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Caveat: I am not a chaos space marines player. I play loyalist marines. It is from this perspective that I am analyzing chaos space marines.
Chaos space marines are easily the second coolest faction in the 40k universe, next, of course, only to vanilla space marines. In addition to their cool fluff, they also have cool looking models. Khorne Berzerkers and 1000 sons, anyone?
They are the "villains" of the 40k universe; they are space marines gone rogue. Facing up against a chaos space marine should be a truly terrifying experience. Why? Because these are genetically altered demigods of war...who are no longer loyal to the Emperor, who have turned their back on the Imperium.
Once the ultimate shock troops of the Emperor, now they are unrelenting forces of chaos.
Chaos space marines should be scary.
Unfortunately, they have easily one of the worst codices in the game. That said, contrary to the opinion of some who assert that CSM need a complete reboot from the ground up, it seems to me as though at least some of the more egregious flaws of the codex are easily fixable.
1. Aspiring champions for everyone? Really?
Once upon a time *cough*as late as 5th edition*cough*, it was par for the course for marines, of whatever flavor, to have veteran sergeants leading all of the squads. In 6th edition, things changed...for loyalist marines. No longer did marine players have to waste the extra 10 ppm for an extra leadership and attack for a model in a squad where these upgrades are simply out of place. It makes sense to upgrade a bro sarge to a veteran sarge in a squad of assault marines. It makes absolutely no sense to upgrade a bro sarge to a veteran sarge in a squad of devastator marines. As of 6th edition, marine players were no longer forced to waste these points on those useless upgrades.
Chaos Space Marine players still have to waste those points. This goes against, of course, the most basic strategic rule of 40k: all units must be specialized; every model, every upgrade must serve a purpose. Currently, chaos space marine players have to waste an additional 10 points on a cqc model in a squad of havocs, i.e., the chaos space marine version of devastator marines (a heavy shooty squad).
Again, noise marines? An obviously shooty unit? Each squad demands a 10 point tax on a completely useless upgrade for that squad.
Which wouldn't necessarily be so bad. At that point, the codex obviously would just be giving CSM players a strong "push" to run melee oriented CSM squads. "Sure, you can run havocs, but you really should be running CSM squads with close combat weapons, bolt pistols and a vet sarge with a power weapon..."
...
...in an edition where they have virtually no effective means of getting to close combat in the first place.
Therefore:
Proposal 1: "aspiring champion" becomes an optional 10 point upgrade from, let us call it, "chaos space marine sergeant," which has exactly the same profile as a regular chaos space marine, except with the addition of the "character" special rule.
2. Chaos Space Marines only cost 1 ppm less than loyalist space marines? Really?
Loyalist marines get combat squads, ATSKNF and chapter tactics, which CSM don't get, for only 1 ppm more than CSMs. Again, this made more sense, once upon a time, (*cough*5th edition and earlier*cough*), when loyalist marines didn't have chapter tactics and were forced to pay for the veteran sergeant (and didn't get chaos boons as part of the deal). As of 6th edition, however, vanilla marines have gotten hefty "free" bonuses based simply on their factional allegiances. CSM DO in fact get bonuses based on their factional allegiences, but still need to pay for them (*cough*icons and marks*cough*).
Therefore:
Proposal 2: CSMs increase to 14 ppm, but icons, marks and veterans of the long war become "free" chapter tactics.
3. Models in the CSM are often overpriced.
Example: Khorne Berserkers are, for all intents and purposes, basically blood angels assault marines without jetpacks. But they cost 5 points more per model than a blood angels marine.
Proposal 3: CSM models need to be appropriately repriced based on a comparison to other, similar models in more recent codices.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/05/17 07:11:40
1) A name change of the new CSM squad leader to just Champion would be more consistent - maybe have it so that only the Aspiring Champion can take Boons, roll on the Boons table and be forced into Challenges?
2) In the case of recently turned Traitors, or unaligned, VOTLW wouldn't make much sense, nor would marks. Would there be a recently turned Warband Tactic?
So you'd have Khorne Warband, Tzeentch Warband, Nurgle Warband, Slaanesh Warband and Unaligned Warband? Also, what about mixed God Warbands? Or would this work on a squad-by-squad basis, instead of a detachment basis?
3) The third point is something we already knew - without details, I can't comment on that, other than it's rather obvious.
