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Hey guys, I'm looking for the best way to run Death Company squads. Is it in a unit of 5 with jump packs, Bolters and a Chaplain? Bolt pistols and CCWs? Do I want to invest in power weapons? Now the real trick is this: sometimes I want to run them as Blood Angels successors using the BA Codex. Other times I'll be using them as Raven Guard successors with the Marine Codex. So, I need a way to equip them where I can use them as something from the standard Marine 'dex.

At a glance, it doesn't look like Command Squads and Honour Guard have the options for jump packs. Assault Squads and Vanguard Vets obviously can't take bolters. It seems a compromise will be difficult to work out.

5 DC with jump pack and one powerfist. I prefer CC weapons to bolters so I minimize risk of shooting myself out of assaulting. Seems like that might work for you.

Bolters aren't doing much damage to really shoot yourself out of assault, though. It also allows contribution if they can't charge anyway. Plus with Rage and Furious Charge, the extra attack from the pistol is overkill.

If they can't charge, they're probably running a d6 anyway. With a 5 man squad, 20 WS 4 s5 attacks and 4 fist swings isn't actually that heavy, and you can easily fail to wipe say... a group of 5 tac marines on the charge. (In fact that's the average result.) You will want those extra swings on the off-turn so that hopefully you can finish them off and move on.

You mostly want to stay in combat for a turn though. That way they're safe from shooting and free to charge on your next turn.

And you also want out of the combat on the off-turn so you can go tag another unit. Being stuck in for another combat on your next turn and THEN getting out is even worse than the other two results.

The bp-chainsword version can charge a 5 man tac squad, (a gladius staple,) eat 4 men, and then eat the last on the off turn. The bolter-equipped squad eats 3 on the charge, and only 1 on the next turn. More often than not, they will be stuck in eating that last marine on your next turn.

Also against many competitive targets, virtually nothing is overkill, so the more s5 attacks the better. Tides, wraithguard, wraithknights, stormsurges, twc, wulfen, necron squads of anything, rear armor of vehicles, especially now that only one guy can stick a krak grenade on it...

All those situations I'd rather have the s5 attack in combat than the bolter shots, also it adds to the combat result to see if you can sweep an entire cron squad or riptide, whereas wounds from the bolters don't help with that.

Now the bolter's failure is complete. It's bad even on relentless marines.

I have the Bolter on my Power Fist Death Company (I do the 1/5 Power Fist). I sincerely doubt an additional S4/AP5 shot is going to shoot me out of range. They go on the Power Fist because I am not losing out on any additional attacks anyway.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I have the Bolter on my Power Fist Death Company (I do the 1/5 Power Fist). I sincerely doubt an additional S4/AP5 shot is going to shoot me out of range. They go on the Power Fist because I am not losing out on any additional attacks anyway.

Actually I think my powerfist guys have them too.

Martel732 wrote:
Now the bolter's failure is complete. It's bad even on relentless marines.

How ironic, right? Bolters are supposed to be revered weaponry in the Imperium Yet, on average, they'll be less useful than the extra swing you'd get out of having a spare knife. Just shows you that bringing a gun to a knife fight may be a bad idea!

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I have the Bolter on my Power Fist Death Company (I do the 1/5 Power Fist). I sincerely doubt an additional S4/AP5 shot is going to shoot me out of range. They go on the Power Fist because I am not losing out on any additional attacks anyway.

Actually I think my powerfist guys have them too.

It is the only time I would do that too. Might as well since he loses the least from doing it.

I run 5 guys, 4x BP/CCW, 1x PF/Bolter.

Sometimes I run 8 guys, 2x PF/Bolter, 6x BP/CCW. In that case, I paid a point for the Sanguinary Priest extra weapon and my OCD tendancies kicked in so that I would get exactly 1500 points.

If you're looking to add a Chaplain/other form of support characters, you need larger units to make the most out of the support. But I find small squads work best.

As for Power Weapons, weight of attacks is sufficient. Sanguinary Guard do Power Weapons better because of MC.

If you're wanting to run them as RG as well, you need to look at the Vanguard Vet or Assault Marine loadouts and see what they can take, kitting the DC out that way. Otherwise you can always magnetize.

pistols and CCW. Extra attacks are always better for an assault unit. Besides, what are you hoping to kill with 5 extra boltgun shots?

