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Big, long wall of text, read if you want. Or not. I just needed to get this off my chest.

Went to a local X-wing Tournament a week ago, and for the most part, had a great time. I love X-wing, but my club doesn't play it much. I've got a lot more experience with Star Trek Attack Wing. The two systems are basically the same, except for a lot of "Gotcha!" rules. I knew this going in, and it was no big deal to me. I occasionally visit the FFG Forums and browse the X-Wing forums here on Dakka Dakka. I am no meta player at all, and more often then not, the lists posted are in Greek to me. PTL? Fat Han? U-Boat? I have no idea what they are talking about. So when it came to the 100 point tournament, I basically built a list that had stuff I liked and thought was cool.

Scum List
Bossk YV-666
Hounds Tooth Tittle
-Nashtah Pup Pilot (Z-95)
Bobba Fett
Greedo
K-4 Security Droid
Inertial Dampeners
Mangler Cannon
Calculation
Palob Godalhi (HWK)
Recon Specialist
Twin Laser Turret
Hot Shot Blasters
Kaa'To Leeachos (named Z-95)
Crack Shot

Optimized list? Far from it. Inertial Dampeners on the YV-666 was superfluous- the YV-666 had the maneuver on the dial that Inertial Dampeners granted. Crack Shot on Kaa'To was pretty useless on a ship with only two attack dice. My first opponent has two ships: A Tie Phantom that could stay cloaked all the time and move all over the place, and an Imperial Decimator that was loaded to the gills with extra movement, Emperor Palpatine that allows him to change one die roll, etc. etc. Lots of cards I'd never seen or heard of. Had a lot of fun that game. Bobba Fett managed to take out Emperor Palpatine- which was the highlight of the tournament for me, and I ended up losing the game due to a blown dice roll when time was called. I also discovered that debris have different rules from obstacles, which I didn't know. So that was something. Anyways, great opponent, had a lot of fun.

Second Game: My opponent was another Scum player that was running a YV-666 as well, but basically nothing on it, and then two Punishing Ones- the new funky Scum freighter that has all green left turns, but white and red right turns? It was a total meta list with turrets, extra moves, autothrusters (OMG! Autothrusters!), ignored terrain on the table... but the guy had no clue how to fly or how to play the list. I dreaded the list because I felt it was just about the strongest list at the tournament. Even with bad moves on his part, the game was a slug fest, and Kaa'To got so, so lucky. My opponent just could not kill him, and those two attack dice he had won me the game. LOL

Game Three: This was where things went south. I'd played this guy one time before when he brought his group to our club for "casual" game night. That night, he was name dropping "John Smith won nationals with a Stress Boat list that I helped him make" and "The entire game is shifting to a stress throw game with free actions where..." basically, for whatever reason, trying to impress everyone with his knowledge and whatever. He had custom plastic movement sticks, fancy card sleeves, a Battlefoam carry case, tablet with all his cards/rules/etc on it (didn't even know there was such a thing, like War Room for Waramchine/Hordes)- in other words, a very serious X-wing player. That night, he ran 5 Y-wings? All with Twin Laser Turrets, and some kind of stress inducing mechanics. When I asked him about it, he said "Oh, this is my casual list, it won Regionals in Texas (or somesuch) by Bob Smith (or whoever). I ran 3 named T-70's with Poe, 'Ello Nasty, and Blue Ace. I kinda kicked his butt, and he was a bit upset. I was asking a lot of questions about his build, because I couldn't understand how it worked, and it was like my first X-wing game in like, 3 months? Flash forward to this tournament two weeks later: He was running Dash Rendar in the YT-2400 that was fully loaded (Push the Limit, Heavy Laser Cannon, Kyle Katarn, Outrider, Engine Upgrade), and a named A-wing that was moving 5, boosting, getting a free focus, and then a stress token to make a barrel roll. It had a bunch of crap on it that gave him 5 evade dice at range 3, and a "free evade" (Autothrusters! OMG! LOL), and an empty Z-95. So we are playing, and I'm asking a lot of questions, because I just don't get how his Dash ship is moving- normal move, turbo boost, barrel roll ignoring obstacles and debris, and shooting twice with his turret (Heavy Laser Cannon). On top of that, he has that A-wing zipping all over the place. I'd never seen ships do the stuff his list was doing. He said something along the lines of "This is the new meta list for Rebels". After a couple turns, I misjudged a turn and ran into an obstacle. I asked him "OK, so I lose my action and what else? I'm sorry, but they are different from Star Trek" and he explodes on me! "I don't believe that for a second! You know more about this game than you let on! You are such an ! From the first time I met you, you have been an to me! It's so frustrating to play against you! I hate the way you play!" Raising his voice and the whole nine yards. So yeah, everyone in the room turns and looks at us. I apologize profusely, I thank him for telling me, because I didn't know, and now that I know, I can change my behavior, and I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. This is a game with little toy ships, and we both should be having fun. If we aren't having fun, then we are doing something wrong, and things need to change. So after that, I made very few comments, stopped asking questions, and just basically ran my ships into obstacles, other ships, shot at whatever, and losing the game. Afterwards, I asked if I could see his list, and he waffled, so I asked if he could explain the whole Dash Rendar ship to me, and he did. But...

So I know I can be a difficult opponent, especially when I don't understand how something works. Its just that in my experience (30+ years of gaming), when something seems to be too good to be true, it is. Usually because my opponent is playing it wrong (intentionally or otherwise). This guy's build was so meta, so out there playing on so many different levels, that I really had no clue what he was doing or how he was pulling it off. Is this how a "big tournament" plays? I mean, we only had11 players, but if I'm supposed to just know everything about the game at one of the bigger tournaments...? Why did my opponent give me the stink eye when I asked to see the maneuvers that a YT-2400 could make? I mean, in Star Trek, it's full disclosure. If I ask "Can that ship make a green hard right 3" or "can I see the maneuver dial/card for that ship?" it's no big deal. When I asked this guy, it was like I made some huge, unspoken social faux pa for X-wing. When I ask "What does Autothrusters do?" and he gives me a sour look like I'm just supposed to know., and his reply is short and clipped... So apparently, I'm a poor X-wing player for asking questions about how a list works, or about a specific rule, praising my opponent when he gets a good roll or does something awesome, and for making comments like "Wow, that's a powerful build. I'm not sure what I should do against it...". If I make a bad roll, I'm like "Come on! Really? 4 dice and all eyeballs?!?!" When I see my opponent make a move I don't understand and say "That's interesting! What are you up to? Why would you move there?" out loud- I'm not expecting an answer, they are more rhetorical questions, talking to myself like that helps me work through difficult problems.

