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Hello fellow Dakkanauts.

I've been in a bit of trouble recently, since a few people said that our game "wasn't fun".
I'll try to tackle the issue point for point to try and not waste too much of your time.

Meta:

The meta is mainly shooty SM/Tau/Eldar(+DE+Harlies) with some Nids/CD and a sprinkle of slowly disappearing BA/IG/Orks. Some of the people in the first group also sometimes dust off their CSM for gaks and giggles
I like to play KDK(fluffed as Word Bearers + Chaos Daemons summons/allies).
I also have access to the following codexes: CSM(with the BL and CS old supplements) and Chaos Daemons (mainly Blood God and not enough models to run a 1850 list).
We have abundant netlisting, especially from younger players.
Lists can be cut-throat, but people usually aren't(everybody has a bad day though).
Just to make clear that they're not TFG themselves I'll go on record saying that everybody is A-OK

My list:

Possessed and soul grinder stay back guarding home objectives, CL goes with the scouting puppies. Everything else charges full-throttle.
0 finesse, 0 skill aside from positioning(terrain) and range estimation.
I can adjust the list willingly, this is just what works for me ATM.
I have a helldrake and before discovering that I'm apparently a dirty I was thinking to run a bloodstorm. Now I think it would only exacerbate the issue further.
I have also bought Renegade on a whim, so I could also add a knight in a month or so.
I will though draw the line at buying FW since FW price + 21% vat at customs is a big no-no at the moment. So, no IA, Renegades, etc sorry.

I haven't run CSM in a while because against SM/Eldar we usually start trading units, and in a war of attrition my stuff is more costly than theirs.

Complaint:

The game basically ends at the bottom of turn 2.
Either I'm in with a FNP or +1 attack blood tithe with the majority of my force, or it didn't happen and the third round of shooting makes my choppy stuff tame(still kicks ass, but not enough) and we trudge trough turns 4,5

Me:

There have been instances where I behaved like a gak-head, it's just that in a heavy SM/Eldar/Tau environment people often assume that you're taking gak units because you are trying to be the underdog/funny/fluff-bunny. I'm not.
Tau are the least of the 3 evils.
I've also been told to change army and join SM/Eldar. I LOL'd since I don't believe that the problem will be solved by throwing even more money at it.

Gak-headedness, last month:

Guy: "You brought Khorne, right"
Me: "Yup"
Guy: "I brought a reserve WS SM bike list with conclave, 4 stormtalons and a Storm Raven, you like it?"
Me: "Uhm... you sure you can't find the points to ally in a jetseer with scatterbikes and a wraithknight or three? I mean, the list's theme is already "salt the earth"... since we're there we should pull out all the stops"
Guy: "Oh, come on, i wasn't list tailoring, what did you bring? Doggies?"
Me: "I believe I brought X-Wing"

Aside from episodes like this I always make a point of engaging my buddy with chatter and I'm pretty friendly. I mean, if I still haven't lost my job which is 50% talking to people I don't want to talk with, I think that I'm actually a functioning adult.

So, dakka, what do I do?

Sounds like it's your group. I'd either

A) keep doing what you're doing and ignore them. If you're winning, keep going, if you're losing, bring as much cheese as possible.

B) Buy some Eldar, run only Scatterbikes and Wraithknights, curb stomp them, then go back to KDK

C) Find a new group. Sounds like maybe you each want something different

Do nothing. You're playing what is arguably the weakest codex in the entire range. If your opponents can't beat up on Chaos marines with Eldar, Tau, or vanilla marines, then the fault is theirs, not yours.

Well, in all fairness, the White Scar list you referenced is really kind of fluffy (if any chapter would use a ton of flyers, its probably them).

What I would do is include some cultists to generate more tithe points and just generally get in the way and even hold some objectives. Also, you can't go wrong with a Bloodthirster. A BT and those maulerfiends should be able to engage the bikes (if they are boosting, they aren't shooting) and wipe them out with ease. As far as the flyers go, there are too many to rely on a single SG to do much damage, so you are at a slight disadvantage there, but then, the points for those flyers is pretty steep (should be about half), and using the conclave and biker marines, you should have the numbers game licked.

Also, combine some of the min-sized squads when you can. 20 dogs are a bigger thorn to deal with than 2 squads of 10 in my opinion, and they tend to draw a crap ton more fire, leaving your other units largely unharmed for a couple of rounds. 20 dogs, and two 20-man cultist units eat up a lot of ground and can funnel those bike squads to where you want them to be (they can't move through your units after all).

Go full on cheese. Infernal tetrad.

so basicly they're tabling you too easily and they want YOU to change your army to fix this? ...............

...

This is the second such complaint I've seen today about KDK.

The first one cropped up in an Eldar group of all things....which had me absolutely flabbergasted.

Grimdark wrote:
Hello fellow Dakkanauts.
There have been instances where I behaved like a gak-head,

I think you answered your own question.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Sounds like it's your group. I'd either

A) keep doing what you're doing and ignore them. If you're winning, keep going, if you're losing, bring as much cheese as possible.

