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I want to make an Astra Militarum list but I cant seem to create one I'm happy with. The truth is I'm not very familiar with how their units play out on the board and I hear conflicting information about which units are viable over others. I also have no idea whether I want to make an armored, infantry, mechanized or hybrid army (If any of those are viable). I would be nice if anyone could suggest some core units that an Imperial Guard army should have and how to expand off of them. I would be starting small points wise (Around 750) if that matters. Thanks in advance!

The three main ig lists i've seen do well are infantry backed up by psykers, mass mech and air cav.

The_Random_Ninja wrote:
I want to make an Astra Militarum list but I cant seem to create one I'm happy with. The truth is I'm not very familiar with how their units play out on the board and I hear conflicting information about which units are viable over others. I also have no idea whether I want to make an armored, infantry, mechanized or hybrid army (If any of those are viable). I would be nice if anyone could suggest some core units that an Imperial Guard army should have and how to expand off of them. I would be starting small points wise (Around 750) if that matters. Thanks in advance!

To start with:

Veterans are a popular troop choice. Normally with meltaguns. Putting them in a taurox or a chimera can't hurt.

In my experience, mechanized is the stronger of the options. Be that veterans in chimeras or mixing in an infantry platoon with transports as well.

Your HQ choice could be a Company Command Squad (Or, Lord Commissar if you're wanting to save points, more men is generally better at low point values).

I personally run my Company Command Squad as follows:

Company Commander - Plasma Pistol & Carapace Armor
3x Plasma gunner veterans
1x Medic
Carapace Armor across the board for all models.

Put them in a Chimera (or taurox, though the Chimera is hands down better in my opinion) with whatever weapons options you prefer. I like Multilaser turret and Heavy Flamer hull weapon, but that's just my preference.

Troops could be a couple of Veteran Squads, armed with 2x Meltaguns and a flamer or grenade launcher, plus Meltabombs on the Sergeant, riding in a Chimera.
(I'm one of the few people who advocate for keeping the points a little lower on this squad by subbing the third meltagun special weapon out for a cheaper grenade launcher or flamer on the squad since only 2 models can fire out of the top hatch. It still allows for the third weapon and is still at ST:6 shot with a krak grenade when they pile out of the transport. Meltabombs allow the Sergeant to swing for the fences against armored targets, etc. I also personally spring for Grenadiers to give carapace armor to the squads, but that's obviously optional since they're riding in the transport)

Lastly, you can run a Leman Russ (or two if you run the cheaper ones such as Eradicators) as your Heavy Support, or conversely, a full 3 tank battery of Wyvern tanks, though were I you I would consider a Leman Russ Extertminator with heavy bolter sponsons and a Hull Lascannon for utility, and run a single Wyvern as a second Heavy Support choice to deal with infantry. The Exterminator will be able to hurt most armor you might run up on while also being able to put a lot of shots into infantry models as well, while the Wyvern can focus on any hard-to-reach infantry or also soften up the infantry your Leman Russ might be shooting at.

Here's a basic 'Starter List":

HQ: Lord Commissar - 75 Points
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Carapace Armor, Refractor Field.

HQ: Primaris Psyker - 75 Points
Psyker Lvl 2, Laspistol, Force Weapon, Flak Armor & Refractor Field

Troops: Veteran Squad - 90 Points
1x Sergeant w/ Meltabombs, Laspistol & CCW
2x Veterans w/ Meltaguns
1x Veteran w/ Grenade Launcher (or flamer, your choice)
6x Veterans w/ Lasguns
-Chimera Transport - 65 Points
Multilaser Turret, Hull Heavy Flamer, 2x Lasgun Arrays, Smoke Launchers & Searchlight.

Troops: Veteran Squad - 90 Points
1x Sergeant w/ Meltabombs, Laspistol & CCW
2x Veterans w/ Meltaguns
1x Veteran w/ Grenade Launcher (or flamer, your choice)
6x Veterans w/ Lasguns
-Chimera Transport - 65 Points
Multilaser Turret, Hull Heavy Flamer, 2x Lasgun Arrays, Smoke Launchers & Searchlight.

Heavy Support: Wyvern Mortar Tank - 65 Points
2x Twinlinked Wyvern Mortars, Hull Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers & Searchlight

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Exterminator - 165
Twinlinked Exterminator Autocannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters, Hull Lascannon, Smoke Launchers & Searchlight

That right there is 690 points. You could easily replace the Lord Commissar with a cheaper Company Command Squad in a chimera. With the list as is, put each of the HQ choices in one of the troop chimeras and go to town.