Making CSM on par with their Loyalist cousins would be the best outcome - neither should be better than the other overall.
1) Go back to the 3.5 rule where a sacred number in your squad meant you upgraded one to an Aspiring Champion for free. That and let them take upgrades at reduced prices, taking into account the fact that you're buying for a 1 wound model rather than a 2-3 wound one.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:1) A name change of the new CSM squad leader to just Champion would be more consistent - maybe have it so that only the Aspiring Champion can take Boons, roll on the Boons table and be forced into Challenges?
Yes. You should have to buy the 10 point upgrade to get the chaos boons, be forced into challenges, etc.
Otherwise, they should work just like normal marines.
2) In the case of recently turned Traitors, or unaligned, VOTLW wouldn't make much sense, nor would marks. Would there be a recently turned Warband Tactic?
Ultimately, this is something that GW needs to figure out. My only point is that they need factional bonuses, and we already have a basis for that kind of bonus in the currently existing rules (marks, icons, etc.).
Of course, GW would have to tweak things (e.g., make the combinations of roughly equal power level, add chapter tactics for "recently turned warbands"), etc.
And it would be relatively easy to do so, for that matter.
So you'd have Khorne Warband, Tzeentch Warband, Nurgle Warband, Slaanesh Warband and Unaligned Warband? Also, what about mixed God Warbands? Or would this work on a squad-by-squad basis, instead of a detachment basis?
I'm inclined to think that CSM factional bonuses should be restricted to 1 per detachment, just like vanilla marines. You run thousand sons but also want to run noise marines? Run an allied detachment.
Making CSM on par with their Loyalist cousins would be the best outcome - neither should be better than the other overall.
I basically agree with this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An additional thought in favor of removing the aspiring champion requirement:
As late as the 6th ed SM codex, sternguard veterans had to pay a 10 point tax for the sternguard veteran sergeant.
They're all veterans, but they had to pay a 10 point veteran sarge tax anyway.
In the 7th edition codex, this was corrected, and that tax was dropped.
It only seems fair to remove the mandatory tax from the CSM codex.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/17 18:22:53
How to viably fix Chaos Marines:
1. Overhaul the model line.
This is the single biggest issue that's holding CSM's back - our model line is in general, 10-15+ years old outside of 3-4 kits, and worst of all, you can't even build the basic bare bones squad options!
Seriously, the basic CSM box comes with 8 bolters/pistol + ccws. The Terminator kit is the single worst kit in the entire GW line. You need to buy 4 entire boxes of Havocs to outfit a single squad with enough 'like' weapons...
Then there's the issue that CSM weaponry hasn't changed one bit in nearly 20 years. Plasma guns and Autocannons are nothing compared to the likes of Scatlasers, Grav, Gauss, etc... Without new kits, there's no chance at us getting any new wargear, and no matter what you try and do, outside of giving every single model an autocannon, we simply can't compete anymore in today's shooting focused meta.
Give us back our Kai guns. Give us Heavy + Hand flamer access to better compliment our more assault oriented nature. Give us a new heavy weapon or two that can compete alongside the killer wargear of the other races.
And give the Cult units stuff that fits! Where are the chemical & bio weapons of the Plaguemarines? What about Sonic weaponry that's both Pinning & Concussive? Where's the sorcerous Heavy bolters of the Rubricae? Why the flying feth aren't Khorne's favoured maniacs armed with Hand flamers & Chainglaives?!
2. Give us back our Legion rules.
GW realised long ago that expensive, elite generalists simply don't work on a basic level within the game's core rules structure. Paying more to be situational, while others pay less for specialisation meant that MEQ's in general always wound up on the losing end of the equation.
Hence, GW allowed Loyalists to gain their fluffy & relevant special rules effectively 'for free' through the introduction of Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics & Combat Squads. Chaos meanwhile has kept up with the old, long outdated method of paying an additional tax for every possible special rule they can access.
Likewise, give us back the relevant rules that allow our similar units to actively function. Nowhere is this more exemplified than our Land Raider...
You see, a long, long time ago, GW came to understand that a 250pts vehicle that tried to function as both main battle tank AND dedicated transport, simply couldn't function as the core rules never allowed for such a unit.
If the Land Raider stayed still in order to more effectively fire it's guns, then it wasn't moving what was also an equally expensive squad into the fray. Yet if it moved at all, it was effectively turned into a glorified Rhino that couldn't shoot for gak. Add to this the extremely disjointed nature of its weaponry, and you had what was easily the worst model to ever be seen in the entire history of 40k!