If I attend a big tournament (like I was planning to at Gencon), am I supposed to play like a robot, never asking any questions or making any comments, or talking at all beyond "I'm shooting at that ship"? Win or lose, am I supposed to just shake hands and move on to my next game? Really? And if the meta for X-wing has grown as esoteric as this guy has led me to believe, then I'm pretty sure I want to quit playing X-wing.

Don't have a ton of time so I can't go to in-depth with a response, but from briefly skimming through your post there, it seems to me you have been cheated a few times. For example, the second game with the Punishing Ones. They cannot take autothrusters, at all, nor am I aware of anything that lets them ignore obstacles. At least you won that one. Also, 5 Y-wings do not fit into a 100 point list, especially with TLTs, and the stress bot is unique, so you can only have one in a list. Dash does all that crazy maneuvering, but I have no idea how or where your opponent was getting the idea he gets to shoot his turret twice. Even if he had gunner (which he didn't) it only allows a primary weapon attack, and with the Outrider title that's not possible.

That last guys sounds like a jerk, tbh. You are free to look at upgrade cards and pilot cards to see what does what, there shouldn't be a problem there. I'm not quite sure on the exact rules on looking at maneuvers on ship dials you aren't familiar with, but I imagine it's also pretty open.

From what I understand, if you take Engine Upgrade you can then take Autothursters? I'm not sure, the tournament so burned me out that I didn't/don't want to even look up all the cards and how they work. About the 5 Y-wings- maybe it was 4? It was a lot of Y-wings, and one of them kept handing out a stress token to one of my ships and he would gain a stress token as well. So... ?

Maybe I'm confusing the Heavy Laser Cannon with the Twin Laser Cannon? One of them shoots twice but only does 1 point when it hits, the other shoots 4 dice, with conversions?

Engine upgrades is a modification, so is Autothrusters, you can only take one or the other.

Four Y's sounds more like it, I also assumed you meant they all had the stress bot. My bad.

Dash cannot take the Twin Laser Turret, so I'm still at a loss as to where your opponent got the shooting twice thing with Dash from. I'm sure others will weigh in at some point.

Read your whole post, and it looks like you indeed ran into "that guy". Please don't let those kind of folks dissuade you from an otherwise awesome and great game.

"That guy" cannot grasp that someone has a life outside of Xwing, and can't believe that you haven't memorized all dials, posted in all the right forums, or bought 4 of every ship ever so you have every upgrade card in multiples.

You're well within your rights to ask what certain cards/ships do, and at least the way I play, I'm glad to explain how it works and why it's good.

As for your specified questions:
1. Autothrusters can only be taken on ships with the "boost" action already in their action bar, since Engine Upgrade and Authothrusters occupy the same upgrade slot. It's one or the other. Dash Rendar cannot take Autothrusters.
2. The Twin Laser Turret does indeed shoot twice, but only causes one damage if it goes unevaded.
3. There is an astromech upgrade (R3-A2) that allows you to incur stress to cause stress on ships you shoot at. This is what your opponent had on his Y-wing. Typically referred to as "stressbot".
4. The Dash Rendar YT-2400 allows him to ignore obstacles during movement and activation phase, so basically he flies wherever he wants, and is allowed to perform actions when on an asteroid (which you normally cannot do).
5. Dash Rendar builds usually take a Heavy Laser Cannon, which is a 4-shot cannon, where all your crits turn into regular hits. It sounds bad at first glance, but causing damage is important, and the ability to shoot with 4 red dice is huge.
6. Your "that guy" opponent was likely also using "Push the Limit" elite pilot talent, which allows you to take 2 actions instead of one, and then incurring a stress. Performing two actions is HUGE in this game, and on Dash does indeed allow him to boost and barrel roll in the same turn.

Bottom line, is if you weren't sure how any of this worked, your opponent should calmly explain it to you instead of losing his s--t. That just isn't cool.

Also, I think you're equating the meta of list composition with the people that play it, which is totally incongruous. There are people who can play the "popular" and "powerful" lists and be totally awesome guys. The "meta" is NOT "that guy". Also, a list is only as good as it is piloted.

Hope this helps, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here? It sounds like you guys just didn't get along. Are you asking us to take sides?

Some of the builds you described are suspect, but since you are openly unfamiliar with many of the upgrades, it seems reasonable that you just remembered them wrong.

Tamwulf wrote:So I know I can be a difficult opponent, especially when I don't understand how something works.

If you know you can be a difficult opponent, then it seems like you might have answered your own question. There is nothing wrong with being inexperienced at a game, but at some point people will probably expect you to take charge and go read up on the game, rather then depending on other people to keep explaining things.

You've kind of done it in this topic too... Rather than asking about something specific that you can't find an answer to, you've come here with a bunch of vague questions, that you haven't researched, and some half-remembered lists, and you seem to be expecting us to piece it together for you?

If you're interested in learning the upgrades, then I would suggest sites like http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build which has all the ships and possible upgrades, and it's all laid out in a way that makes them easy to read. If you're not interested in learning the game, then that's completely your decision, but if you're going to insist on turning up to tournaments not knowing stuff, then you probably shouldn't be surprised if you get beaten by things you don't understand, and rub people the wrong way.

 Smacks wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're asking here? It sounds like you guys just didn't get along. Are you asking us to take sides?

Some of the builds you described are suspect, but since you are openly unfamiliar with many of the upgrades, it seems reasonable that you just remembered them wrong.

Tamwulf wrote:So I know I can be a difficult opponent, especially when I don't understand how something works.

If you know you can be a difficult opponent, then it seems like you might have answered your own question. There is nothing wrong with being inexperienced at a game, but at some point people will probably expect you to take charge and go read up on the game, rather then depending on other people to keep explaining things.

You've kind of done it in this topic too... Rather than asking about something specific that you can't find an answer to, you've come here with a bunch of vague questions, that you haven't researched, and some half-remembered lists, and you seem to be expecting us to piece it together for you?

If you're interested in learning the upgrades, then I would suggest sites like http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build which has all the ships and possible upgrades, and it's all laid out in a way that makes them easy to read. If you're not interested in learning the game, then that's completely your decision, but if you're going to insist on turning up to tournaments not knowing stuff, then you probably shouldn't be surprised if you get beaten by things you don't understand, and rub people the wrong way.

Despite what I spoke about above, this is also a valid set of points.

Xwing Companion App is pretty decent when you're on the go for learning. They even have the "card rules" on their.

