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So a Flyer Wing consists of flyers from the same datasheet or be part of the same formation. (DFtS pg 104)

It doesn't say you can't have multiple flyers from the same formation broken into different flyer wings. (You're still meeting the requirements of a "Flyer Wing". You have 4 flyers for example, 2 go into Wing A, 2 into Wing B.) Does this seem to be legal? Additionally, can you be part of more than 1 flying wing?

Even more confusing. Say you are in a flying wing, taken from a formation, can you then be part of the Air Superiority Detachment that requires 1-3 "Flyer Wings." And...of course...if that formation, which is part of the Air Superiority Detachment, is also legit to be part of a super-detachment, can you still do that?

For example:
Can you have flyers that are part of the Emperor's Spear be part of an Air Superiority Detachment and that formation be part of a Cadian Battle Group? (Not that you would get any benefit from this latter arrangement, it's just funny.)

Well, the FAQ, as it stands right now, disallows breaking up the single flyers in formations into groups. Something along the lines of "no, you cant add models to units that ask for one" or something.

Also, I was under the impression that because formations are taken as a seperate detachment, they cannot be part of another detachment unless they are a specific option. Otherwise you are just getting several small detachments that look like, but dont benefit from the rules of, the larger detachment.

Now, that may be wrong if DftS specifically allows Formations for that detachment. (But simply saying formations may be Flyer Wings just wont cut it)

I see your error now.

Flyer wings are not detachments.

They are just special rules for how units of flyers interact.

A single formation of flyers that also becomes a flyer wing such as the storm wing or the strike wing are both a formation(and therefore a detachment) and a flyer wing.

Taking a CAD of IG with a Valkyrie squadron; tha valkyrie squadron is only a part of the CAD detachment, but forms a Wing unit therein.

Basically the Flyer wing rules are just a version of the Vehicle Squadron rules.

Flyers within a wing are expressly not a vehicle squadron (they are separate units) and the updated datasheets do not allow the flyers to be purchased in squadrons.

You could buy flyer wings within a CAD. These could not also be part of, e.g. An air superiority detachment, because units can be part of only one detachment/formation.

Would a Deathbringer Flight taken either outside or inside a decurion detachment count as a Wing?

Would four night scythes taken as dedicated transports for various units count as a wing?

Or do you have to use the formation / detachments org chart given, and can it only be the named formation name eg Oppressor Flight, which I assume counts as a flyer wing?


Edit:. I should say from my reading, the Deathbringer Flight would count, the four DTs wouldn't count as a flier wing. I'd suggest the DbF has to be take from the Air Superiority detachment as a flier wing to get the benefits of layouts and wing commander, gp commander etc.

DftS says that a flyer wing's flyers must come from the same formation or data sheet. So, for example, the 3 crimson hunter formation from codex Eldar may gain all the benefits of the attack patterns and have a wing leader and such. Or, you could take a flyer wing of 2-4 crimson hunters (1 of which could be an search) to form a flying wing and have that be part of the Air Superiority Detachment and gain all those benefits.

The 4 dedicated transports of 4 different units probably couldn't be a wing, since each one came from a repeat of a data sheet assuming 'same data sheet' means the equivalent to 'same warscroll' or 'same unit entity's.

Here is another bit of confusion though...when it says you may take 'a [dedicated transports]' do they mean 1 of those models, or 1 unit of those models, or use that datasheet. It is an important difference because the new flyer sheets replace those in their respective codex. These new sheets add the option to turn them into a flyer wing by taking additional models. Does this now mean that space wolves for example could take a flyer wing of up to 4 stormwolfs as a dedicated transport for a single grey hunter unit. (Though the unit could only go into one of them, and no other units could start embarked in them)

Lendys wrote:
Here is another bit of confusion though...when it says you may take 'a [dedicated transports]' do they mean 1 of those models, or 1 unit of those models, or use that datasheet. It is an important difference because the new flyer sheets replace those in their respective codex. These new sheets add the option to turn them into a flyer wing by taking additional models. Does this now mean that space wolves for example could take a flyer wing of up to 4 stormwolfs as a dedicated transport for a single grey hunter unit. (Though the unit could only go into one of them, and no other units could start embarked in them)

Given the recent clarification where a formation calls for a single model (e.g., 1 Canoptek Spyder) then you can't add additional models I would say that when it says you may take "a Stormwolf as a Dedicated Transport" you are limited to one Stormwolf.