And so, GW gave the Land Raider the 'Power of the Machine Spirit' rule via the old Chapter Approved updates/errata articles. A few months later, and when the 3.5ed CSM codex hit, the Chaos Land Raider, (which let's face it, is the exact same ****ing unit!), was given a similar rule, but with an appropriately Chaosy name - the Infernal Device.
Fast forwards to the great gutting of Chaos as a faction in 2007, and GW made the asinine move of differentiating Chaos from Loyalist marines, by simply removing that one, critical rule that allowed the Chaos Land Raider to actively function.
Whether Loyalist players like it or not, at the end of the day, Chaos Marines are still at their core, a Space Marine army.
Hence, additional 'baked in' rules such as Chapter Tactics, PotMS, etc... are needed for the CSM's to simply function at a basic level. They don't need to be the same, (ie: we don't need 'Chaos Fists or RavenNightLord, etc...), but they do need a similar treatment with their relevant special & fluffy rules baked into the basic cost of the marines themselves.
What are your opinions about the proposals that I made in the OP?
Steps in the right direction? Wrong direction? Neither?
Free Marks/Icons & Aspiring Champs in no way even begins to 'fix' the massive problems that exist with CSM's...
Marks are great... if you want a Cult or mono-God Legion. Unfortunately, you then still leave over half the original Traitor Legions high and dry, with nothing more than paint scheme.
Besides, Chaos is infinitely more diverse than the Loyalist side of things! If Loyalist players get 4+ codices AND additional CT's for the likes of Dorn's lap dogs, Vulkan's cowards, Khan's mongrels, etc..., then there's no reason that the CSM side of the coin can't have rules for Purterabo's embittered sons, Alpharius's sinister agents, Lorgar's true believers, etc...
It's a simple template to follow - just take what works for Loyalists, but now apply fluffy Chaos versions...
Do Chaos Marines deserve ATSKNF? Of course not! But, after surviving for centuries or even thousands of years within what is literally hell itself, all the while stewing over their defeat at the hands of those they feel are inferior to them? PE: Space Marines + a watered down variation of ATSKNF surely fits the bill. (as in, should they be caught by pursuers, they should have a mechanic that gives them a chance for at least most of a unit to hang around, instead of being auto-wiped out - something like, pass a Ld test & lose D3 models, fail and lose D6.)
Chaos Marines at their core are selfish madmen who lust for personal glory & power. They should still be susceptible to fleeing, as they will not hesitate to save their own wretched hides when things turn against them. But they can't continue to be one of the weakest armies in the game when it comes to leadership! (and let's face it, close combat is where CSM's should ideally be strongest!)
Likewise with Chapter Traits/Legion Ancestry...
Iron Warriors should not be a simple colour scheme - if Dorn's scum get their rules, then the most terrifying & efficient siege fighters in the entire galaxy should likewise have a few fluffy rules to give them some added crunch & a unique playstyle.
Likewise, there would be nothing remotely OP about giving Night Lords rules for Stealth & army-wide Fear. Word Bearers could have more access to the Zealot rule, while a bonus to Malefic Dameonology... Black Legion would easily fit the bill of army-wide Crusader, etc...
Marks don't have to give actual stat boosts anymore either. Alignment can simply be a way to unlock access to different wargear, psychic powers, etc... The Mark of Khorne for example doesn't make you a Khorne Berserker - only the Butcher's Nails, or one of the bastardised versions of that surgery does.
Then to this, add to it the things that make sense in order to actively show the difference between Loyalists vs. Chaos.
One of the most important differences that's been forgotten for example, is that for Loyalists, each and every single Marine is a precious resource. Each and every single loss is true tragedy, and a Chapter mourns & venerates all of its dead.
With Chaos Marines, the majority of their warriors are expendable clones, and it's the characters that need to be emphasised again.
Make Chosen into a unit of 2 wound 'Lieutenants' for example, and allow each one to freely choose their equipment. (basically, just like they were in 3.5ed, only a step further!)
Let them be broken off of the main unit, in a similar manner to how Wolf Guard used to operate. Now you can keep the built-in Challenge mechanic, but you give CSM's more control over it, and let the Chaos player fight more on their terms. A unit could have a lowly Aspiring Champion for example, who can step forwards and eat up the hurt from Smashfether. Or else your Chosen can reliably go beat the snot out of that enemy Sergeant and thus leave his Lord free to butcher the enemy squad.
