful of extra seats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming that the SNP retain their majority it's difficult to see how that can't be taken as popular support for a second independence referendum, which is going to make arguing against it very hard for the Tories.

If that's true also though then we end up with a 5 yearly event that's a long way from "once in a generation" event.
If she can not pull this off now and if Indy ref 2 goes to remain, the SNP should stop shouting it so much and do some serious thinking on how, what and the future for Scotland.

"Once in a generation" was presumably meant as a rally to the SNP - here's our one chance! Don't mess it up! rather than a promise to those who aren't the SNP - If we don't get this, we'll shut up and never trouble you again!

On a side note, it's interesting that when anything like this happens pretty much my first reaction is "I wonder what the folks in Dakka OT think of this". Strange state of affairs when you turn to a wargames forum for your in depth political analysis. Thank you for that, everyone!

To be honest I get clearer answers here than the guff and buzz words on the News and such.

And seems less echo chambery unlike fb can be.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
The sad thing is, given our electoral system, even with a massive swing of Remain voters to the Lib Dems it would just end up with them in second place all over the country, winning only a handful of extra seats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming that the SNP retain their majority it's difficult to see how that can't be taken as popular support for a second independence referendum, which is going to make arguing against it very hard for the Tories.

If that's true also though then we end up with a 5 yearly event that's a long way from "once in a generation" event.
If she can not pull this off now and if Indy ref 2 goes to remain, the SNP should stop shouting it so much and do some serious thinking on how, what and the future for Scotland.

Given that a key part of the original indendence referendum campaign was "the only way to guarantee EU membership is to stay in the UK" I think the SNP have a valid argument for a second vote. However, I agree that if it still comes out as staying in the UK then the matter should be considered settled for the foreseeable future.

Similarly the general election is a chance for everyone who voted remain, or who voted leave but didn't want the so-called "hard brexit", to stand up and have the views represented, if not then we will have to live with the consequences. Sadly I think there is so much political fatigue in the public at the moment that a lot of moderate voters will just shrug their shoulders and vote for the status quo as a "whatever, I'm tired of all this" reaction.

 Graphite wrote:
"Once in a generation" was presumably meant as a rally to the SNP - here's our one chance! Don't mess it up! rather than a promise to those who aren't the SNP - If we don't get this, we'll shut up and never trouble you again!

On a side note, it's interesting that when anything like this happens pretty much my first reaction is "I wonder what the folks in Dakka OT think of this". Strange state of affairs when you turn to a wargames forum for your in depth political analysis. Thank you for that, everyone!

Not sure we're in-depth - just perhaps a little less shallow than FB ranting? (I mean that as a sincere compliment)

I still suspect May might well get a nasty shock from this. The Tory position isn't especially strong in Parliament - and a great many of Labour's seats are very safe.

If Labour can make gains in Scotland (and it does seem feasible), May could find herself either with a reduced majority (which is 17 at the moment), or even in a coalition.

Hmm. Wonder if this is all thought of and accounted for? After all, what better way to deal with the Swivel Eyed Racists in your party than by calling an election, and receiving a mandate against the lunacy of a Hard Brexit?

I claim no credit for this having pinched it from Twitter

but here's a very good argument that says Labour should vote against holding a GE on June 8th.

1. Labour are behind in the polls, likely to be crushed in June, so why make things easy for the Tories

2. If the Tories had to go for the vote of no confidence, it would be farcical to be saying that the Tories had no confidence in themselves

3. Fix term parliaments act was a Tory creation - let them sort out their own mess

4. The right wing press attack Labour in the media everyday anyway, so who cares about their reaction to Labour blocking a GE.

5. Labour can take the moral high ground by telling the Tories to get on with the day job, stop putting the Tory party before the country's interests, and can accuse May of bottling it over the Brexit talks.