Sounds like that second list was a kind of action economy style list with can get a bit tricky to follow rules wise, in any game if you don't understand what or how the other player is doing something just ask, or as last resort call a judge, nobody playing honest should blow up at this

That said if you do go to a big tourny it might be an idea to brush up on the rules and the latest FAQ, along with at least some idea of what the popular lists / upgrades do

Finally don't let one fool put you off, I've been playing X-Wing since the start and in all the tornys and friendly play I've never encountered 'TFG', a blessed change from 40k or MTG

 Smacks wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're asking here? It sounds like you guys just didn't get along. Are you asking us to take sides?

Some of the builds you described are suspect, but since you are openly unfamiliar with many of the upgrades, it seems reasonable that you just remembered them wrong.

Tamwulf wrote:So I know I can be a difficult opponent, especially when I don't understand how something works.

If you know you can be a difficult opponent, then it seems like you might have answered your own question. There is nothing wrong with being inexperienced at a game, but at some point people will probably expect you to take charge and go read up on the game, rather then depending on other people to keep explaining things.

You've kind of done it in this topic too... Rather than asking about something specific that you can't find an answer to, you've come here with a bunch of vague questions, that you haven't researched, and some half-remembered lists, and you seem to be expecting us to piece it together for you?

If you're interested in learning the upgrades, then I would suggest sites like http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build which has all the ships and possible upgrades, and it's all laid out in a way that makes them easy to read. If you're not interested in learning the game, then that's completely your decision, but if you're going to insist on turning up to tournaments not knowing stuff, then you probably shouldn't be surprised if you get beaten by things you don't understand, and rub people the wrong way.

Please don't take this the wrong way like I'm being confrontational to you and calling you out. These are my honest feelings and more than anything, I'm curious if this has happened to others.

The question is, "Have you ever played against that guy that takes X-Wing way too seriously and is so invested in the meta that he is not fun to play against?" See the tittle of the thread. I felt like I had to get this story off my chest because I found myself thinking more and more about it since May 15th (when the tournament was played).

This tournament was promoted as a fun, casual event with some cool swag and prizes for everyone. If this is how folks act at a casual tournament, then no, I never want to play in a "Regional" or "National" tournament.

It's kind of like a Chess Master playing an unranked chess player, then throwing a screaming fit that the unranked player can't play well. This is a game of little plastic toy starships from a make believe fantasy setting that drew heavily from western and eastern mythology. It's interesting to me, and I like to play it, but no, I am not going to spend hours and hours combing the interwebs for information about build lists, strategy and tactics, and the current meta for the game. I play far, far too many other games to devote that kind of time to any one game. See, the thing is, despite me not knowing what most of the builds were or how they played, I was still kicking and taking names. In that third round, I intentionally threw that game because I didn't want to see my opponent get all butt hurt about his little plastic toys. No, I am not asking anyone to take sides here. It's more of an attitude thing of casual play vs. tournament play, and I thought X-wing was more of a casual game, and it turns out I am wrong. There is a "right way" to play the game that is not in the rule book or tournament rules, and I've been playing the game the "wrong way".

...haven't researched and half-remembered lists..

. is correct. That third guy so soured me on ever playing X-wing again, that I really don't even want to look at the game anymore. I don't think I've ever had someone blow up at me like that during a game, and I guess another question I have, due to my limited X-wing experience, is this typical behavior? If I don't understand something, am I expected not to ask questions about it? That I should spends hours and hours researching the meta and rules? That if a player shows up with custom maneuver templates, a fancy case with a bunch of medals on it he has won, and a list full of stuff I've never seen or heard of, name drops all the "famous" players he has met, that I should just reach across the table and shake his hand saying "Good game"? LOL

if you're going to insist on turning up to tournaments not knowing stuff, then you probably shouldn't be surprised if you get beaten by things you don't understand, and rub people the wrong way

What stuff am I supposed to know? Debris are not described at all in the main rule book. And considering the 126,000 results I just received from Google when I typed in "where are the debris rules for x-wing?", I'm not the only one who doesn't know anything about them. So another question then: What should I know before going into an X-wing tournament?

Thank you for the link to http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build. That website is awesome! I can't believe it exists; I would have thought FFG would be throwing a fit about it like GW. LOL

I guess another question I have, due to my limited X-wing experience, is this typical behavior? If I don't understand something, am I expected not to ask questions about it? That I should spends hours and hours researching the meta and rules? That if a player shows up with custom maneuver templates, a fancy case with a bunch of medals on it he has won, and a list full of stuff I've never seen or heard of, name drops all the "famous" players he has met, that I should just reach across the table and shake his hand saying "Good game"? LOL

To answer your question, no, this is not typical behavior.

HOWEVER: Addressing the last sentence there, you appear to be holding some of your own preconceived bias towards people with "all the fancy things", and in this case, your bias was confirmed. I am one of those players who has fancy templates, tokens, and carrying cases. I like nice things. I'm fortunate to have the disposable income -and an understanding spouse- that allows me to do so. But don't pigeonhole people like myself because of one guy who just is way more into the game than you are.

I encourage you not to give up on the game, because it's a great game. As a competitive 40k player, Xwing is a breath of fresh air in comparison both because of the game AND because of the people.

Equally, X Wing templates and tokens are cardboard! If you play a lot, it makes sense to replace them with acrylic!

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're asking here? It sounds like you guys just didn't get along. Are you asking us to take sides?

Some of the builds you described are suspect, but since you are openly unfamiliar with many of the upgrades, it seems reasonable that you just remembered them wrong.

Tamwulf wrote:So I know I can be a difficult opponent, especially when I don't understand how something works.

If you know you can be a difficult opponent, then it seems like you might have answered your own question. There is nothing wrong with being inexperienced at a game, but at some point people will probably expect you to take charge and go read up on the game, rather then depending on other people to keep explaining things.

You've kind of done it in this topic too... Rather than asking about something specific that you can't find an answer to, you've come here with a bunch of vague questions, that you haven't researched, and some half-remembered lists, and you seem to be expecting us to piece it together for you?

If you're interested in learning the upgrades, then I would suggest sites like http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build which has all the ships and possible upgrades, and it's all laid out in a way that makes them easy to read. If you're not interested in learning the game, then that's completely your decision, but if you're going to insist on turning up to tournaments not knowing stuff, then you probably shouldn't be surprised if you get beaten by things you don't understand, and rub people the wrong way.

Please don't take this the wrong way like I'm being confrontational to you and calling you out. These are my honest feelings and more than anything, I'm curious if this has happened to others.

