How do you feel about people playing 40k marines in 30k?

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**VictorVonTzeentch**

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You know, I see a lot of people throwing a piss fit and calling the people who prefer to play/only play against full '30k' armies snooty and snobish. Why?
It isn't because they think they're better than you, It's not even because "You must buy ForgeWorld, or else you're a low class heathen".

It's not about the money you spent, the depth of your pocketbook vs theirs, It's about the Setting and the immersion of the game, and you know what? Someone playing 30k has as much right to say they wont play against 40k Chapter X, as anyone playing 40k would have to Say no to an Eldar army made up of Fantasy Elves because that player wants to play AoS (or fantasy game of choice) Elves, and Eldar.

The people who play the game for the look and feel and the story, and prefer it to be authentic have every bit of right to say no to you when it ruins the aspect of fun that they get when playing the game. But you -dont- have the right to EXPECT to be accepted into that circle of gaming if you're not willing to put forth adequate effort.

You wanna show up with MK VII and VIII Marines, fine. but you better shave off every last aquilla on em unless you're playing Emperors Children. You wanna show up with Plastic Mars Pattern vehicles, fine. but they better be painted to match your legion, or you had better have atleast sprung for some decals or an upgrade pack and not to show that you spent money, but to show you give half a feth about the game your playing.

Except you aren't just seeing people complaining about people using Mk VII or VIII armor in this thread, you are seeing them complain about people using MK IV Armor, you know the predominant armor of the Heresy. And they are complaining about them because most of the Mk IV being seen these days is from BaC. And they use stupid justifications like "Everyone just paints them the same." or "they have worse poses than the FW models." along with further generalizations that people aren't using the upgrade sets, or aren't adding FW models later on. Which they know and I know the argument is bull crap. Will alot of people do that? Sure, all of them? Certainly not.

If your immersion in a table top game about moving your little plastic soldiers is so easily shattered by another person using little plastic soldiers that are slightly off, then perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game. Its not about just about adequate effort, its about adequate funding, not everyone can afford all the "effort' people put into clicking "add to cart". Not everyone can afford to put all the time into painting or customizing models like other people can. Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares? All I want is them to have it in the colors of their Legion. If they want to use Mk VII armor with the aquila on it, what ever. I'd just be happy to have another person to play a game with.

All I know is my immersion doesn't get shattered that easily in a game where the game itself is the least immersing thing about the setting. Use your imaginations for Christ's sake, that's half the game. Maybe its not actually Mk VII armor but some test bed created by the order of Who Gives A Feth, and this Company lead by Praetor Neckbeardicus is testing it out or something. Use your head, come up with your own reasons and have fun playing a game with each other. Or politely decline, you dont need to make a big deal about it. "I'm sorry but it doesn't fit my views of the game." Rather than "You aren't putting MY views on what effort is for showing you care about the game." Who knows, maybe if you play with that guy using Praetor Neckbeardicus and his "totally not Mk VII" Prototypes, you might spark a flame that causes him to buy the FW Special Units or some "insert MK of Armor here" dudes.

EDIT: And for the people that get their offers to play turned down for various reasons, there's no need to cause a massive huff about it. Both of you can just move on and find other opponents.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

First off, I've seen exactly two people complain about the Calth Marines, and you know what fine, let them do so imo. I own 2 Calth boxes myself, and I did so because I needed the bodies for a large campaign. But they still look like crap to me compared to the ForgeWorld Mk iv armor, not because of Resin vs plastic, but because Citadel went with the standard dumpy squat marine pose for -ALL- of them, no running legs no based for fire legs, they're all the same two dumpy poses, and in this Citadel screwed up.

Will I use them? Yes I will, certainly. But I'll make sure they are used for proper squads. Assault, destroyer, and some veterans. But do people have the right to complain because they look like someone used the photoshop clone tool on 3 guys 100 times? Sure that's their prerogative, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I highly doubt they'll refuse you play over it ever.

As for immersion, again that's a personal thing it can be different for anyone and everyone. Take video games for example, people get their immersion broken for small things in those all the time and it can Kill a games ratings in a lightspeed second, but people don't get told "get over it", entertainment in all is about escapism of some form. Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room, my immersion is what it is and that's not going to change and it doesn't make me a bad person, an elitist person, or mean I should "stop playing the game". All I ask is that people put in effort to represent their army. I say the exact same thing about 40k too so it's not "30k snobbery". It is not too much to ask in a game based around building and painting miniatures that some care and effort be put into that force.

If you can't paint well? At least you tried, and it's still better than grey plastic/resin.

Can't convert very well? Save up some money and get a GW or ForgeWorld character conversion pack. They aren't expensive.