And you would also give CSM's a very unique identity vs. Loyalist scum... In a CSM army, the characters - those individuals who have taken the first step on the path to ultimate reward or eternal damnation, are the focus. The Marines about them are merely expendable assets in the furtherance of selfish personal causes.
In a Loyalist army meanwhile, units work as one, with each individual being valued.
This is the kind of thing that Chaos has long been starved of.
Making basic Chaos Space Marines 12 points per model goes a long way. Plus CCW's should only be worth one point. Carcharodons got the memo, but Grey Hunters and Traitor Scum didn't.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Here is what I have for chaos space marines in regards to them specifically...
Spoiler:
Chaos Space Marines
• all non-vehicle chaos space marine units with the exception of cultists gain the following special rules...
Fear is for the weak: if the unit fails a morale, pinning, or fear test remove one non-character model from the unit. the unit counts as having passed. if there are no models left besides characters, the unit fails the check.
treachery and violence: this rule grants a bonus to all non-cultist, vehicle, or monstrous creature with daemonic possession units in your detachment and hellbrutes some bonuses listed below.you have three ranks worth of dark strategems to use. each strategem will have the rank value listed next to the name. these will state what units benefit from the bonus
A. cult following (1): models that are not named characters may purchase up to 2 cultists for 5 points per model. these cultists are a part of the unit in every way and may purchase upgrades normally with the exception that if they choose a chaos mark it must be the same as the one chosen by their parent unit. while cultists are alive any wounds allocated by "look out sir!" and "fear is for the weak" will be put on a cultist. (even if the cultist isnt the closest model, though they still must be within 6" for "look out sir!")
B. ambush artists(1): units of chaos space marines gain outflank.
C. hard won precision (1): treat all emplaced weapons and weapon emplacements as mastercrafted when being fired by units in this detachment.
D. terrorize (2): morale tests caused by unmarked units are taken at a negative 2 penalty. unmarked units with veterens of the long war gain the rampage and fear USRs.
E. bloody handed butchers (2): units with the mark of khorne consolidate d6+3 inches. v.o.t.l.w. with the mark of khorne may consolidate to within 1" of enemy units. if they do so, they count as being engaged as normal. the enemy unit may fire overwatch if they would normally be allowed to do so.
F. blessed deciples (2): any unit with a mark of chaos may reroll any results they wish on the chaos boon table. v.o.t.l.w. units with any chaos mark may reroll all failed to hit rolls on any even numbered turn.
G. orchestrated destruction (2): units with the mark of slaanesh may run after firing their weapons in the shooting phase. v.o.t.l.w. units with the mark of slaanesh may charge a unit even if they fired at a different unit in the shooting phase.
H. iron defense (2) unmarked units gain shred when firing emplaced weapons or weapon emplacements. unmarked units with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all saves versus ranged attacks when embarked within or on fortifications.
I. mastery of misdirection (2): enemy units wishing to fire at unmarked units must do so at a -1 penalty to hit. enemy units firing at unmarked units with v.o.t.l.w. must reroll all 6' to hit.
J. blessed fecundity (2): all bolter weapons wielded by units with the mark of nurgle gain poison (5+). units with the mark of nurgle and v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all feel no pain saves and may take feel no pain saves against weapons that cause instant death.
K. glory unto chaos (2): any marked chaos unit will allow daemons of the same alignment to charge after deepstrike so long as they arrived within 6" of the unit. any marked chaos unit with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls so long as their target is within 6" of them and a chaos daemon unit with the same daemonic alignement.
L. sorcerous masters (2): allk characters with the mark of tzeench may purchase one mastery level more than they would normally be allowed for 25 points. this includes units which would not normally do so. units with the marek of tzeench and v.o.t.l.w. may harness warp charges on a 3+
• if a unit has the mark of slaanesh it may add sonic blasters to their ranged weapons and blastmasters to their heavy weapons/hellbrute weapon options for the points listed under the noisemarines unit profile.
• if a unit with the daemon keyword takes a mark of the chaos gods, they may also gain the daemon of chaos bonus listed with the daemon prince for that god for free. if they choose to do so, they replace fearless for daemonic instability.