6. It would be funny for Labour to block it

 Jadenim wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
The sad thing is, given our electoral system, even with a massive swing of Remain voters to the Lib Dems it would just end up with them in second place all over the country, winning only a handful of extra seats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming that the SNP retain their majority it's difficult to see how that can't be taken as popular support for a second independence referendum, which is going to make arguing against it very hard for the Tories.

If that's true also though then we end up with a 5 yearly event that's a long way from "once in a generation" event.
If she can not pull this off now and if Indy ref 2 goes to remain, the SNP should stop shouting it so much and do some serious thinking on how, what and the future for Scotland.

Given that a key part of the original indendence referendum campaign was "the only way to guarantee EU membership is to stay in the UK" I think the SNP have a valid argument for a second vote. However, I agree that if it still comes out as staying in the UK then the matter should be considered settled for the foreseeable future.

Similarly the general election is a chance for everyone who voted remain, or who voted leave but didn't want the so-called "hard brexit", to stand up and have the views represented, if not then we will have to live with the consequences. Sadly I think there is so much political fatigue in the public at the moment that a lot of moderate voters will just shrug their shoulders and vote for the status quo as a "whatever, I'm tired of all this" reaction.

Fatigue yeah but opposition claims they are the path, they claim the people think this or that. Now is a chance to see a true answer. What do the people think.

If May can pass this, she has a solid basis to negotiate and the other parties can no longer say they did not have a chance.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
"Once in a generation" was presumably meant as a rally to the SNP - here's our one chance! Don't mess it up! rather than a promise to those who aren't the SNP - If we don't get this, we'll shut up and never trouble you again!

On a side note, it's interesting that when anything like this happens pretty much my first reaction is "I wonder what the folks in Dakka OT think of this". Strange state of affairs when you turn to a wargames forum for your in depth political analysis. Thank you for that, everyone!

Not sure we're in-depth - just perhaps a little less shallow than FB ranting? (I mean that as a sincere compliment)

I still suspect May might well get a nasty shock from this. The Tory position isn't especially strong in Parliament - and a great many of Labour's seats are very safe.

If Labour can make gains in Scotland (and it does seem feasible), May could find herself either with a reduced majority (which is 17 at the moment), or even in a coalition.

Hmm. Wonder if this is all thought of and accounted for? After all, what better way to deal with the Swivel Eyed Racists in your party than by calling an election, and receiving a mandate against the lunacy of a Hard Brexit?

If Labour make gains in Scotland i.e more than 10 seats, I'll change my name to Dakka McDakkka Face

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I would myself seriously consider voting for them, if they would only abandon their objective of splitting my nation up.

We need a strong opposition, maybe the SNP could be it.

I agree. While I have no strong feelings either way on Scottish independence (though I am definitely in favour of a second referendum and would fully support independence if that were the result Scotland chose), the SNP are a party I could happily vote for. Sturgeon is one of the handful of politicians in the UK who seems to have any real drive and commitment, their domestic policies are broadly in line with what I'd like to see from Labour and at the moment they're the only ones having any success against the Tories.

I'll be voting Labour this time (as usual) as while I accept Corbyn is not the best politician, a) I do agree with the vast majority of what he says and b) any Labour government is preferable to any Tory one as far as I'm concerned.


Honestly though, I doubt much will change this time around. With Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the picture, the Conservatives aren't going to get the kind of landslide they're after, but I sadly don't think either Labour or the Lib Dems will get anywhere unless they form a coalition and bring the SNP in as well, which is possible, I guess, but seems unlikely.

The important thing, though, is that if you are eligible to vote, please go and vote! A bigger turnout is better for everyone; we get a more representative government, a more accountable set of MPs and if the worst comes to the worst, you get to grumble for the next 5 years if your lot don't get in! Make sure you register in time, get out on June 8th and vote!

 Paradigm wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I would myself seriously consider voting for them, if they would only abandon their objective of splitting my nation up.

We need a strong opposition, maybe the SNP could be it.