Hopefully this is somewhat helpful. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a PM. Best of luck, and take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Why a grenade launcher or flamer instead of a third melta, Red__Thirst?

No idea why you'd ever use grenade launchers. The idea of mixing a flamer in with melta also doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I usually take 2 squads of vets, 1 plasma, 1 melta in chimerae with HHFs.

CCS with 4 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol. feth the medic, he's not going to help with anything. Again in a chimera, or a Vendetta.

Top that off with some artillery and you're set (although an extra squad of vets won't go amiss - they die pretty easily these days).

Lord Corellia wrote:Why a grenade launcher or flamer instead of a third melta, Red__Thirst?

I will preface by saying, this only goes for Chimera mounted squads. Drop squads from Valkyries, etc are all given the same kind of special weapon, be it Plasma or Melta. This is a way to try and get the most out of every point at lower point levels also, which is what I usually play (750 to 1000 points generally). Every point matters, and getting the most out of your units, while conserving points where you can at the proposed points level is a big deal in my opinion.

That said, my reasoning is this: With how I run them, these squads are going to rarely, if ever, get out of their transport unless forced to do so because of the vehicle being wrecked/exploding. So, at most, two models are going to be able to fire out of the top hatch any given turn, be they plasma gunners or melta gunners. Why spend points on having a third plasma or melta in the squad when it'll not fire that often? Even if I'm within 12" of an enemy tank, I'll rarely disembark just because, even with 4+ saves, I generally see that squad live for one turn or less against most of my opponents.
In the event I do decide to disembark, or am forced to disembark due to wrecked/explodes which is the more common scenario, then I still have the third special weapon to fire at better than lasgun stats. My preference is the Grenade Launcher, as it's cheap, fires at ST:6, AP:4, and can reach out to the same range as a Lasgun, gelling nicely with the rest of the squad. The Flamer is the other option and I do like it, especially as wall of death overwatch hits are nice on occasion. As I said, I prefer the grenade launcher for the higher strength, but will mix in a flamer sometimes depending on my mood.

Griddlelol wrote:No idea why you'd ever use grenade launchers. The idea of mixing a flamer in with melta also doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I usually take 2 squads of vets, 1 plasma, 1 melta in chimerae with HHFs.

CCS with 4 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol. F___ the medic, he's not going to help with anything. Again in a chimera, or a Vendetta.

Top that off with some artillery and you're set (although an extra squad of vets won't go amiss - they die pretty easily these days).

See above, and I do like the Heavy Flamer option as an alternative to the Flamer if I choose to run it instead of the Grenade Launcher. Also, the Medic really helps in a CCS with plasma, especially if you've got your Psyker attached to the squad (be it an Astropath, or a Primaris Psyker) and he rolls perils of the warp. That feel no pain save has saved my Psykers on more than one occasion.

As an aside, I usually run two veteran squads as well, one with plasma, one with melta as well. I just run the grenade launcher as the third weapon in the squads and it works very well here.

Just my thoughts there. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I can't accept you saying "every point counts" then proceeding to spend those points on grenade launchers. They're possibly the worst weapon upgrade available to guard.

Why would you not fire the 3rd plasma or melta? I don't understand that logic in the slightest.

Are you kidding me? They changed the fire point rules for chimerae? What an absolute, straight up nerf, to an already over-priced vehicle. I'm glad I put my guard away, this would have driven me crazy, that my favourite style of play is now 1/3 weaker.

Again with the medic, I'd rather have 2 more plasma shots. If she squad needs to kill something, a medic is dead weight and dead points. Sure it might save one gets hot every now and again, but even if you lose a man to gets hot, you still have the same fire power as the full team with the medic.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I can't accept you saying "every point counts" then proceeding to spend those points on grenade launchers. They're possibly the worst weapon upgrade available to guard.

Why would you not fire the 3rd plasma or melta? I don't understand that logic in the slightest.

Are you kidding me? They changed the fire point rules for chimerae? What an absolute, straight up nerf, to an already over-priced vehicle. Guard are fethed. Absolutely fethed. Vets in chimerae doesn't even work any more.

Again with the medic, I'd rather have 2 more plasma shots. If she squad needs to kill something, a medic is dead weight and dead points. Sure it might save one gets hot every now and again, but even if you lose a man to gets hot, you still have the same fire power as the full team with the medic.

Like I said, work with what you're given. It's not ideal, and I didn't like the Chimera nerf either of course, but if only 2 guys are going to be firing out the rear hatch, why spend full points for a third weapon that will rarely fire? Also, why waste the third weapon slot on the squad and not buy an upgrade at all? Compromise it and throw *something* on the third guy, and the grenade launcher and flamer are both cheap and allow for something better than a lasgun to fire if the squad finds itself exposed to the open air, be it by vehicle destroyed or deploying out.