• veterens of the long war change "spacemarines" to "armies of the imperium"
• Aspiring champions and Aspiring Sorcerers can take terminator armor for 15 points.
• When a character from the army issues or accepts a challenge, roll on the Chaos Boon Table immediately (instead of afterward). If the character is fighting in a challenge with a unique character, add +1 to the tens dice for determining the Boon (max of 6).
• Marked chaos sorcerors must select at least half of their psychic powers from their god's specific table or either daemonology school rounded down. if they choose to use their god's discipline, they gain a +1 to their dice roll to manifest (meaning they usually succeed on a 3+)
• Chaos marines may purchase one special weapon per 5 models
• Rhinos may take assault ramps as an upgrade for 10 points. This makes them assault vehicles
• Abbadon is a Lord of War.
• mark of nurgle gives +1 feel no pain (or 6+ feel no pain if the unit does not already have it) to a maximum of 4+
• Rhinos may be selected as a fast attack choice.
• warp talons do not roll for scatter when entering from deep strike reserves.
• If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen.
• If a model with daemonic possession would consume a vehicle it is transporting, that vehicle suffers a glancing hit instead.
• Ahriman may take powers from the divination school
• Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex spacemarine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same.
• All non-unique units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each
• The daemonic possession upgrade grants the “daemon” special rule to whatever unit it is equipped to.
I also adjusted point totals for them and changed the daemon engines to monstrous creatures here...
Spoiler:
(with this setup, any monstrous creatures that have the “demonforge” rule lose a wound instead of a hullpoint when they roll a “1” after activation, explode when they lose their last wound just like a vehicle would due to an explodes result, and are allowed to fire one more weapon than usual when shooting)
• Khorne Lord of Skulls: add gaze of pain (24’ S10 ap1 heavy 2) init 4, and add 3 hullpoints 888 points
• Forge fiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 165
• Maulerfiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 140
• Defiler (becomes a monstrous creature with 5 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 195
• Helldrake (becomes a flying monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 175
• Daemon prince 105
• Hellbrute (4A base) 100
• Land raider 255 (fast vehicle)
• Vindicator 95
• Predator 75
• Rhino 35
• Thunderhawk gunship: 588
• drop pod: 40 points. may take dirge castors.
The chaos marines on the tables in our group can stand for to toe with ANYBODY. I have more houserules as well, but I'm not going to paste all of those here
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/22 05:59:30
You did literally nothing to fix the core issues with the codex. For example, Vanilla Marines could already take one Special Weapon per 5 guys. Yet you list it as a fix.
Everything is stupidly overcosted and has little synergy.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
To restore the fluff and get some options to be more flexible.
Troops:
CSM - 5 -20
14 each- LD 9 Vet of the LW.
+1 to add CCW 1 Special weapon for every 5 marines.
1 HW for every 10 (replaces one special weapon).
Aspiring champion is free if squad is 10 or more.
AC +1 A +1W +1 LD.
He also serves as an Icon in the unit. Costs the same.
May take ranged weapons or melee weapom and 1 chaos reward as desired.
The squad may also take a banner bearer at cost.
Traitor Marine(Recent converts) 5-10
13 each LD 8. Bolter and bolt pistol. May replace bolter with chainsword.
1 SW/ 5 marines. 1 more if squad of 10. May replace with one HW.
SW and HW options as SM codex. (Yes you can take Grav Weapons. No you can’t take an AC)
+10 Aspiring Champion. (Not required) Otherwise as CSM above.
Cultists- As before.
Acolyte of Chaos - +10 points. +1 A +1 W +1 LD. Zealot. Only unlocked if you have a Dark Apostle.
Chosen - 5 - 20. All have options and stat lines of Aspiring Champions
Possessed. Demons and +1 W otherwise the same.
Khorne Berzerkers - Same except they get +1 A. Chain Axe for +4 and get rend.
Aspiring champion unlocked at 8 or more.
Thousand Sons - Same as now they get +1 BS.
Aspiring Sorcerer unlocked at 9 or more. Option to take Doom Bolt as default for +15 otherwise roll as normal. Also BP gets AP 3 ammo.
Emporers Children - Same as now they get fleet. Suggestions for more appropriate than fleet.
AC unlocked at 6 or more. Same options as now but option may take a Doom Siren in place of a normal Ranged Weapon option
Plague Marines - Same as now but +1 W.
AC unlocked at 7 or more.