I agree. While I have no strong feelings either way on Scottish independence (though I am definitely in favour of a second referendum and would fully support independence if that were the result Scotland chose), the SNP are a party I could happily vote for. Sturgeon is one of the handful of politicians in the UK who seems to have any real drive and commitment, their domestic policies are broadly in line with what I'd like to see from Labour and at the moment they're the only ones having any success against the Tories.

I'll be voting Labour this time (as usual) as while I accept Corbyn is not the best politician, a) I do agree with the vast majority of what he says and b) any Labour government is preferable to any Tory one as far as I'm concerned.


Honestly though, I doubt much will change this time around. With Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the picture, the Conservatives aren't going to get the kind of landslide they're after, but I sadly don't think either Labour or the Lib Dems will get anywhere unless they form a coalition and bring the SNP in as well, which is possible, I guess, but seems unlikely.

The important thing, though, is that if you are eligible to vote, please go and vote! A bigger turnout is better for everyone; we get a more representative government, a more accountable set of MPs and if the worst comes to the worst, you get to grumble for the next 5 years if your lot don't get in! Make sure you register in time, get out on June 8th and vote!

Least if you vote you earn right to grumble about it.

 Paradigm wrote:

The important thing, though, is that if you are eligible to vote, please go and vote! A bigger turnout is better for everyone; we get a more representative government, a more accountable set of MPs and if the worst comes to the worst, you get to grumble for the next 5 years if your lot don't get in! Make sure you register in time, get out on June 8th and vote!

I'm honestly not sure I can be bothered. Seriously. The whole thing has grown into such a farce. I may well just go to the booth and spoil my vote. I've faith in none of them.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I would myself seriously consider voting for them, if they would only abandon their objective of splitting my nation up.

We need a strong opposition, maybe the SNP could be it.

I agree. While I have no strong feelings either way on Scottish independence (though I am definitely in favour of a second referendum and would fully support independence if that were the result Scotland chose), the SNP are a party I could happily vote for. Sturgeon is one of the handful of politicians in the UK who seems to have any real drive and commitment, their domestic policies are broadly in line with what I'd like to see from Labour and at the moment they're the only ones having any success against the Tories.

I'll be voting Labour this time (as usual) as while I accept Corbyn is not the best politician, a) I do agree with the vast majority of what he says and b) any Labour government is preferable to any Tory one as far as I'm concerned.


Honestly though, I doubt much will change this time around. With Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the picture, the Conservatives aren't going to get the kind of landslide they're after, but I sadly don't think either Labour or the Lib Dems will get anywhere unless they form a coalition and bring the SNP in as well, which is possible, I guess, but seems unlikely.

The important thing, though, is that if you are eligible to vote, please go and vote! A bigger turnout is better for everyone; we get a more representative government, a more accountable set of MPs and if the worst comes to the worst, you get to grumble for the next 5 years if your lot don't get in! Make sure you register in time, get out on June 8th and vote!

Least if you vote you earn right to grumble about it.

Bollocks. Thats not true at all. There is no moral obligation on me to vote, if I feel that no parties represent me. Politicians do not have a right to expect my vote.

I don't like Labour.
I don't like the Tories.
UKIP has achieved its single issue objective (Brexit) and have immediately disintegrated having failed to evolve.
But I live in a safe Labour seat, so regardless of whether I vote or not, my vote is meaningless.

I'd rather walk into a voting booth and take a steaming big dump on my vote ballot, than vote for any of these parties.

If the SNP stood a candidate in my constituency, at least I'd have a real alternative.

Word is out that the SNP will abstain from today's vote, so Labour's future is in Labour's hands.

If Labour back the Tory motion, it really will be turkeys voting for Christmas.

Labour can win a tactical victory by:

Making the Tories look foolish by having them vote no confidence in their own government!

Take the principled stand of saying the government should get on with the job with the majority they have from the election of 2015. If May has problems with Tory back benchers, then too bad. That's her problem.

As bad as it may sound to some people, Corbyn gets 3 more years until 2020 to turn things around.

If Brexit is a mess, the Tories will suffer in the polls, and Labour could capitalise.