B) Buy some Eldar, run only Scatterbikes and Wraithknights, curb stomp them, then go back to KDK

C) Find a new group. Sounds like maybe you each want something different

A) If i keep doing my thing they'll start to grumble. Then moan. Then passive-aggressive nerdy stuff.
They won't swap armies, so it's also difficult for some people to understand that I can't actually bring the same amount of cheese.
B)Had/have a turquoise saim-hann list + WK that I used in 6th. Love the gameplay, but I don't enjoy them too much.

I'm not that much of a fluff bunny, but I find it difficult to give a gak about my elves and what happens to them.
My WB? They're ragey, made a lot of seemingly small errors, and overreacted when daddy grounded them. Yeah, I can relate

 sub-zero wrote:
Do nothing. You're playing what is arguably the weakest codex in the entire range. If your opponents can't beat up on Chaos marines with Eldar, Tau, or vanilla marines, then the fault is theirs, not yours.

W/L is currently 40-60, but I don't really care. If I did I wouldn't run 2 PA squads.
I also tried to min-max for a time, but there's only so much leeway for CSM, and everybody(bar few) can do both choppy, shooty or magic better, so I went back to what I liked.
List-building is loss for CSM

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Well, in all fairness, the White Scar list you referenced is really kind of fluffy (if any chapter would use a ton of flyers, its probably them).

Absolutely, and if the match-up was random or if I wasn't running charging raging crazies I would have been ok.
It's just that when you know that your opponent is gonna run KDK, it would have been good sport to not go full H&R, fliers and psychic shenanigans.
Gladius + H&R I can deal with, but if you put bikes + conclave + gakton of fliers against an army that tries hard to close the distance and the only source of AA is the soulgrinder...

What I would do is include some cultists to generate more tithe points and just generally get in the way and even hold some objectives. Also, you can't go wrong with a Bloodthirster. A BT and those maulerfiends should be able to engage the bikes (if they are boosting, they aren't shooting) and wipe them out with ease. As far as the flyers go, there are too many to rely on a single SG to do much damage, so you are at a slight disadvantage there, but then, the points for those flyers is pretty steep (should be about half), and using the conclave and biker marines, you should have the numbers game licked.

Cultists are good, like grots, but nobody would shoot them if something actually threatening is on the table. They are also 58 or so pts a pop(8-10, dunno).
Also, even CSM can hold their own against general troops in CC. Cultists are there only to buy a turn if they charge, or to get obj in maelstrom.
Bloodthirster is on the to-buy list.

Also, combine some of the min-sized squads when you can. 20 dogs are a bigger thorn to deal with than 2 squads of 10 in my opinion, and they tend to draw a crap ton more fire, leaving your other units largely unharmed for a couple of rounds. 20 dogs, and two 20-man cultist units eat up a lot of ground and can funnel those bike squads to where you want them to be (they can't move through your units after all).

Problem with 20 or so dogs is that they have a large footprint and it's basically impossible to charge avoiding terrain. If I'm not mistaken MTC only covers movement, but you still fight at initiative 1. The lord is kitted out to fight at initiative, and he's only one 4++ away to eat a PF on the chin.

I have no problem with the list in question (tailoring aside), it's an example of me being bitter and denying a game to someone.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Go full on cheese. Infernal tetrad.

I have a DP that i run with the EW+FNP armor. I can build and paint another DP. Not 3 more, I really don't like the model/kit in 40k.

BrianDavion wrote:
so basicly they're tabling you too easily and they want YOU to change your army to fix this? ...............

Not exactly, they're not whining or anything.

The complaint is that my list is too gimmicky. It's either make or break on bottom of turn 2, and the other game turns are basically clean-up/formality regardless of who's winning.
The list can weather 2 turns of fire + overwatch. 3 is too much.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
...

This is the second such complaint I've seen today about KDK.

The first one cropped up in an Eldar group of all things....which had me absolutely flabbergasted.

I don't get it either.
I mean, stuff gets killed, stuff kills...
I've also become somewhat good at positioning and outranging guns, presenting a gakton of targets, something that other lists don't need to do(they basically trade). The other players somewhat go "Oooh, nice" when what they wanted to kill is out of range/LOS.

 Desubot wrote:

Grimdark wrote:
Hello fellow Dakkanauts.
There have been instances where I behaved like a gak-head,

I think you answered your own question.

Come on, mate.

If you seriously believe that you've never been a gak-head in an argument, you are either:

- Just born
- In denial
- Well, maybe you are actually level-headed

I never engaged in shouting matches, never raised my voice or made a scene. At most if I have a problem with somebody I go "feth this, for our own mental sanity let's see if somebody wants to swap opponents". At most the guy doesn't game that night(yet to happen).

Not saying iv never made an ass of my self on occasion but it certainly passes.

and you certainly dont have to be a complete vocal shouty guy to be considered a jerk.

just sayin. your list doesn't seem to be the issue. and we dont know you or your group. so it may come down to you talking to them and figuring out what the beef is.

my advice, keep bringing what you bring, they can always stop internet list building, if they don't like the games against you they have a choice.