Terminators Removed as an option but for +15 can upgrade Chosen or KB, EC,PM or 1000 Sons. Get AC2, PW and unlocks the options of current terminators.
Add option to heavy weapons of
Hellspitter +10 or +15.. Heavy flamer template or Flamer stats and 6” Torrent
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/22 19:12:36
I need the GW writters to continue having their heads lodged up a d0nk3y's c4ve and continue to poop on CSM by making horribly weak codeices for CSM because I need a good reason to validate my recent $120 purchase of a FW codex called Imperial Armor: Siege of Vraks. Heck I need CSMtk continue to be horrible to justify my purchase and building of my Renegades and Heretics army when I could have just bought an eldar net list and be auto winning games like a noob with no skill.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You did literally nothing to fix the core issues with the codex. For example, Vanilla Marines could already take one Special Weapon per 5 guys. Yet you list it as a fix.
Everything is stupidly overcosted and has little synergy.
Except chaos marines are currently able to be fielded as a 20 man squad with a max of two special weapons.
Also, are you not reading the army wide buffs to the marine units, the option for assault rhinos, the addition of drop pods with dirge castors, or the fact that all of the daemon engines are now monstrous creatures?
There are setups here to allow mobile noise Marines, better psychic presence for a thousand suns army, better daemonic assistance for word bearers, more viable cultist support, tactical fluidity and more capable melee focused builds all around, including their speed issue.
I even made the landraider fast for crying out loud! What are they missing?
And nobody fields 20 man sqauds ever. So it IS pointless. Plus everything is still over costed. You aren't fixing the core. Nobody cares about your special snowflake locals. We need fixes to make the codex work in an actual competitive environment. Yours won't do that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And nobody fields 20 man sqauds ever. So it IS pointless. Plus everything is still over costed. You aren't fixing the core. Nobody cares about your special snowflake locals. We need fixes to make the codex work in an actual competitive environment. Yours won't do that.
How much cheaper would you make them, since I gave them a chapter tactic type upgrade and their own leadership modifying rule for free? Did you actually look at what is in there, or did you see there wasn't just point dumps accross the board and decide it wasn't good enough?
Traditio: I like your ideas, but they force the players to run a god specific old legion in order to get the most from it. There are too many armies that wouldn't make sense to have those particular rules added...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 07:22:15
I had a different solution to some of these problems. It involved increased customization of units through unit champions. You can read the thread here:
fallinq wrote: I had a different solution to some of these problems. It involved increased customization of units through unit champions. You can read the thread here:
fallinq wrote: I had a different solution to some of these problems. It involved increased customization of units through unit champions. You can read the thread here:
That is a cool idea! I've been focusing on trying to bring the whole unit up to loyalist level by giving them "evil" versions of their special rules.
See, I've never been a huge fan of the Chaos Marines just being "evil" versions of their loyalist counterparts. That's why my idea was to emphasize one of the differences: loyalist collectivism vs. traitor individualism. Loyalists work better as a team, but traitors have more remarkable leaders.
I added more gear options to the leaders as well as removed so.e of the penalty for having to issue challenges by letting them roll the boon for succeeding as opposed to winning.
I tried to give out thematic bonuses that wouldn't be unheard of for the different wargame's modus operandi. So some grant bonuses for using fortifications, some utilise cultists more effectively, some are simply more scary than others, etc.
I have a thread on here with the rest of my houserules too, including generic houserules and eratta for most armies in the game similar to the one I posted above.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And nobody fields 20 man sqauds ever. So it IS pointless. Plus everything is still over costed. You aren't fixing the core. Nobody cares about your special snowflake locals. We need fixes to make the codex work in an actual competitive environment. Yours won't do that.
Were my proposals a step in the right direction?
You didn't post many, but I'm always a fan of a non-mandatory Champion.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
1. Let the cultist units provide protection for CSMs, like they are considered being in the same unit whilst they remain in coherency for the Shooting-at-them purpose, unless they flee or are gone to ground
Then may be there will be a point at fielding footsloggers and havocs, and some Word Bearers fluffyness.
2. Deep strike shenanigans. Just give Helbrutes and everything that can take a Rhino the loyalist Drop pod option. And make all icons include locator beacons.
3. Yes the Marks should be free. Also let the units (except unique ones) take Veteran skill instead of a mark (free too) if they have VotLW:
Outflank, Hit and Run, Stealth, Monster hunter, Tank Hunter or Preferred enemy.