I agree, more highlighting the problems with calling things by 'datasheet', model, unit, etc.

The rule is this:

The datasheets and Formations on the following pages allow
you to field Flyers as individual models, or in Flyer Wings of 2
to 4 models. The datasheets replace those found in the models’ respective codexes. Remember that the Flyers in a Wing must all be chosen from the same datasheet or be part of the same Formation. Flyer Wings chosen from datasheets will therefore have the same sort of model (though they may have diderent upgrades), while Flyer Wings that are from a Formation may include several diderent types of Flyer in the same Wing.



Four night scythes from a reclamation legion fit the above... though admittedly they're not from a formation presented in DftS. Neither is the Deathbringer Flight (or Translocator flight for that matter). I'm not arguing one way or another, just trying to get ideas on that it is limited to.

If a reclamation legion is a formation, sure. 4 flyers in a single CAD slot, absolutely. 4 different unit's DT flyer...I am just not sure. The are the same type of unit, use the same datasheet, but I don't know if they count as 'from the same data sheet'.

Unfortunately, there are gaps in the book. For example, despite there being Valkyries in the book, they can only be AM or Tempestus Scion wings, Inquisitors cannot have a flyer wing with them with the Inquisition faction.

Sorry - have I missed something - how do you take four flyers in a single slot?

Death from the skies introduced flyer wings, they are like flyer squadrons...but better.

Flyer formations are not "flyer wings" unless it says so in the formation rules.

you cannot give a crimson hunter formation a wing leader, nor can they benefit from attack patterns.
Obviously if you choose to take a crimson hunter wing, then you get both, but do not get the formation rules

 jokerkd wrote:
Flyer formations are not "flyer wings" unless it says so in the formation rules.

you cannot give a crimson hunter formation a wing leader, nor can they benefit from attack patterns.
Obviously if you choose to take a crimson hunter wing, then you get both, but do not get the formation rules

Um, where are you coming up with that?

DftS og 60: "Flyers can operate on their own as single models, or be taken in a Flyer Wing of between two and four models. All of the models in a Flyer Wing must be chosen from the same datasheet or be part of the same formation." It doesn't say they can only be a part of a flyer wing if they come from the formations in DftS.

So how do I build these? First let's use the "Same datasheet" method treating "Same datasheet" as "same war scroll" for ease of thought. I went to that data sheet once to fill a slot.

DftS pg 104: "The datasheets and Formations on the following pages allow you to field flyers as individual models, or in Flyer Wings of 2 to 4 models. The datasheets replace those found in the modes' respective codexes"

So in a CAD, or NSF, or one of those, I take a flyer in the FA slot, or HS slot as applicable. I don't use the sheet from that codex, I use the one in DftS.

Let's use the Grey Knights for example. In my NSF I use one of my FA slots to field a Storm Raven. I use the Storm Raven datasheet from DftS as DftS says I do. It has the option to be "upgraded to a flyer wing with up to three additional Stormraven Gunships". So now in my NSF I have a Flyer Wing of up to 4 Storm Raven Gunships. Now that it is a flyer wing, it gets a Wing Leader (pg 60) and can do any applicable attack patterns based on how many flyers there are.