1: don't play you.
2: change their list. it's COMPLETELY unreasonable to ask someone else to change their entire army

 Desubot wrote:
Not saying iv never made an ass of my self on occasion but it certainly passes.

and you certainly dont have to be a complete vocal shouty guy to be considered a jerk.

just sayin. your list doesn't seem to be the issue. and we dont know you or your group. so it may come down to you talking to them and figuring out what the beef is.

I strongly, vehemently, deny( ) that I am "fething Grimdark".
You know, as in the guy that walks in the game store and somebody whispers "Oh gak, its' fething Grimdark"

We actually have a pretty relaxed environment, the problem is in game balance and netlisting. At least for me.
For them, the problem that is that they don't really play 5-6 turns, usually only 2-3 and the rest are 'virtual turns'.
We've also been gaming regularly for a year or so, and quite a few of them have known me longer, so I think that the problem is in the make-or-break part of the list more than my person.
For ffs I was asked to be one of the complainers' son godfather

Some of them also somewhat get where I come from, since when somebody suggested to buy Eldar, one of the guys I've been gaming for a long time went "Don't give him strange ideas about 20 or so light blue jetbikes, especially now with those scatter lasers"

BrianDavion wrote:
my advice, keep bringing what you bring, they can always stop internet list building, if they don't like the games against you they have a choice.

1: don't play you.
2: change their list. it's COMPLETELY unreasonable to ask someone else to change their entire army

I agree, but if I don't change something and things don't die down, my stuff needs to go back to the shelf. I still have X-Wing, but I also like playing 40k now that fantasy was murder-suicided

Well, KDK did get a bit of a boost with the change to how those Daemon Princes come in from deep strike. Thing is, even then they aren't overpowered.

Frankly if they can't handle that list odds are their problems are a bit bigger than "KDK being cheese"

To the OP, are you being TFG because you refuse to play against the power builds?

With the new Death from the Skies book, it looks like can add detachments of 1-4 Heldrakes, instead of having to take that awful KDK formation that has the heavy jump infantry tax for a single drake or an allied KDK CAD. That immediately can add some punch against bike/jetbike heavy armies and gives you some additional defense against flyers.

Ehh... that list nowhere near qualifies as TFG. It's not even halfway in the power spectrum when compared to some of the top builds.

KDK can create a really potential list by combining the Cyclopial Cabal on bikes into some KDK Flesh Hounds and Lords to create a deathstar list. This one isn't even near that.

So to put it short, your opponents are wrong, and you're not a TFG. You are playing the game on hardmode to beginwith.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
To the OP, are you being TFG because you refuse to play against the power builds?

That may well be, but nobody will ever say it to my face.

With the new Death from the Skies book, it looks like can add detachments of 1-4 Heldrakes, instead of having to take that awful KDK formation that has the heavy jump infantry tax for a single drake or an allied KDK CAD. That immediately can add some punch against bike/jetbike heavy armies and gives you some additional defense against flyers.

No one here will play DFtS 2. The game needs a rigid diet, not another round of KFC.

Ehh... that list nowhere near qualifies as TFG. It's not even halfway in the power spectrum when compared to some of the top builds.
KDK can create a really potential list by combining the Cyclopial Cabal on bikes into some KDK Flesh Hounds and Lords to create a deathstar list. This one isn't even near that.
So to put it short, your opponents are wrong, and you're not a TFG. You are playing the game on hardmode to beginwith.

So... I talked to one of the guys.



Apparently - at least for him - I'm "too focused". When prodded, he told me that running into cover/out of LOS, JSJ and all that 'tactical' stuff is not "fun".
So, basically, listbuilding is netlisting/list-tailoring extravaganza, but once models are on the table it's casual city("just want a relaxed evening").

FML

Grimdark wrote:

So... I talked to one of the guys.



Apparently - at least for him - I'm "too focused". When prodded, he told me that running into cover/out of LOS, JSJ and all that 'tactical' stuff is not "fun".
So, basically, listbuilding is netlisting/list-tailoring extravaganza, but once models are on the table it's casual city("just want a relaxed evening").

FML

This makes sense to me now... No offense man- but your list isn't that strong. Decent list that I would think do ok in casual play.
I feel for ya man, been there.
Personally I would say- show them some ultra cheese and curb stomp them to death- then they may appreciate how you've been playing... If that's not a possibility due to lack of money, models, or desires...... I would look for a new playgroup.

With kdk it is all attitude and fun. There is no need to worry about cover in a friendly game with a nearly entire daemon force.

Make tactical decisions that are khorne fluffy, screw objectives I need skulls.

Also, some people just hate losing, I try to mix it up and make less tactical decisions if I blasted the person the last time. Or try to make the game close thru all turns.

If your goal is friendly try alter of war missions! Mix it up.

Sound advice from sfshilo^^

It's good if everyone has fun, but you shouldn't have to 'play badly' in order for someone else to enjoy themselves. You say your win ration is 40/60, but are there certain people who always lose to you? That can be demoralising, and it's worth switching things about with the missions etc. to make it easier for them. You can even offer a handicap by allowing them to bring an extra unit or you bring one fewer.