4. Buff units equivalent to loyalist ones
> 10 pts discount on Chosen melee weapons
> 5 ppm discount on Chaos terminators. Also discount dual lightning claws, chain and power fists by 5 pts, and let the unit champion use unit's melee options instead of more expensive Wargear list ones
> +2 Attacks and -10 pts for Helbrute weapon options like TL Lascannon, including the Scourge. Also reduce brute's cost by 10pts since it does not have in-built bolters for fists and is rebellious, and I think dataslate Helbrutes say they are produced en masse.
> 1-3 Vehicle squadrons. Let the Iron warriors have their fluffy Vindicator squadrons.
5. Buff the other poor garbage units and options so they can be useful:
Spoiler:
> Berzerkers: count Chaos Rhinos as Assault vehicles, and unless they disembarked the same turn they can both Run and Charge
> Marked Psykers: no longer limited in their psy powers by mark, and can access Divination and Telekinesis like loyalists can
> Possessed: Rending special rule and -3 ppm.
> Warp talons: if they use their packs on Assault, no overwatch at them, count as having frag grens and the target takes Blind test. Also only scatter 1D6" on DS.
> Mutilators: 1-5 per unit, +5 ppm, replace SnP for Rampage, add +1 WS, S and T. They would still probably lose to A-cents.
> Defiler: PotMS, +3" to Move Run and Charge ranges, -30 pts, Power scourge is free
> Forgefiend: -40 pts
> Chaos LR: -30 pts. Add free option to replace twin Lascannons for Reaper autocannons increasing capacity to 14 models
> Raptors: VotLW is 1 ppm, also let them take a power weapon or lightning claws for 5 pts instead of special weapon
> Dark Apostles: Demagogue is 12" blob of re-rolling failed Morale, Fear and Pinning.
> Lucius: Rending, Eternal warrior, +1 VP to the owner if killed
> Fabius: let him buff up to total of 30 models of CSMs in any number of units, and give him Narthecium.
> Abaddon: any unit he is attached to can DS, does not scatter on DS and can arrive turn 1, 2 or 3 chosen during deployment.
> Ahriman: spell familiar and acces to all psy disciplines
> Dimensional key: can be activated even upon removal of friendly model as casualty in the same model, even if it was killed in other phase than Assault
> Magnus scrolls: let it just give +1 Mastery level, and option to add 1 to the Harness rolls (but then peril on double 5 and double 6)
> Destroyer blades: 10 pts, a Tank shocked unit takes one S5 Ap- hit for each model removed from the way of vehicle
> Warpflame gargoyles: any unit shot at by a vehicle has -1 to cover saves until end of the phase after shooting attack is resolved. Stacks.
> Combat familiar: 15 pts for +1 Attack, and once per game can re-roll failed saving throw though then lose attack bonus
6. Formations giving free special rules or units.
**** Slaves to the Darkness **** Super-formation
any number of Cores, at least one Command or Auxilary, Auxilaries up to number of Cores, 0-1 command per Core
Buffs:
1. Stubborn.
2. Each non-vehicle unit can take one more Veteran skill than allowed, even if they do not take VotLW or do have mark.
3. A Warlord can re-roll the trait if he is from that formation.
Formations:
Spoiler:
*** Reality ripping assault *** CORE
2 units of Warp talons
1-6 units of Infantry units: CSMs, Possessed, Chosen, Havocs, Chaos Terminators, Mutilators, Obliterators and all the Cults
0-2 Helbrutes
Restriction: no dedicated transports
Buffs:
1. Entire formation has DS, must be put into DS reserve, arrives turn 1, each unit scatters 1D6". Every enemy unit within 6" of any unit from the formation immediately takes the Blind test.
*** Blasphemous cult *** CORE
2-4 Cultist units
1 Dark Apostle
1-4 units of CSMs and/or Possessed
Restriction: everything starts on the table and on foot
Buffs:
1. Crusader, Relentless, Objective secured
2. Wrath of Chaos: once per game a formation can re-roll all failed to Hits for one Shooting or Assault phase
*** Warp forge *** AUXILARY
3 units of Defilers, Maulerfiends and/or Forgefiends
Buffs:
1. Each unit can use Daemonforge each player turn.
2. Each unit has +1 to invuln save whilst within 6" of both other units from the formation.
*** Raptor cult *** CORE
1 Chaos Lord on jump pack
2-4 units of Raptors
0-2 unit of Warp talons
Buffs:
1. Jump pack skill: units from the formation can re-roll scatter dice when arriving via DS.
2. Vox Screech: any unit assaulted by a unit from that fromation can not fire Overwatch.
3. Raptor Lord: a Chaos Lord from the formation has Fear special rule, and enemy units within 6" of him have -2 Leadrship.