Let's use the "be part of the same formation" method of construction.
I want to create a "Crimson Death" formation. It tells me it takes 3 Crimson Hunters, one of which must be upgraded to an exarch. Instead of going to page 126 of Codex: Craftworlds, I go to pg 138 of DftS. I take my 2 Crimson Hunters, and my 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch. I have 3 flyers, all from the same formation, they are now a "Flyer Wing." I couldn't take more than the 3, because the formation limits me to three. I now get a wing leader, and get to use the attack patterns. But they are still only part of 1 "Formation" (proper noun), one "Flyer Wing" (proper noun), and a "Flyer Wing" is not a formation by itself. (Though there is a detachment that consists of 1-3 flyer wings of 2-4 flyers each, it has its own benefits). As they are still the formation, they still get all the bonuses, just like if I use a formation from DftS.

Now there are some problematic formations.
The "Emperor's Spear" formation is not repeated in DftS, it consists of 3 Valk or Vendetta Squadrons. You can replace the Valk datasheets with the one in DftS, but there isn't a datasheet for Vendettas...so...um...talk to your opponent for now I guess. Otherwise a whole lotta rules break.

But the Tempestus Scions Airborne Formation absolutely works just fine. The flyers get some pretty nifty benefits while dumping their payloads of scions on the battlefield.

I suspect, we will see in upcoming codexes that flyer datasheets will follow the DftS rules and have the necessary pursuit and agility stats. (I also suspect the Vendetta may be retired from active service in the guard...or will receive an errata from Forge World...or something.)

Notice how the formations in the book specify that the units must be taken in a wing? They are the only rules allowing you take models purchased separately, in a wing.
If your crimson hunter formation requires 3 units, it does not give you permission to take 2 of them as upgrades/additions to the first. It requires you to purchase that unit 3 times.

The "All of the models in a Flyer Wing must be chosen from the same datasheet or be part of the same formation" is obviously referring to formations which allow different units to be in the same wing. It's a restriction on what can be taken as a wing, not a permission to take any formation of flyers as a wing.

Other Question: can I take Air Superiority Detatchment (from Dfts) with only one flyer?

Or do I need 2 because it says 1-3 wings?

Mickmann wrote:
Other Question: can I take Air Superiority Detatchment (from Dfts) with only one flyer?

Or do I need 2 because it says 1-3 wings?

A wing must consist of at least 2 flyers and the ASD must consist of at least 1 wing

 jokerkd wrote:
Notice how the formations in the book specify that the units must be taken in a wing? They are the only rules allowing you take models purchased separately, in a wing.
If your crimson hunter formation requires 3 units, it does not give you permission to take 2 of them as upgrades/additions to the first. It requires you to purchase that unit 3 times.

The "All of the models in a Flyer Wing must be chosen from the same datasheet or be part of the same formation" is obviously referring to formations which allow different units to be in the same wing. It's a restriction on what can be taken as a wing, not a permission to take any formation of flyers as a wing.

There seem to be many possibilities here. The confusion seems to be because the data sheets replace those found in the codex. Possible scenarios to talk through:

The new formations - e.g. Oppressor Flight;

The existing formations - e.g. Deathbringer Flight;

Any aircraft bought in a FOC slot may be upgraded to a Flyer Wing (the new night scythe sheet says 'May be upgraded to a Flyer Wing with up to three additional night scythes.') - given that you can buy a doomscythe in a CAD, or AD as a single slot (ignore a DT on someone else's Datasheet for now) this effectively means that you can buy a night scythe Flyer Wing as a HS slot inside a CAD or AD (or other detachment with an available slot, presumable with all the Command Benefits too);

Any unit that can take a DT can have it upgraded to a wing (e.g. necron warrior unit buys a Night Scythe, Night Scythe's sheet says: 'may be upgraded to a Flyer Wing with up to three additional Night Scythes' (upgrades for upgrades - is this like buying extra armour for a DT bought itself as an upgrade?);

Any aircraft bought as part as any formation ('may be upgraded to a Flyer Wing...' etc) - I'm thinking of the Mephrit Dynasty formations with aircraft choices but no aircraft restrictions. In this way, the upgrade with additional flyers into a Wing is functioning just like the unit of warriors choosing a night scythe or a ghost arc as an upgrade (or indeed extra models in the warrior unit! - if 'a unit of warriors' can buy additional warriors, why can't a night scythe buy additional night scythes?);

Any 2-4 flyers from the same data sheet are able to form up into a Flyer Wing (e.g. four night scythes from a rec. legion) purchased as DT's'

Ok, so that means I need to go and get another Stormhawk

As BA-player I dont have any other chance than to ally them in. At least I dont have to paint them red then.