Can't afford the high end costs of ForgeWorld? Think outside the box, as I said in my previous post. Mars Pattern Rhino hulls were around in 30k in a large amount. The Baal preditor Makes a perfect preditor Infernus. Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

And don't give me a "don't have time" Excuse, I know people with 2 jobs plus kids that manage to get in a couple hours of hobby time in a week, and are usually extremely proud when they do finish a project.

Can't put in time and won't put in time are very different things. And more often than not in this situation it's "won't". Because the people who truly want to will in some form.

I guess you dont actually pay attention to video games and people's complaints because people tell other people all the time to get over it, it happens all the time. Video game immersion also alot easier to get into than a game where the sole purpose is "move dude roll dice". 30k is hardly a historical game, so the comparison there is a weak one, its a 40k Spin off with absolutely nothing telling you you cant use X Marine in X Game because they arent the right Mark of Armor. You know why? Because they don't care as long as they sell something. Using Mk VII Armor and putting the time into painting them into a 30k Legion is, whether you like it or not, filling your requirement of them putting effort into their army. If you are just gonna fight them over the fact that the armor doesnt fit your idea that the game is purely a historical game, that's a bit snobbish.

Maybe for you any paint is better than no paint, but in this very thread its been argued that any paint job is not better than none, as people are tired of seeing the models painted exactly the same "Green and Red".

Again your idea of effort beyond painting and conversion is to click "Add to Cart".

Congradulations to those people with kids and jobs and time to paint, I didnt say that they would never get the time to do these things, but some people, have other hobbies as well, so by default would not have the time to put in the same level of effort as you. Infact if you would use some reading comprehension I never said they would never have the time to do that, I said

Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

TheCustomLime wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

First off, I've seen exactly two people complain about the Calth Marines, and you know what fine, let them do so imo. I own 2 Calth boxes myself, and I did so because I needed the bodies for a large campaign. But they still look like crap to me compared to the ForgeWorld Mk iv armor, not because of Resin vs plastic, but because Citadel went with the standard dumpy squat marine pose for -ALL- of them, no running legs no based for fire legs, they're all the same two dumpy poses, and in this Citadel screwed up.

Will I use them? Yes I will, certainly. But I'll make sure they are used for proper squads. Assault, destroyer, and some veterans. But do people have the right to complain because they look like someone used the photoshop clone tool on 3 guys 100 times? Sure that's their prerogative, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I highly doubt they'll refuse you play over it ever.

As for immersion, again that's a personal thing it can be different for anyone and everyone. Take video games for example, people get their immersion broken for small things in those all the time and it can Kill a games ratings in a lightspeed second, but people don't get told "get over it", entertainment in all is about escapism of some form. Go look at the standard historicals out there and ask them if it's okay to bring future tech proxies, you'll get laughed out of the room, my immersion is what it is and that's not going to change and it doesn't make me a bad person, an elitist person, or mean I should "stop playing the game". All I ask is that people put in effort to represent their army. I say the exact same thing about 40k too so it's not "30k snobbery". It is not too much to ask in a game based around building and painting miniatures that some care and effort be put into that force.

If you can't paint well? At least you tried, and it's still better than grey plastic/resin.

Can't convert very well? Save up some money and get a GW or ForgeWorld character conversion pack. They aren't expensive.

Can't afford the high end costs of ForgeWorld? Think outside the box, as I said in my previous post. Mars Pattern Rhino hulls were around in 30k in a large amount. The Baal preditor Makes a perfect preditor Infernus. Pick up a few Rhinos and get a cheap Rhino upgrade kit. 1 upgrade kit can do 3 rhinos if you put the front plate on 1, and use one door a piece on the other two.

All of those are adequate ways to show you give a feth about your army, without spending a massive amount of money.

And don't give me a "don't have time" Excuse, I know people with 2 jobs plus kids that manage to get in a couple hours of hobby time in a week, and are usually extremely proud when they do finish a project.

Can't put in time and won't put in time are very different things. And more often than not in this situation it's "won't". Because the people who truly want to will in some form.

I guess you dont actually pay attention to video games and people's complaints because people tell other people all the time to get over it, it happens all the time. Video game immersion also alot easier to get into than a game where the sole purpose is "move dude roll dice". 30k is hardly a historical game, so the comparison there is a weak one, its a 40k Spin off with absolutely nothing telling you you cant use X Marine in X Game because they arent the right Mark of Armor. You know why? Because they don't care as long as they sell something. Using Mk VII Armor and putting the time into painting them into a 30k Legion is, whether you like it or not, filling your requirement of them putting effort into their army. If you are just gonna fight them over the fact that the armor doesnt fit your idea that the game is purely a historical game, that's a bit snobbish.

Maybe for you any paint is better than no paint, but in this very thread its been argued that any paint job is not better than none, as people are tired of seeing the models painted exactly the same "Green and Red".