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Hey guys, I'm looking for the best way to run Death Company squads. Is it in a unit of 5 with jump packs, Bolters and a Chaplain? Bolt pistols and CCWs? Do I want to invest in power weapons? Now the real trick is this: sometimes I want to run them as Blood Angels successors using the BA Codex. Other times I'll be using them as Raven Guard successors with the Marine Codex. So, I need a way to equip them where I can use them as something from the standard Marine 'dex.

At a glance, it doesn't look like Command Squads and Honour Guard have the options for jump packs. Assault Squads and Vanguard Vets obviously can't take bolters. It seems a compromise will be difficult to work out.

Like most people have already said, 5 man squads with 1 power fist per squad is good. Give the power fist guy a bolter rather than a pistol. Because DC's are relentless, he can still fire it and charge (even rapid fire). He also won't lose out on an extra attack by not taking the pistol because his power fist is unwieldy, so he wouldn't get an extra attack anyway. This isn't so much about gaining more shots before you assault, but more about giving you options before you assault (which is more obvious with bigger squads.)

If you want to take a Chaplain too, I'd highly recommend Lemartes. He offers so much more than a standard Chaplain. The only problem with Lemartes is that he will take up an extra elite slot.

Here's a quick comparison between the new(ish) Death Company Chaplain, compared to Lemartes.

New guy - 120pts
WS5 - BS4 - S4 - T4 - W2 - I4 - A2 - Ld10 - SV3+
WARGEAR:
• Power armour
• Inferno pistol
• Crozius arcanum
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Jump pack
• Rosarius
SPECIAL RULES:
• Furious Charge
• Independent Character
• Zealot

(You could reduce the points slightly if you take a normal Chaplain with a jump pack and bolt pistol.)
________________________________________________________________________________

Lemartes - 130pts
WS5 - BS4 - S4 - T4 - W2 - I6 - A2 - Ld10 - Sv3+
WARGEAR:
• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• The Blood Crozius
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Jump pack
• Rosarius
SPECIAL RULES:
• Feel No Pain
• Furious Charge
• Independent Character
• Rage
• Relentless
• Zealot

Guardian of the Lost: Lemartes can only join a Death Company Squad.
Fury Unbound: The first time Lemartes loses a Wound, add 1 to his Strength and Attacks
for the remainder of the game.
________________________________________________________________________________

So the benefits of taking the standard Death Company Chaplain are that he's 10 points cheaper, has an inferno pistol, can join any jump infantry squad, and is a HQ choice.

The benefits of taking Lamartes is that he's initiative 6 (not 4). He has feel no pain, rage & relentless. He has a master-crafted Crozius. He gains +1 to his strength and attacks when he loses a wound.

For those reasons alone I would seriously consider taking him. I'm sorry if I've missed anything here.

Alternatively, you could just take Astorath if you have the spare points.

I prefer 7 man squad's as it gives you a few redshirts for the run in. JP and 1 fist.

Why do DC need Redshirts? They are ALL Redshirts.

I know that but getting there with 5 instead of 3 has been a massive help for me with them. 5 man squads die too easily.

jet pack dual wielding thunder hammers. btu seriously 5-8 men 1 pf maybe a lightning claw pair if you have the points to spare and going with 8

My recommendation:

Power weapons + pistols. Two of those pistols should be handflamers.

Throw in a death company HQ with a jump pack.

Remember that they already come with 2 attacks. Pistol + power weapon raises it to 3. On the charge, rage + charge bonus is 5 attacks per model.

Keep the model count low so that you don't wipe the target squad in your own turn and leave yourself a sitting duck on your opponent's phase.

You might consider running some of them with regular chainswords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's my proposal:

Death Company Squad 1:

5 death company with boltpistols and chainswords, except for 2, who have handflamers. Throw in Astorath.

Death Company Squad 2:

5 death company with boltpistols and chainswords, except for 2, who have handflamers. Throw in Lemartes.

Death company Squad 3:

5 death company. 2 have handflamers and chainswords. 2 have a boltpistol and chainsword. 1 has a boltpistol and power axe.

Traditio wrote:
My recommendation:

Power weapons + pistols. Two of those pistols should be handflamers.

Throw in a death company HQ with a jump pack.