I run my CCS with Carapace armor (Vostroyan Firstborn) and 4+ with a follow up 5+ FnP is surprisingly resilient to small arms fire believe it or not. I almost always have an Astropath attached and having the extra save for that model is usually a big help too. To each their own, but I like having the added resiliency over one or two (depending on range) additional plasma shots. Do what works best in your meta, of course.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I can't accept you saying "every point counts" then proceeding to spend those points on grenade launchers. They're possibly the worst weapon upgrade available to guard.

Why would you not fire the 3rd plasma or melta? I don't understand that logic in the slightest.

Are you kidding me? They changed the fire point rules for chimerae? What an absolute, straight up nerf, to an already over-priced vehicle. Guard are fethed. Absolutely fethed. Vets in chimerae doesn't even work any more.

Again with the medic, I'd rather have 2 more plasma shots. If she squad needs to kill something, a medic is dead weight and dead points. Sure it might save one gets hot every now and again, but even if you lose a man to gets hot, you still have the same fire power as the full team with the medic.

Like I said, work with what you're given. It's not ideal, and I didn't like the Chimera nerf either of course, but if only 2 guys are going to be firing out the rear hatch, why spend full points for a third weapon that will rarely fire? Also, why waste the third weapon slot on the squad and not buy an upgrade at all? Compromise it and throw *something* on the third guy, and the grenade launcher and flamer are both cheap and allow for something better than a lasgun to fire if the squad finds itself exposed to the open air, be it by vehicle destroyed or deploying out.

I run my CCS with Carapace armor (Vostroyan Firstborn) and 4+ with a follow up 5+ FnP is surprisingly resilient to small arms fire believe it or not. I almost always have an Astropath attached and having the extra save for that model is usually a big help too. To each their own, but I like having the added resiliency over one or two (depending on range) additional plasma shots. Do what works best in your meta, of course.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm unconvinced that a grenade launcher or Flamer offers a better quality alternative for the five points than a BS4 lasgun. If my Vets get busted out of their chimera, I am 100% more likely to want to make use of the melta/plasma guns against a target that Grenade Launchers, Lasguns OR flamers won't do anything to, and much of the time I'm even more likely to have those upgrades make me less effective. I'm likely to be out of range for the flamer, or to get fewer than the average ~2 S3 hits with my grenade launcher. So I'm really unlikely to ever want either of those.

If my vets pop out, my first question is: Is there something within 18" I could shoot with melta guns to squeeze some points/threat out of these vets.

Then my second question is: Can I get to an objective with 6" move +D6" run, screwing shooting altogether?

Then finally, my third question is: Is there a soft target within 30" I can cause slight damage to with S3 AP- weaponry?

I'd rather save the five points.

In defence of the flamer and HF: Overwatch from the top hatch is effective.
I use 2 Veteran squads with 2 plasmas and a HF and 1 or 2 points permitting melta squads with 3 melta guns. My CCs is either stuffed to the gills with plasma or with a LC and a MoO commanding blobs or Artillery.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I can't accept you saying "every point counts" then proceeding to spend those points on grenade launchers. They're possibly the worst weapon upgrade available to guard.

Why would you not fire the 3rd plasma or melta? I don't understand that logic in the slightest.

Are you kidding me? They changed the fire point rules for chimerae? What an absolute, straight up nerf, to an already over-priced vehicle. I'm glad I put my guard away, this would have driven me crazy, that my favourite style of play is now 1/3 weaker.

Again with the medic, I'd rather have 2 more plasma shots. If she squad needs to kill something, a medic is dead weight and dead points. Sure it might save one gets hot every now and again, but even if you lose a man to gets hot, you still have the same fire power as the full team with the medic.

Not to mention he's throwing melta bombs on the sarge too. At that point you've already paid for the 3 rd melta or are almost to a 3rd plasma.

And why you wouldn't want a 3rd plasma is beyond me, because odds are one of your plasma Gunners will melt himself before they even leave the transport. Not to mention if the Chimera explodes odds are you're in trouble and need all the firepower you can get.

I'd also call into question bothering with a medic on the command squad. Carapace increases your odds to survive almost as much and then you can take a 4th plasma too.


To the OP, I'm not going to bother trying to tell you a specific list to build to, because IG have changed a lot and honestly you don't want me telling you what the top competitive lists are because i don't know. Instead I'll give you advice on how to build your army so you have options and have gear that won't suck.