The question is, "Have you ever played against that guy that takes X-Wing way too seriously and is so invested in the meta that he is not fun to play against?" See the tittle of the thread. I felt like I had to get this story off my chest because I found myself thinking more and more about it since May 15th (when the tournament was played).

This tournament was promoted as a fun, casual event with some cool swag and prizes for everyone. If this is how folks act at a casual tournament, then no, I never want to play in a "Regional" or "National" tournament.

It's kind of like a Chess Master playing an unranked chess player, then throwing a screaming fit that the unranked player can't play well. This is a game of little plastic toy starships from a make believe fantasy setting that drew heavily from western and eastern mythology. It's interesting to me, and I like to play it, but no, I am not going to spend hours and hours combing the interwebs for information about build lists, strategy and tactics, and the current meta for the game. I play far, far too many other games to devote that kind of time to any one game. See, the thing is, despite me not knowing what most of the builds were or how they played, I was still kicking and taking names. In that third round, I intentionally threw that game because I didn't want to see my opponent get all butt hurt about his little plastic toys. No, I am not asking anyone to take sides here. It's more of an attitude thing of casual play vs. tournament play, and I thought X-wing was more of a casual game, and it turns out I am wrong. There is a "right way" to play the game that is not in the rule book or tournament rules, and I've been playing the game the "wrong way".

...haven't researched and half-remembered lists..

. is correct. That third guy so soured me on ever playing X-wing again, that I really don't even want to look at the game anymore. I don't think I've ever had someone blow up at me like that during a game, and I guess another question I have, due to my limited X-wing experience, is this typical behavior? If I don't understand something, am I expected not to ask questions about it? That I should spends hours and hours researching the meta and rules? That if a player shows up with custom maneuver templates, a fancy case with a bunch of medals on it he has won, and a list full of stuff I've never seen or heard of, name drops all the "famous" players he has met, that I should just reach across the table and shake his hand saying "Good game"? LOL

if you're going to insist on turning up to tournaments not knowing stuff, then you probably shouldn't be surprised if you get beaten by things you don't understand, and rub people the wrong way

What stuff am I supposed to know? Debris are not described at all in the main rule book. And considering the 126,000 results I just received from Google when I typed in "where are the debris rules for x-wing?", I'm not the only one who doesn't know anything about them. So another question then: What should I know before going into an X-wing tournament?

Thank you for the link to http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build. That website is awesome! I can't believe it exists; I would have thought FFG would be throwing a fit about it like GW. LOL

Page 14, under obstacles, directly beneath asteroids. Right there in plain sight. There are a lot of squadron builder sites, as well as the x wing wiki page which is real nice. You can download pdf rules from the wiki page.

 Dave-c wrote:


Page 14, under obstacles, directly beneath asteroids. Right there in plain sight. There are a lot of squadron builder sites, as well as the x wing wiki page which is real nice. You can download pdf rules from the wiki page.

With that reference, I went looking.

Is it in the old "Learn to Play" rules (the ones with the T-65 X-wing on the front)? Nope.

Is it in the new "Learn to Play" rules (with the T-70 on he front)? Nope.

It's listed in the "X-Wing Rules Reference" on page 14. I'll have to check to see if that book came with my core set or not. I don't recall seeing it.

So there ya go. If you read the "Learn to Play" book, it doesn't tell you all the rules. Huh. Fancy that! So I guess if you really want to play X-wing, you need to go online and get all the rules, and go to a third party website to see all the cards. I know, I'm being petty now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Equally, X Wing templates and tokens are cardboard! If you play a lot, it makes sense to replace them with acrylic!

Oh yeah, that makes sense. However, I ran into an issue when I was playing Star Trek Attack Wing. Did you know that the two systems have different size maneuver templates? IIRC, all the easy 1,2, and 3 turns are longer and more of an angle in X-Wing then they are in Star Trek. Interesting, eh? That's why I suspect all third party acrylic templates now. The ones from FFG and Wizkids I never question.

It's in the core set. It's not the learn to play one, it's the rules reference one, from the t70 core set. The learn to play is like a quick start Guide and is not the rule book.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. However, I ran into an issue when I was playing Star Trek Attack Wing. Did you know that the two systems have different size maneuver templates? IIRC, all the easy 1,2, and 3 turns are longer and more of an angle in X-Wing then they are in Star Trek. Interesting, eh? That's why I suspect all third party acrylic templates now. The ones from FFG and Wizkids I never question.

It's still a good idea for Xwing players to check their third-party templates, and I suspect most of us do just that.
FFG isn't in the clear either, some of the prize support range rulers from the 2016 Store Championships were off a bit.

Also FFG is really quick and concise to get faq rules out there and easily available. Unlike another company whose name sounds like lames porkchop.

 Tamwulf wrote:
The question is, "Have you ever played against that guy that takes X-Wing way too seriously and is so invested in the meta that he is not fun to play against?"

Words like "fun" and "too seriously" are quite subjective. Lots of people here have acrylic templates and hard cases, so what? I have those things, but I didn't buy them so I could appear superior to other people at tournaments. They're just useful if you play X-wing a lot... Plastic templates are like $5, and you don't have to worry about someone spilling beer over them.

 Tamwulf wrote:
but no, I am not going to spend hours and hours combing the interwebs for information about build lists, strategy and tactics, and the current meta for the game. I play far, far too many other games to devote that kind of time to any one game.

Well it sounds like maybe you don't like X-wing that much, but that doesn't mean people who enjoy it more are taking it "too seriously".

 Tamwulf wrote:
It's more of an attitude thing of casual play vs. tournament play, and I thought X-wing was more of a casual game, and it turns out I am wrong. There is a "right way" to play the game that is not in the rule book or tournament rules, and I've been playing the game the "wrong way".

I think there is room for all sorts of people. Some people just want to play casual with a few friends, others like to tour the tournaments and get more involved. Neither approach is "wrong", but if you want to have fun then you need to find opponents who are on the same page as you, this is true for all games, not just X-wing. How many times have we seen Fluff Bunnies versus WAAC discussed in 40k?

 Tamwulf wrote:
If I don't understand something, am I expected not to ask questions about it? That I should spends hours and hours researching the meta and rules?

You don't have to spend hours doing anything, no one is forcing you to play. A lot of us happen to enjoy reading about and discussing X-wing, if you find that hard work then (as I mentioned before) maybe you just don't like X-wing that much.

X-wing isn't any different to any other game, when it comes to asking questions. A lot of questions have already been asked and answered, you will meet people who are happy to help you, and you will meet people who just expect you to know stuff. There isn't a hard and fast rule... At a demo game: expect help. At the world championship: expect to have to know stuff. For everything in between: use your discretion.