So please, for the LOVE OF GOD! COULD SOMEBODY EXPLAIN CORBYN'S SUPPORT FOR THE TORY MOTION?

sorry for the caps, but's it's bizarre. Why are they doing this? Why? Why?

The right-wing rags hate Corbyn anyway, so if he's worried about their reaction of cowardice accusations, then that is equally as bizarre.

I need to lie down

I'd argue a deliberate spoiled ballot is still better than not bothering to go at all. There's a small but important difference between registering your dissatisfaction at not being adequately represented and just seeming like you can't be bothered or don't care about the result. It's a formal 'feth you' to the stagnant political establishment that just might make a few people in said establishment take notice.

If (as far as the statistics are concerned) you show up as someone not going to vote, the various parties in play will see no incentive to try and represent you, and nothing will change. A high enough number of formal spoilt ballots/abstentions have a chance to make a difference somewhere down the line.

If people aren't going to vote, what's the point in "reclaiming British sovereignty" in the first place?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


But I live in a safe Labour seat, so regardless of whether I vote or not, my vote is meaningless.

But then how many other people feel the same? We were a safe Labour seat until the last GE when we went SNP, and sometimes the margin is only a few hundred votes.
If everyone who didn't bother to vote due to a safe seat, decided to turn up, you might get a different answer.

Or at least spoil your ballot to show that you don't like the options, rather than just can't be bothered. As mentioned, a large percentage of spoiled ballots may encourage 1+ parties trying to appeal to that untapped electorate and might actually change something.

Heard Michael Gove on Radio Scotland yesterday. His best quote was "There's no problem with Tory backbenchers".

Surely the entire point of being a backbencher is, by definition, to be a problem for your party? You're either too incompetent to be trusted with a real job, you're part of a faction that's currently out of favour,or you're such a frothing zealot that even the higher-ups in your own party want nothing to do with you.

I've never had a problem with May. Strong leader, confident politician with convictions. Agree or not with her politics she does what an MP is supposed to do.

Over the past two days I changed my mind completely. Every speech from her has been laced with cowardice and lies, from her announcement yesterday to PMQs today. An irredeemable wretch.

Gah, so angry. I always vote not based upon the party but always on the candidate. For once I can say that no matter how good the candidate is (and it's Ed Vaizey for me, so he's pretty good), I can not vote Tory.

Also I'm thoroughly pee'd off with the average person getting interviewed by news agencies. How many times do we have to hear the mistruth that May is "unelected" as Prime Minister? The ignorance amongst the general population of how a parliamentary system works is exhasperating.

 Henry wrote:
I've never had a problem with May. Strong leader, confident politician with convictions. Agree or not with her politics she does what an MP is supposed to do.

Over the past two days I changed my mind completely. Every speech from her has been laced with cowardice and lies, from her announcement yesterday to PMQs today. An irredeemable wretch.

Gah, so angry. I always vote not based upon the party but always on the candidate. For once I can say that no matter how good the candidate is (and it's Ed Vaizey for me, so he's pretty good), I can not vote Tory.

Also I'm thoroughly pee'd off with the average person getting interviewed by news agencies. How many times do we have to hear the mistruth that May is "unelected" as Prime Minister? The ignorance amongst the general population of how a parliamentary system works is exhasperating.

Good post.

For weeks, May has had the cheek to tell the SNP that now is not the time for another Scottish independence referendum, and yet, here we are with the mother of all U-turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Graphite wrote:
Heard Michael Gove on Radio Scotland yesterday. His best quote was "There's no problem with Tory backbenchers".

Surely the entire point of being a backbencher is, by definition, to be a problem for your party? You're either too incompetent to be trusted with a real job, you're part of a faction that's currently out of favour,or you're such a frothing zealot that even the higher-ups in your own party want nothing to do with you.

It's Gove. If he told me that grass was green, I'd be out on my front lawn double checking.

I'd be out checking with a shotgun to make sure he doesn't steal it.