Again your idea of effort beyond painting and conversion is to click "Add to Cart".

Congradulations to those people with kids and jobs and time to paint, I didnt say that they would never get the time to do these things, but some people, have other hobbies as well, so by default would not have the time to put in the same level of effort as you. Infact if you would use some reading comprehension I never said they would never have the time to do that, I said
Some work multiple jobs or have multiple hobbies and cant put all of their focus into their toy soldiers. If someone painted or didn't paint their army completely to standard who cares?

Maybe to you the only thing that matters is that they are A) Plastic models and B) painted but to others, like me, getting the armor mark accurate to the lore of the setting is important. Why is that so unimportant to you? Why are the feelings of one person inherently superior to another?

Because I can use my imagination and creativity to help a person come up with a reason they can have Mk VII or not!Mk VII. Like I said it could just be an advanced Legion Prototype. Or Dorn sent a strike for of Marines to test the Mk VII.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

And I don't think letting someone use Mk VII will lead to them not buying older marks down the road. Some people want to try things before the buy wholesale into it. Especially after how many people have been skewed by these latest editions of the game

**VictorVonTzeentch**

And, I may have failed to get its across, but it does feel like the people with mostly FW armies believe they are entitled to something because of the ammount money they spend when people say some thing like "But you -dont- have the right to EXPECT to be accepted". They may not have the "right" to "expect" to be accepted, but they do have the "right" to play the game, someone out there even in those gaming groups is likely to decide that the other person should be able to play games while they are building an army.

Just like you have the "right" to not play the game with them, but you don't have the right to dictate to them how they should spend their money or their time. Nor does anyone have the right to dictate what another person does with their models.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

AS much as I am someone who would prefer 30k for the theme of it, the more I see "ITS ABOUT THE THEME!" be swung around like some baseball bat to beat the idea into people's heads that you can only played themed games or you can only use "Era appropriate" gear, the more I want to see people use things that don't fit and the more I want to see people try to play games not about the fluff.

Didn't even get to finish my army before the seeds of detestation took root. Thanks.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

OgreChubbs wrote:

The rules say use the 30k models.

Oh yeah? Where exactly in any of the books does it say that? Are you not allowed to use the regular land speeders given in the rules? Because the regular Land Speeder doesn't have a 30k model, only the 'special' land speeder does. What about the Imperial Militias? You know the Army with out a model range.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

TheCustomLime wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
OgreChubbs wrote:

The rules say use the 30k models.

Oh yeah? Where exactly in any of the books does it say that? Are you not allowed to use the regular land speeders given in the rules? Because the regular Land Speeder doesn't have a 30k model, only the 'special' land speeder does. What about the Imperial Militias? You know the Army with out a model range.

Actually, the Vraks renegade line is what FW seems to be using right now under the Imperial Militia name. But since those are 40k models, what are you going to do?

Not play the army I guess, if its "in the rules" that I can only play using 30k models.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Brennonjw wrote:
hate to throw a spanner in the works, but those are the CSM helmets rather than 'traditional' MK VII yes? not trying to deny, just curious as to why they look so 'off"?

They look off likely because of the artist drawings, most FW Mk VII looks like that. Also the CSM Helmets are just Mk VII Helmets, which I guess you could argue are just Mk V helmets since with out the extra armor they look the same.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Lockark wrote:
You posted a bunch of dudes in MKIV helmets.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AT/Legion-MkIV-Maximus-Armour-2016

It's the guy on the top right.

And you posted a dude wearing a MKV helmet for the world eaters. I will admit that they do look very close to the modren MKVII helmets.

The guy who puts a bunch of dark vengeance marines painted black on the table, I would not refuse to play. But I would more or less regaurd his army as a proxy army, and and would encourage them to build a "proper" 30k force in time.

Painting 40k tacticals in legion colours doesn't convey a 30k legion.

Those are decidedly not Mk IV helmets, even the one with the Mk VIIish helmet, if you'll look at the details which is something Im sure you do alot beings you focus into tear into a Mk VII helmet on a torso that is covered so much by a weapon you can hardly see the detail. You'll notice that the Resperator on the Mk IV helmet you refer to is much more recessed and even from a straight on point of view would half obscured by the armor lip. Those helmets posted bear more similarities with the Mk V, but, with out the extra armor or bonding studs.

Now yes, my argument relies alot on me looking REALLY close at a model to see the face. Sounds alot like the sort of thing someone nay saying people using Mk VII would do.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

When the rest of the thread can drop that, I will, I tried talking with out it, that got nowhere.

The two helmet types look similar enough, that unless someone is anal retentive it should not matter. The other major source that could cause some problems is the Power Pack, which come on, its a damned back pack. Or the torsos, which unless they don't have their weapons over their chest, you won't even notice.