 Tamwulf wrote:
What stuff am I supposed to know? Debris are not described at all in the main rule book. And considering the 126,000 results I just received from Google when I typed in "where are the debris rules for x-wing?", I'm not the only one who doesn't know anything about them. So another question then: What should I know before going into an X-wing tournament?

Debris didn't exist when the original core set was printed, they were included as part of later expansions. You can find the rules with those expansions, and also in the rules reference book, which is included with the latest core set, and available online as a free PDF. That includes rules for all the expansions, up to (I think) wave 7.

I don't see how this is any worse than 40k, where the rules are fragmented throughout a bunch of expensive codex books...

If you want to go play at ANY tournaments (not just X-wing), then it is "strongly suggested" that you familiarise yourself with the most up to date rules and FAQs, and research some of the common lists you're likely to encounter (basically all the stuff you can't be bothered to do). Failing that: turn up and hope your opponent has a lot of patience.

Lots of great feedback, and so what I'm getting here is that tournament play is no place for a casual player.

As a side note, I was winning that game against Mr. Pro Meta until he exploded on me, at which point I let him win the game so he wouldn't be all butt hurt about a scrub player like me beating him. He was a guest in my clubhouse, so I respected his comments and apologized, and then I let him win the game.

So here is a little more background:

This was a local, "closed" casual tournament that him and his friends got invited to. When my clubhouse runs a tournament like this, it's typically invite only, and 21 and over, because we drink a lot of beer, talk a lot of , and have a good time. This was made explicitly clear to him and his friends. None of us in the club care about trophies, medals, or awards, and none of us show up with custom foam bags with medals pinned to the side- that's a sure way to get laughed out of the clubhouse. We don't keep track of winning and losing, because it's about having fun. We play games, and all games. Warhammer 40K, Warmachine/Hordes, Age of Sigmar, Star Trek Attack Wing, Infinity, Battletech, Magic, Force of Will, heck, we even just started a Pokemon league for the of it. We play Zombicide, Dicemasters, Munchkin- name the board game, and it's probably been played or will be if someone brings it up. RPG's too. We have a private membership of a little over 30 people, and we rent out a large space we pay for, where we have five 8x4 foot custom made tables and terrain for all the games we play, a beer fridge, and a soda fridge. We also have a hobby area off to the side, and storage/library for all our gaming stuff. During the summer, we break out the BBQ, grill, and play games. Now, please don't assume that we just goof off and play all half- . More than a few of our members have worked for, or play tested, "in the industry". I don't know X-wing that well, but I sure as know all about Warmachine/Hordes, Warhammer 40K, and Star Trek Attack Wing.

So maybe I was being a little deceptive in my post, and more just trying to gauge the reaction of the X-wing community about that meta guy. So now I understand the expectations of a "professional X-Wing Player", and what to expect at a big, national event. All I have to say is That guy that yelled at me? He won't be welcomed back to the clubhouse. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior, especially when you are a guest at a private club.

 Tamwulf wrote:
With that reference, I went looking.

Is it in the old "Learn to Play" rules (the ones with the T-65 X-wing on the front)? Nope.

Is it in the new "Learn to Play" rules (with the T-70 on he front)? Nope.

It's listed in the "X-Wing Rules Reference" on page 14. I'll have to check to see if that book came with my core set or not. I don't recall seeing it.

So there ya go. If you read the "Learn to Play" book, it doesn't tell you all the rules. Huh. Fancy that! So I guess if you really want to play X-wing, you need to go online and get all the rules, and go to a third party website to see all the cards. I know, I'm being petty now.

The "Learn to Play" book isn't the rule book, the Rules Reference book is. Also, you don't need to go to a third party site to access it; it can be found on FFG's website with all the other X-Wing stuff. You'll also find the Epic rules, tournament rules, the latest FAQ, and some other supplemental stuff.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. However, I ran into an issue when I was playing Star Trek Attack Wing. Did you know that the two systems have different size maneuver templates? IIRC, all the easy 1,2, and 3 turns are longer and more of an angle in X-Wing then they are in Star Trek. Interesting, eh? That's why I suspect all third party acrylic templates now. The ones from FFG and Wizkids I never question.

Yes, the soft turns are different and you shouldn't suspect acrylic templates any more than you would the flimsy cardboard ones. However, under tournament rules, you're allowed to ask to share one set of any components (dice, range ruler, movement templates).

 Tamwulf wrote:
Lots of great feedback, and so what I'm getting here is that tournament play is no place for a casual player.

Causal players should still know the basic rules. I've played this game since the beginning and even now there are some pilots and upgrades that I'm not that familiar with. That kind of stuff is okay because no one expects every person to have encyclopedic knowledge of everything in the game. However, simple stuff like the effects of debris clouds should be common knowledge if you're playing in any kind of tournament.

As a side note, I was winning that game against Mr. Pro Meta until he exploded on me, at which point I let him win the game so he wouldn't be all butt hurt about a scrub player like me beating him. He was a guest in my clubhouse, so I respected his comments and apologized, and then I let him win the game.

Stop saying "meta" because I don't think you really understand what that means. For starters, Super Dash isn't really the meta anymore. He's a strong ship but has some glaring weaknesses.

So here is a little more background:

This was a local, "closed" casual tournament that him and his friends got invited to. When my clubhouse runs a tournament like this, it's typically invite only, and 21 and over, because we drink a lot of beer, talk a lot of , and have a good time. This was made explicitly clear to him and his friends. None of us in the club care about trophies, medals, or awards, and none of us show up with custom foam bags with medals pinned to the side- that's a sure way to get laughed out of the clubhouse. We don't keep track of winning and losing, because it's about having fun. We play games, and all games. Warhammer 40K, Warmachine/Hordes, Age of Sigmar, Star Trek Attack Wing, Infinity, Battletech, Magic, Force of Will, heck, we even just started a Pokemon league for the of it. We play Zombicide, Dicemasters, Munchkin- name the board game, and it's probably been played or will be if someone brings it up. RPG's too. We have a private membership of a little over 30 people, and we rent out a large space we pay for, where we have five 8x4 foot custom made tables and terrain for all the games we play, a beer fridge, and a soda fridge. We also have a hobby area off to the side, and storage/library for all our gaming stuff. During the summer, we break out the BBQ, grill, and play games. Now, please don't assume that we just goof off and play all half- . More than a few of our members have worked for, or play tested, "in the industry". I don't know X-wing that well, but I sure as know all about Warmachine/Hordes, Warhammer 40K, and Star Trek Attack Wing.