If Corbyn told me the grass was green there would probably be a MP rebellion saying it was purple.

Decent man as such.
Not best at keeping party in line.
Would not trust him as PM in all honestly.

Decent bloke. Not a Prime Minister though.

Of late I find that line of reasoning a little bizarre to be honest.. hard to tell if the man fits the role unless he's in the role. He seems competent, has generally stuck to his values for many years and certainly often outshines May in PMQs as leader of the opposition.. and after all I really didn't think much of Cameron as PM, and May well, May is a joke really.. and yet there she is as our PM.

I always have to wonder, how much of that opinion is my own, and how much is the bias I have taken on from the media. I thought Ed Miliband was a bit of muppet back when he was the Opposition leader.. and why, now when looking back, the media hammered that home for four years and I accepted it as face value. I never looked into his policies, I never followed him much as the Opposition leader, but there I was thinking he was no good, no chance, because the media basically told me so.

Since Brexit, I scrutinise everything.. as in the months leading up to it I thought like many do the EU was worthless to us, but with such an important vote I thought I better spend at least some time studying the thing I was about to vote on.. it was eye opening to say the least, switched from a probably leave to remain over night, for me this is a cornerstone election and I won't do what a lot of the big boys want for us to do and just let others decide our fate for us.

Well, it looks like turkeys do vote for Christmas after all. Kamikaze tactics from Labour.

This New Statesman article sums it up best on May's GE call.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/04/crush-saboteurs-daily-mail-just-says-what-theresa-may-thinking

The PM is struggling to get her way, but on domestic issues. On grammar schools, on national insurance contributions, you name it, she can't do it. On every issue other than Brexit, there is a disgruntled faction of the Tory party bigger than her majority. That's the real reason why we're 50 days away from a general election.

Well, farewell to the Labour party. I've been against them for a long time now, but when I was growing up in the 1980s, they were a big part of my community and the political landscape. I used to vote them. Seems a lifetime away now...

It seems strange to see them fade away, but I suppose it's been a long time coming...

Right or wrong, I think McDonnell and Corbyn think they can win it.. I am not entirely convinced, but some surprise remain voters turnout switches in certain seats might throw a cat in amongst the pigeons.. I mean Cornwall is a bloody interesting area considering what has come out regarding their funding post the ref vote.. a lot of Tory seats, traditionally Lib Dem, could easily switch back.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Of late I find that line of reasoning a little bizarre to be honest.. hard to tell if the man fits the role unless he's in the role. He seems competent, has generally stuck to his values for many years and certainly often outshines May in PMQs as leader of the opposition.. and after all I really didn't think much of Cameron as PM, and May well, May is a joke really.. and yet there she is as our PM.

I always have to wonder, how much of that opinion is my own, and how much is the bias I have taken on from the media. I thought Ed Miliband was a bit of muppet back when he was the Opposition leader.. and why, now when looking back, the media hammered that home for four years and I accepted it as face value. I never looked into his policies, I never followed him much as the Opposition leader, but there I was thinking he was no good, no chance, because the media basically told me so.

Since Brexit, I scrutinise everything.. as in the months leading up to it I thought like many do the EU was worthless to us, but with such an important vote I thought I better spend at least some time studying the thing I was about to vote on.. it was eye opening to say the least, switched from a probably leave to remain over night, for me this is a cornerstone election and I won't do what a lot of the big boys want for us to do and just let others decide our fate for us.

Pretty much everything about Corbyn in the gutter press is an outright fabrication (photoshopped image on Remembrance Sunday of him 'dancing' anyone?) or a wilful bending of the facts into the shape of a pretzel.

And a lot of people see through it - and there's even more people worried by the deeply sinister tone of the Daily Heil's frontpage today.

I really think the Tories could be in for a bit of a shock. They've pushed too many people, and with UKIP out of the picture and the EU issue relatively settled, it's hard to see what Right Wing Rubbish they can lie about this time around. Spesh as PM TM is refusing televised debates....