Ffyllotek wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Notice how the formations in the book specify that the units must be taken in a wing? They are the only rules allowing you take models purchased separately, in a wing.
If your crimson hunter formation requires 3 units, it does not give you permission to take 2 of them as upgrades/additions to the first. It requires you to purchase that unit 3 times.

The "All of the models in a Flyer Wing must be chosen from the same datasheet or be part of the same formation" is obviously referring to formations which allow different units to be in the same wing. It's a restriction on what can be taken as a wing, not a permission to take any formation of flyers as a wing.

There seem to be many possibilities here. The confusion seems to be because the data sheets replace those found in the codex. Possible scenarios to talk through:

The new formations - e.g. Oppressor Flight;

The existing formations - e.g. Deathbringer Flight;

Any aircraft bought in a FOC slot may be upgraded to a Flyer Wing (the new night scythe sheet says 'May be upgraded to a Flyer Wing with up to three additional night scythes.') - given that you can buy a doomscythe in a CAD, or AD as a single slot (ignore a DT on someone else's Datasheet for now) this effectively means that you can buy a night scythe Flyer Wing as a HS slot inside a CAD or AD (or other detachment with an available slot, presumable with all the Command Benefits too);

Any unit that can take a DT can have it upgrades to a wing (e.g. necron warrior unit buys a Night Scythe, Night Scythe's sheet says: 'may be upgraded to a Flyer Wing with up to three additional Night Scythes' (upgrades for upgrades - is this like buying extra armour for a DT bought itself as an upgrade?);

Any aircraft bought as part as any formation ('may be upgrades to a Flyer Wing...' etc) - I'm thinking of the Mephrit Dynasty formations with aircraft choices but no aircraft restrictions. In this way, the upgrade with additional flyers into a Wing is functioning just like the unit of warriors choosing a night scythe or a ghost arc as an upgrade (or indeed extra models in the warrior unit! - if 'a unit of warriors' can buy additional warriors, why can't a night scythe buy additional night scythes?);

Any 2-4 flyers from the same data sheet are able to form up into a Flyer Wing (e.g. four night scythes from a rec. legion) purchased as DT's'

A DT is not chosen from its own datasheet. It is an option on another unit's datasheet. Therefore it cannot be taken as part of a wing because the others would be an option from a different datasheet

 jokerkd wrote:


A DT is not chosen from its own datasheet. It is an option on another unit's datasheet. Therefore it cannot be taken as part of a wing because the others would be an option from a different datasheet

That seems reasonable. But can a rhino bought as a DT take extra armour?

Yes, but that is not breaking any rules.
If you were to try and take additional models, you would be breaking the flyer wing rule that states that you must take them all from the same datasheet

 jokerkd wrote:
Yes, but that is not breaking any rules.
If you were to try and take additional models, you would be breaking the flyer wing rule that states that you must take them all from the same datasheet

Wait, is it the same Datasheet OR the same Formation; or same Datasheet AND the same Formation?

If the former, than the Night Scythe Dedicated Transports from a Reclamation Legion or Judicator Batallion, or the Codex Marines' Stormwing would qualify.

If the latter, than the Necrons only choice would be the Nightbrigher Deathbringer Flight, but the Codex Marines' Storm Wing would not.

From 'Death from the Skies' (pg 104):

Remember that the Flyers in a Wing must all be chosen from the same datasheet or be part of the same Formation.

Necrons also have a formation in the 'Death From the Skies' supplement. The Oppressor Flight consist of one Night Scythe (the Wing Leader) and two to three Doom Scythes.