Okay, so you guys sound like elitist tools in your own special club. You may not be, but that's how you're coming across now. You should really drop the notion that wanting to win =/= having fun. I want to win every game I play and I always play to the best of my ability but it's okay if I lose.

I don't care about trophies but if I happen to win one, I'd be happy about it. I use the stuff I've earned at tournaments (like official acrylic range rulers and alternate art cards) because I earned them and they look cool. I have hard cases for all my X-Wing stuff, a tournament case, a tournament tray, and every single card is sleeved and stored in a binder... but 95% of the games I play are at my house or one of my friend's houses. The only time I don't play at home are for monthly tournament at our FLGS (when I can make it, which is difficult because of my family and work) or some larger tournaments like Store Championships.

So maybe I was being a little deceptive in my post, and more just trying to gauge the reaction of the X-wing community about that meta guy. So now I understand the expectations of a "professional X-Wing Player", and what to expect at a big, national event. All I have to say is That guy that yelled at me? He won't be welcomed back to the clubhouse. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior, especially when you are a guest at a private club.

Frankly I don't blame you; I wouldn't invite him back either. Also, in the future just be honest and don't be deceptive.

And stop saying "meta guy."

 Tamwulf wrote:
I am not going to spend hours and hours combing the interwebs for information about build lists, strategy and tactics, and the current meta for the game.

Then don't go to tournaments.

Debris are not described at all in the main rule book.

Yes they are.

If this is how folks act at a casual tournament, then no, I never want to play in a "Regional" or "National" tournament.

Never encountered anything like that. I've had games in game night kits and even tournaments where opponents have needed some explanation, and it's only fair to talk them through stuff. I've certainly never (fortunately) encountered a player like that.

Everyone has a first game in a first tournament. There is no requirement for you not to beat them, or even to 'go easy on them' (it's a tournament, after all) but you should at least take time to explain what you're doing and how, and not be a bell-end about it.

I always start by telling someone my list and clearly running through the shenanigans it can do. I've had a game turn right before because a player has (entirely accidentally) forgotten to mention an upgrade card* and I don't want to do that to someone in an important game.

I mean, in Star Trek, it's full disclosure. If I ask "Can that ship make a green hard right 3" or "can I see the maneuver dial/card for that ship?" it's no big deal. When I asked this guy, it was like I made some huge, unspoken social faux pa for X-wing. When I ask "What does Autothrusters do?" and he gives me a sour look like I'm just supposed to know.

This isn't 'the appropriate behaviour for x-wing' - it's not the appropriate behaviour for any game. Nothing justifies shouting or effing and jeffing at someone. And yes, I've played plenty of people who've played attack wing and X-wing, so I'm perfectly used to someone who might seem like they know what they're doing in terms of maneuver templates, actions and tokens, but still miss something key on terrain, or collisions**, or whatever.

I'll admit to finding the 'rules reference' thing annoying sometimes. FFG has a standard practice (also in Armada and Forbidden Stars, so probably most of their stuff) that you have a thinned-down 'Learn To Play' in game-sequence-order and a 'Rules Reference' in alphabetical order. You'll only really refer to the latter when a question comes up. If you've never played with debris markers before (they don't come in the core set), there's no reason you should know. But if someone's brought debris markers rather than rocks, it's their responsibility to make sure you know what they do.



Also, I think the 'meta' comment is just being used as a (disparaging) phrase, not seriously. Someone who slavishly obsesses over 'the metagame' is often missing the point. Paul Heaver (a multiple worlds champion) is not someone you want to see across a table because he's very good at building lists that work in 'the meta' but also because he's ridiculously good at playing X-wing and you can garuantee whatever squad he turns up with he's practiced with to a tee. X-wing is not like 40k. You can't shoot at whatever you like and you can't move wherever you want. If you know what you're doing with a squad, it's far, far more dangerous than anyone's latest 'thing off the interwebz'.

The one time we've had a person at a game night kit who's spent time explaining how squad XYZ is invincible because it can A, then B, then C, and it's unstoppable, he ended up having the first game against probably the best player in our club. His response was essentially a polite "That's nice. Look forward to the game then. My squad is exactly as it looks: I have eight basic TIE fighters, no upgrades."

You can probably guess what happened next (hint: it wasn't exactly the rebel alliance's finest hour).

I am no meta player at all, and more often then not, the lists posted are in Greek to me. PTL? Fat Han? U-Boat? I have no idea what they are talking about.

I always dislike people using shorthand - not everyone's 'fat han' or 'super dash' is quite the same. The essentials, yes, but the details often matter - Dash Rendar is usually seen with Engine Upgrade, Push The Limit, and Outrider. The last two slots - the cannon and crew - can either be a Heavy Laser Cannon (which gets 4 dice but can't fire at range 1) or the Mangler Cannon (which only gets 3 dice but can) and can be Kyle Katarn (get an extra focus when removing stress) or Kanan Jarrus/Nien Numb (who improve what moves he can do and still remove the stress). That leaves four combinations which significantly alter how the ship plays, as it changes whether it has a blind spot and how unpredictably that blind spot will move.


* Chewbacca crew. My own fault for not noticing the card from across the table, I guess, but it was a bloody epic game with 400 points of stuff on the table, it was the last shots of the game, and I asked "which of these two K-wings is more heavily damaged?" because if I concentrated fire and got lucky I could kill one of them. I didn't ask "which will take more hits to kill?" and we didn't realise one was the Chewbacca one until halfway through shooting. I got the one I picked down to no shields and then suddenly two extra hit points popped out of nowhere, costing me the game....

** D&D attack wing lets you still attack on colliding, if people haven't played it, because most primary attacks are melee strikes.

 Tamwulf wrote:
So there ya go. If you read the "Learn to Play" book, it doesn't tell you all the rules. Huh. Fancy that! So I guess if you really want to play X-wing, you need to go online and get all the rules, and go to a third party website to see all the cards. I know, I'm being petty now.

The "learn to play" book is just that: for learning to play. It teaches you the basic rules as a new player, using the basic ships from the core set. It is not intended to be a complete rulebook, or anything more than a quick 5-minute demo for your first game.

The "rules reference" book contains the actual rules to the game, and is included in the core set. Perhaps you misplaced your copy of it, and should have looked a little harder before coming here with your outrage over how unfair everything is?

It is totally ok to ask to look at ship dials. Every ship expansion has a little chart that comes in the paperwork that shows the maneuvers the ship can do and it says that you're supposed to have this information available to both players. It's public information by RAW.

locarno24 wrote:
I always start by telling someone my list and clearly running through the shenanigans it can do.