*** Legionairy warband *** CORE
1 Chaos Lord or any of the unique characters.
2-4 units of Chosen and/or CSMs and/or Cult units with the mark same as the Lord
1-3 units of Chaos Terminators, Possessed and/or Helbrutes
1-3 units of Havocs, Chaos Bikers and/or Chaos Predators
Restriction: VotLW for everyone.
Buffs:
1. Objective secured.
2. Each non-vehicle unit must choose either +1 WS or +1 BS.
3. Chaos Predators in the formation have +1 BS and ignore Crew shaken result but may not take Daemonic Possession.
*** Sabotage force *** Auxilary
1 Chaos Lord on foot
4 units of Chosen, Havocs and/or CSMs 0-1 unit of Raptors
Restriction: a formation must deploy using Infiltrate
Buffs: Infiltrate, Tank hunters
*** Sorcerer coven *** Command
3-5 Chaos Sorcerers and/or Thousand sons and/or Ahriman
Buffs: every Psyker generates 1 more Warp charge. Each of them harnesses the Warp on 3+ for Malefic Daemonology and Force psychic powers.
*** Lords of the Long War *** Command
3 Chaos Lords, Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles and/or Sorcerers and/or any of the unique characters.
Buffs: Friendly units within 12" of them gain Crusader and can use their Leadership.
Each model from the formation gains free Gift of Mutation and VotLW and can re-roll any Boon table rolls they make.
*** Iron hounds *** Auxilary
3 units of Chaos bikers
Buffs: Scouts, Skilled rider;
*** Chaos Tank assault *** Auxilary
3 units of Chaos Land Raiders, Chaos Predators and/or Chaos Vindicators
Buffs:
1. PotMS 2. Each unit can take Destroyer blades for free
*** Daemonkin *** Core
1 Daemon prince
2-4 units of Possessed, Mutilators, Obliterators and/or Warp talons
Buffs:
1. The models from this formation gain Daemon Prince's aligment (daemon of) as long as he is on board.
2. Daemonic feast: each time a unit from the formation removes enemy unit as a casualty, add 1 on the following chart, starting with 0 during deployment:
1+. increase Movement, Run and Charge ranges by 3".
4+. Shrouded
9+. re-roll failed invuln.saves.
The chart applies to the entire formation.
7. Warlord traits rework so there would be a reson to roll on that table
1) Black Crusader is 12" blob of Crusader and Move through cover
2) Flames of Spite: a Warlord and his unit have Blind on all their melee and shooting attacks, and Blind test caused by them are at -1 Initiative
3) Master of Deception: Infiltrate any 3 units and a Warlord.
4) Hatred Incarnate: Zealot.
5) Lord of Terror: Fear, enemy units within 6" have -2 Leadership
6) Exalted champion: one weapon of a Warlord is Master Crafted, and he gains one additional roll on the Boon table re-rolling 11-16, 21-22 and 65-66.
8. Psy powers rework: no more mandatory rolls, and they are harnessed on 3+
Spoiler:
Tzeentch:
0. Firestorm is Large blast at Ap4
1. Boon of Mutation does no damage, spawndoom chance is enough. Also re-roll 11-16 result.
3. Breath of Chaos: 1 Warp charge.
Nurgle:
0. Rot does 2d6 hits at 7"
1. Weapon Virus also lowers BS by 1
2. Gift of Contagion: does not affect vehicles
> Flyblown palsy forces the target to Snapfire as well as giving it Shrouded and -1 Attack
> Muscular Atrophy as well as forbidding Run and -1 Strength, makes the target not benefit from Relentless or Slow and Purposeful for the purposes of firing
3. Plague wind: 1 Warp charge.
Slaanesh:
0. Sensoric Overload: 6 Shots.
1. Hysterical frenzy: roll twice, both are applied (if double is rolled then it stacks)
3. Ecstatic seizured: 1 Warp charge, Ignores cover.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/24 08:41:48
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