Remember that they already come with 2 attacks. Pistol + power weapon raises it to 3. On the charge, rage + charge bonus is 5 attacks per model.

Keep the model count low so that you don't wipe the target squad in your own turn and leave yourself a sitting duck on your opponent's phase.

You might consider running some of them with regular chainswords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's my proposal:

Death Company Squad 1:

5 death company with boltpistols and chainswords, except for 2, who have handflamers. Throw in Astorath.

Death Company Squad 2:

5 death company with boltpistols and chainswords, except for 2, who have handflamers. Throw in Lemartes.

Death company Squad 3:

5 death company. 2 have handflamers and chainswords. 2 have a boltpistol and chainsword. 1 has a boltpistol and power axe.

Don't do any of this. They don't need overpriced character support. They don't need hand flamer. Keep them cheap. That's the cardinal rule of the BA codex. Nothing we have can take a hit, so you need to minimize costs.

Martel732 wrote:Don't do any of this. They don't need overpriced character support. They don't need hand flamer. Keep them cheap. That's the cardinal rule of the BA codex. Nothing we have can take a hit, so you need to minimize costs.

Why not the handflamer? It combines a flamer template (and you're likely going to be charging infantry anyway) with the pistol special rule.

You don't need the Hand Flamer because you're putting enough attacks on the charge for it to not matter if you're facing larger squads.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Don't do any of this. They don't need overpriced character support. They don't need hand flamer. Keep them cheap. That's the cardinal rule of the BA codex. Nothing we have can take a hit, so you need to minimize costs.

Why not the handflamer? It combines a flamer template (and you're likely going to be charging infantry anyway) with the pistol special rule.

Because that hand flamer could be another body somewhere. DC don't need a small amount of extra s3 ap bleh hits. Assuming they make it to the face, they have ap bleh hits for days.

5 guys, 4 with standard chainsword/bp, 1 with bolter/fist, jump packs. 140 points. Repeat for as many elite slots as you can get. That is THE way to run DC.

Pistols and power weapons are both way overcosted.

Yeah Martel is spot on more DC before trimmings. I'm still going to say 7 is best :-) 5 gets wiped too easily for me.

niv-mizzet wrote:Because that hand flamer could be another body somewhere. DC don't need a small amount of extra s3 ap bleh hits. Assuming they make it to the face, they have ap bleh hits for days.

5 guys, 4 with standard chainsword/bp, 1 with bolter/fist, jump packs. 140 points. Repeat for as many elite slots as you can get. That is THE way to run DC.

Fair enough. I still say that at least one of them should have boltpistol + power axe. 5 S6, AP 2 attacks on the charge is pretty decent, even if at I1. And it's only 15 points more expensive.

kryczek wrote:
Yeah Martel is spot on more DC before trimmings. I'm still going to say 7 is best :-) 5 gets wiped too easily for me.

It's the same idea. But the idea is that is one 5 man squad is crippled, you've got an identical intact one right behind it.

Traditio wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:Because that hand flamer could be another body somewhere. DC don't need a small amount of extra s3 ap bleh hits. Assuming they make it to the face, they have ap bleh hits for days.

5 guys, 4 with standard chainsword/bp, 1 with bolter/fist, jump packs. 140 points. Repeat for as many elite slots as you can get. That is THE way to run DC.

Fair enough. I still say that at least one of them should have boltpistol + power axe. 5 S6, AP 2 attacks on the charge is pretty decent, even if at I1. And it's only 15 points more expensive.

It's 4 S6 attacks. But if you're paying points for a Power Axe, might as well make it a Fist and give the unit the ability to double out T4 and hit Vehicles/Walkers.

s6 gets lost among all the s5 attacks, but s9 leaves it's mark.

It's 5 ST:7 attacks on the charge, and 3x ST:6 attacks in subsequent rounds of combat or if charged. Power axes are not specialist weapons, on the charge the power axe is +1 attack for 2x melee weapons (paired with the pistol), +2 attacks for Rage and is ST:7.

Don't forget, unwieldy =\= specialist weapon.

I do agree though, power fists are superior in this instance as the 10 point difference is worth the +2 higher strength at the cost of an attack.

Both weapon options are decent, but for my points I'd rather have the fist as ST:8 (9 on the charge) tends to leave quite the dent.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-