Agree on the first half, disagree on the second. You are obligated to tell your opponent what your list contains, but I see no obligation to explain how its various interactions work. Part of being good at X-Wing is being able to look at a list and anticipate what your opponent is going to do with it. If I have clever tricks in my list I'm certainly not going to give them away until I'm in a position to beat you with them!

But if someone's brought debris markers rather than rocks, it's their responsibility to make sure you know what they do.

I disagree with this. Debris fields are part of the core rules, it is your responsibility as a player to know how they work. If you don't then you have only yourself to blame if your ignorance costs you a game. It's not my job to teach you how basic game mechanics work.

If you know what you're doing with a squad, it's far, far more dangerous than anyone's latest 'thing off the interwebz'.

Except this is a false dilemma. A squad "off the interwebz" with a player that knows what they're doing with it is far more dangerous than a good player with a random pile of ships and upgrades that they took because they stubbornly refuse to take popular lists.

Yeah, I would not consider debris something that people should assume needs to be explained. Debris came out with wave 5 in November 2014. It's not exactly new.

It also IS in the reference guide that comes in the new starter set, so it is definitely core rules at this point.

locarno24 wrote:
I always start by telling someone my list and clearly running through the shenanigans it can do. I've had a game turn right before because a player has (entirely accidentally) forgotten to mention an upgrade card* and I don't want to do that to someone in an important game.

Sharing your list with your opponent is standard practice and so is explaining what a card does, but giving a detailed explanation on how everything interacts is not.

If you've never played with debris markers before (they don't come in the core set), there's no reason you should know. But if someone's brought debris markers rather than rocks, it's their responsibility to make sure you know what they do.

This couldn't be any further from the truth. First of all, the rules regarding debris are readily accessible to every player. It is never your responsibility to explain the fundamental rules of the game to a person in a tournament.

Also, I think the 'meta' comment is just being used as a (disparaging) phrase, not seriously. Someone who slavishly obsesses over 'the metagame' is often missing the point. Paul Heaver (a multiple worlds champion) is not someone you want to see across a table because he's very good at building lists that work in 'the meta' but also because he's ridiculously good at playing X-wing and you can garuantee whatever squad he turns up with he's practiced with to a tee. X-wing is not like 40k. You can't shoot at whatever you like and you can't move wherever you want. If you know what you're doing with a squad, it's far, far more dangerous than anyone's latest 'thing off the interwebz'.

I know Paul and I can tell you that what you said isn't really true. Paul is not X-Wing Jesus and not everything he does guaranteed to be successful. While he is no doubt a very good player, I've seen him drop tournaments just like anyone else.

I always dislike people using shorthand - not everyone's 'fat han' or 'super dash' is quite the same. The essentials, yes, but the details often matter - Dash Rendar is usually seen with Engine Upgrade, Push The Limit, and Outrider. The last two slots - the cannon and crew - can either be a Heavy Laser Cannon (which gets 4 dice but can't fire at range 1) or the Mangler Cannon (which only gets 3 dice but can) and can be Kyle Katarn (get an extra focus when removing stress) or Kanan Jarrus/Nien Numb (who improve what moves he can do and still remove the stress). That leaves four combinations which significantly alter how the ship plays, as it changes whether it has a blind spot and how unpredictably that blind spot will move.

Using shorthand just makes explaining things easier for anyone who has played the game for a while. The nicknames come from prototypical builds but there can always be variation to them so at this point they're more like concepts as opposed to something set in stone.

I've been that new guy. At one point, I told my opponent, on our fifth game, to pick his dial back up, scramble it, then let me look at it so I could figure out which manoeuvre he could perform (he didn't have the little cutout). He understood what I wanted to do and gladly did it.

Then I had this opponent last tournament who told me flat out that he only played tournaments, rarely regular games. He expected me to remind him what his cards did, and when to use Crack Shot and Glitterstim. I politely told him that I wasn't playing for him, but against him.

At one point, yeah, people play to win. The spirit of sportsmanship however behooves you to stay polite, even courteous, because nothing spoils a game like hissy fits and bragging. If you go into every game not expecting to win, but you want to forge a narrative at all cost, then that's your thing, but you can't expect a vast majority of people to share that viewpoint. You sound like a decent fellow, but maybe jumping into a tournament was not the best of ideas?

locarno24 wrote:
Also, I think the 'meta' comment is just being used as a (disparaging) phrase, not seriously. Someone who slavishly obsesses over 'the metagame' is often missing the point.

I feel there have been a lot of unnecessary disparaging comments, "little plastic toys" etc... I'm not completely lacking in sense of humour, and I have no illusions that people won't poke fun at us for being big kids, playing with dolls/toys. But jokes aside, there is genuinely a distinction between miniatures and toys, which a long time member of a war gaming forum (e.i. Tamwulf) should be familiar with. So I feel like he's deliberately choosing that phrase to be condescending. If I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I might say it's just a rhetorical device to emphasise someone taking a game too seriously, but on the other hand... If a new member came to this board, and basically said (paraphrasing): "Hey! I can't really be bothered with X-wing, LOL where are the rules? It's just little baby toys anyway! Also, question: are all X-wing players D-bags?"... I'd probably say that person was trolling.

The meta comment is just silly, especially when his first game was against Palp Decimator, with (I'm guessing) Whisper, and that guy was "great opponent, had a lot of fun".

 Smacks wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Also, I think the 'meta' comment is just being used as a (disparaging) phrase, not seriously. Someone who slavishly obsesses over 'the metagame' is often missing the point.

I feel there have been a lot of unnecessary disparaging comments, "little plastic toys" etc... I'm not completely lacking in sense of humour, and I have no illusions that people won't poke fun at us for being big kids, playing with dolls/toys. But jokes aside, there is genuinely a distinction between miniatures and toys, which a long time member of a war gaming forum (e.i. Tamwulf) should be familiar with. So I feel like he's deliberately choosing that phrase to be condescending. If I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I might say it's just a rhetorical device to emphasise someone taking a game too seriously, but on the other hand... If a new member came to this board, and basically said (paraphrasing): "Hey! I can't really be bothered with X-wing, LOL where are the rules? It's just little baby toys anyway! Also, question: are all X-wing players D-bags?"... I'd probably say that person was trolling.

The meta comment is just silly, especially when his first game was against Palp Decimator, with (I'm guessing) Whisper, and that guy was "great opponent, had a lot of fun".

Yeah, the more the story comes out from the OP, the more it feels like some kind of trolling.
Leaving out the whole "private club" aspect that apparently makes fun of competitive players leads me to believe we're not getting the full story about the game he played against "that guy". Further, admitting that you can be a "difficult opponent" is another red flag.