The storm wing has been replaced in order to allow it to use the flyer wing special rules, because a formation cannot normally be taken as a wing

The question now is, has the faq inadvertently changed the formation requirement of "3 crimson hunters" from three separate units to 3 models? If it only requires three models, then those three can all be purchased as one and still qualify.
Historically, the formations have always required they be seperate units, if only because that was the only way to purchase them previously

Does the Crimson Hunter datasheet come with the option to add more Crimson Hunters to the unit?

Not to the unit, but to the wing

It seems there are 2 ways to make a wing:

Same Datasheet (i.e. using the same FoC slot from a CAD.)

I fully agree with Jokerkd that the RAI at least is that you can only take a single flyer. This would be supported by the idea that when taking a dedicated transport it says you may take "a [transport name]" not "a unit of [transport name]" as a dedicated transport. (Using "a" to mean "one of this model.) Prior to DftS, I do not believe there were any dedicated transports that could be taken as a squadron, so it was a moot point that they didn't elaborate. DftS made this a little fuzzy with a flyer being "upgraded to a Flyer Wing for X/pts a model."

I am not sure if the intention is to be able to use the "same datasheet" construction method to mean "same datasheet (name)" but to literally mean from the same choice of data sheet applied to an army. (Again, using a single FoC slot is the intent, rather than 4 separate sheets.) Flyer wings are weird because they are not a single unit, just as a DT and the unit that bought it are not a single unit. However, there are a few problems with this. (I'll get to those in a moment)

I do believe, however, that constructing a flyer wing using the "Same formation" method is 100% acceptable, whether or not the formation specifically describes flyers within it as part of a flyer wing. It meets both the fluff described, RAW, and I believe the RAI. So, the specific counts of models cannot be expanded with the "Flyer Wing" upgrade (Just as a canoptek harvest cannot be expanded with extra wraiths) However, the flyers in the formation gain the benefits of being part of a flyer wing, and retain any formation bonuses.

The problem where it starts to get a little sketchy/confusing and could lend some argument that "Same datasheet" actually means "used the same page of the book" rather than "from the same choice of filler." Using the "Same Formation" rule with say the "Iron Wolves" formation, you could pick a bunch of Stormwolves as dedicated transports. They are all in the same formation (an "Iron Wolves" formation), so RAW, can be made into a flyer wing of 2-4 Stormwolves, depending on how many you took. (And, just to clarify my view, the Super Detachments, are not formations, they don't have the little formation icon, so if you have flyers scattered across different entries, they do not get to make up a flyer wing, because they were not part of the "same formation." However, if you accept "Same datasheet" to mean "same page of the book" then they do qualify, as long as they all came from the "same page of the book")

All in all, GW definitely left some somewhat fuzzy gaps with their new book (beyond just straight up leaving out 1 codex flyer )

RAW, I am leaning heavily toward the if they are the same type of model (from the same faction), then they can be grouped into a flyer wing together. If they are from the same formation, then they can be grouped into a flyer wing, regardless of whether they are the same type of model or not.

This definitely gives flyers some powerful boosts, but they also come with some of their inherent counters. It means that reserve roll-based armies can benefit from having flyers with them, and suffer penalties even if the enemy flyers haven't even entered the board. It also means fighters, which otherwise are not as effective against ground targets, are highly valuable for taking out enemy fliers, but still effective when arriving in the battlespace.

RAW, there are only two ways to take a flyer wing.
You have permission to create a wing through a flyers updated datasheet. You have permission to create a wing using different models that are part of a formation that requires you to do so.

I have not found any other permissions in the book that allow older formations to form into flyer wings. The quote we keep posting is a restriction, not a permission

You keep adding "that requires you to do so." to the baseline restriction. You're adding a restriction that isn't written. RAI is debatable, but no where does it say "May be part of a flyer wing if they are from the same formation that says its flyers may be part of a flying wing"