Side note: I find it amusing that the OP's YV666/HWK list was beating a Dash/Jake/Z (assumed Jake) list, before he apparently threw the game. I've played enough games with my Dash list against similar builds to know that once you get Dash (and/or Jake) behind the YV666, that game is all but over.

My first opponent was a great opponent because we laughed a lot, cracked jokes, congratulated each other on a great move or die roll, and if I had a question about something, he readily answered. I lost that game because all I needed in the last combat round was 3 hits, and I had a 3 die attack from Bossk on his Z-95, and a 3 die attack from Kaal'to. Bossk rolled 3 focus on his attack, and Kaal "stole" the focus from Bossk and he rolled 3 blank dice. And that's when time was called. All he had left was a Decimator with 3 hull, and was suffering from multiple crits. That game was great because my opponent was personable, easy going, and fun.

That third game- His Dash was so deathly afraid of Bobba Fett taking his Heavy Laser Cannon? that he spent the entire game as far from Bossk as he could. He "fed" me his Z-95 and A-wing in an attempt to sucker me into the middle of the map where all the obstacles/debris were. While I had no idea what he was doing with Dash, it was pretty obvious he wanted me in the obstacles/debris, and that was the one place I was NOT going to go. Never do what your opponent expects or wants, right? He took out my Hwk-290, and in the trade, I got his A-wing and Z-95. That left me with an unwounded Bossk and Kaal'to. (he lost a shield IIRC). vs. his untouched Dash. I'd agree that if he got behind me it was going to get much more difficult for Bossk, so I wasn't going to let that happen. It's all about maneuver and using fire arcs, etc. etc. I had the initiative, and with the very good arcs on the YT-666, it was just about impossible for him to get behind me and stay behind me. I think I had a good chance at Dash- all I needed to do was use Bobba Fett to take his turret, and then he would basically have no teeth. My third opponent had all the personality of a wet fish. No jokes, no comments. All communication was about the game. When I said "Wow, Dash gets to turboboost, barrel roll, gain a focus, ignore terrain, and he has a 360? That is bonkers good! What the heck am I going to do against that?!?! I've never even seen that ship before!" He takes it as I'm being sarcastic and condescending to him, when I had never seen that ship before, and I had no idea a ship in X-Wing could maneuver like that! Yet this is a common meta build, right? And it gets played a lot, so he took my compliment in a negative way. He assumed that I was sandbagging, and that I was far more experienced in X-Wing then I led on. This guy was obviously a good player judging by all the medals on his bag, so I guess he just could not stomach me playing so well? He underestimated me? He got angry and upset because he thought it should be an easy win? He didn't like the idea of an old man drinking a beer and joking with the next table over? All I got from the guy when he raised his voice and started yelling at me was that I was a -hole, and I was so frustrating to play against. So I put my beer down, apologized profusely, and said "Thank you for telling me! Now that I know that, I can change my behavior so you can enjoy this game more. This is a game of little plastic space ships. We play games to have fun. If one of us is not having fun, then we are doing something wrong. So what can I do to make this game more fun for you?" He mumbled something about not being an , then he apologized for yelling.

So he didn't really tell me what I could do to make the game more fun for him, so I threw my beer away, didn't say anything besides what needed to be said about the game, quit talking to other people, and threw the game. What else should I have done? Obviously the guy was frustrated, angry, and upset. Maybe my comment about little plastic space ships made him more upset- I dunno. For anyone here that gets upset about that comment- that's what X-Wing is. It's a game of little plastic space ships. We play games to have fun, and if we are not having fun, then whats the point of playing the game? To win? Win a game of little plastic space ships? If that's fun in your book, then who am I to stand in your way? I don't know what to say to someone that takes offense to that. In the greater scheme of things, X-Wing means nothing to me. Watching my father be eaten alive by cancer over six months- that meant something. Flying on a C-17 with six flag draped coffins in the cargo hold- that meant something. Walking by the memorial of several pairs of boots, M-4s, and helmets every day in Afghanistan meant something. Watching my niece being born- that meant something. Building a house for a family in need, and meeting that family- that meant something. Listening to the stories of WWI, Korean, and Vietnam Vets at the American Legion Hall on Memorial Day meant something. So is X-Wing ever going to mean that much to me? In comparison to all the stuff I've done in my life? How can a game of little plastic space ships ever matter that much to me?

Elitest club... I guess you could say that. The club was started because the founders got tired of dealing with kids at the local game store, and dealing with the overbearing and condescending owner. It's a "closed" club because we have a beer fridge, and if there was ever an underage drinking incident, the club would be closed and someone would be getting into a lot of trouble. We also live in a college town, and there has been issues and incidents with some of the college students in the club. We welcome any adult over 18 to come and play, but we want to make sure they are a right "fit" for us. We just want a place to get away from family/work/whatever for a bit, play some games, and have fun. I can see how people would think that's elitist, but it works for us.

We downplay the accomplishments of many of the members because many of the members are very accomplished. What do you say to someone that brags about their painting skills when you have club members who are Golden Daemon winners? How do you react to someone that says "I'm a play tester for such and such game" when most of the club is a play tester for some game or another? We've had people walk into the club and try to throw their weight around before, name dropping, or showing off awards or whatever. I guess it turns them off when we just smile or laugh at them. If that's the definition of elitist, then I guess we are.

I guess I failed to articulate in a meaningful way how I felt about the entire situation. You guys pointing out about the club as being a bunch of elitist D-bags- I never thought of it that way or looked at it from that perspective, but yeah, I can see that now. I hope I shed some light on why we are like that, but it does give me and the officers something to ponder that I will bring up at our next meeting.

If the club decides to have another tournament, or I decide to attend a tournament somewhere else, I'll put a little more time and effort into the rules and FAQ, and "brush up" on the latest meta lists. I do feel a little intimidated and put out by the fact that the expectation of tournament play is so much higher then casual play. It just seems like an awful lot of time, effort, and work to play a game- not unlike 40K with the never ending paint que and poor rules. Hey! At least X-Wing has that going for it- clear, concise rules. And I don't have to paint anything unless I want to! Even if I've only played a handful of games compared to many here, I've never gotten into a rules dispute like I have in 40K. LOL

My intention was never to be "Trolling", and I'm sorry if it appears I was. Like I said before, I kinda needed to get this off my chest, and to just put out a feeler of what it takes to be in a X-Wing tournament. Ya'll have given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it. Thank you! And have a great weekend!