1st off, grenade launchers, mortars, and heavy bolters are useless. Use them as trading fodder or cool stuff to give guys for an objective marker. Seriously, they're that bad. Unless a model gets them for free, don't bother. Grenade launchers in particular are bad enough that I would consider buying one a straight up disadvantage as that's a 10th of the way to another guardsman squad. If you bought more than one that's points that should've gone to better special weapons like meltas or plasma. One melta or plasma will beat it's points in grenade launchers every time.

2nd, meltas, plasma, autocannons, and lascannons are your bread and butter. Use them, love them, cherish them. They're your main killing power no matter what army you build so make sure you have plenty. For a starting IG player I would recommend 9 plasmas and meltas each and 3 each of autocannons/lascannons (I.e. one heavy weapon box, with the weapons options magnetized) The reason why I recommend a flat number is IG players are notorious for picking sides when it comes to plasma vs melta and autocannons vs lascannons. It usually comes down to preference, so you'll want to have both as you figure out which works for you.

3rd flamethrowers, demo charges, shotguns, and CCW weapon upgrades are very situational, but can be incredible when used correctly. You won't need many of each, maybe enough to outfit a single squad tops, but they're nice to have. More than anything else with IG, they require you to build a squad around the weapon if you want any use out of them. However, a 3 demo charge special weapon squad is a beautiful thing to witness dropped out of a Valkyrie, and x4 flamer PCS's are excellent as a cheap way to mess up deep striking units.


You see, IG, more than any army in the game, relies on being brutally efficient with how you build your army. Every unit has one job and it is ruthlessly trimmed down till it fits that roll. For example, you would never throw a power sword on a veteran squad with plasma rifles. There's just no point, that squad is here to shoot things. You shouldn't be wasting a 1/4 of the squad's base cost for something that will only be used once in 10 games, and probably not even do anything worthwhile when it does get used.

If you can't point at a unit and immediately tell me why it's there, and why every piece of gear they have is crucial to their job, it doesn't belong. And if at any point you say "it might do X" instead of "it will do X" that option or unit doesn't belong either. In most armies, an odd power weapon or extra bit of gear doesn't really matter in the long run. But with IG, even 10pts is quite a way to another infantry squad or vehicle. IG die so quickly there's no other real way around it.

Focus on a good variety of cheap, efficient units that have a clear goal, and you'll be much happier for it. The moment a unit has more than 3 different gear options on it something has gone horribly wrong.

The_Random_Ninja wrote:
I want to make an Astra Militarum list but I cant seem to create one I'm happy with. The truth is I'm not very familiar with how their units play out on the board and I hear conflicting information about which units are viable over others. I also have no idea whether I want to make an armored, infantry, mechanized or hybrid army (If any of those are viable). I would be nice if anyone could suggest some core units that an Imperial Guard army should have and how to expand off of them. I would be starting small points wise (Around 750) if that matters. Thanks in advance!

My strong suggestion is to write down a list of roles you have to fill, and coast through the codex to find the best answer so you dont get flat footed against any particular thing. The IG codex has answers for almost everything, but they tend to be good at THAt thing and no other so a hybrid list is generally not a bad move. Over emphasizing on one size or another isn't so great of an idea, although sheer numbers can be a good move just becasue removing that much IN TIME is no given.

List ought to include at minimum the following:

A unit that can reliably drop a Wraith Knight. Generally its Lascannons, which generally means a blob squad with maxed out lascannons using the Bring it Down order.

Anti-AV 14

Anti Transport fire (usually a less expensive item than the aformentioned)

Minimal Anti-Air

Bullet hoses to deal with hordes

High end shots to deal with MEQ and TEQ units.

Speed for scoring objectives.

speed bumps for stalling charges.

A reliable way to Linebreak at the ened of games

Something preferably Objective Secured for Home base objectives.

Look, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with how I build my lists, or the choices I make. I know it's not the 'conventional' way to do it, but it works for me in my meta, so why are you all so up in arms over it?

Does the grenade launcher suck compared to a Plasma Gun or Meltagun? Sure, it's not nearly as good, but it's also a half to a third the cost of either of those other weapon options and it's a DAMN sight better than the Lasgun.

I play at 1000 points or sometimes lower fairly regularly. A combination of not having a ton of time to get games in, and having several people in the area with new armies who are just starting into the hobby. As I implied in my opening post, this kind of thing lends itself well to a small force where points matter and utility can be crucial. Saving 5 points on a weapon here or there allows for a better upgrade on another part of the army, or lets you have an option for the sergeant that you otherwise might not have been able to fit in.

Lastly, and in closing, I like the grenade launcher. Just because you think it's trash doesn't mean it's useless. Do I run them a lot? No, but as an extra assault weapon that can reach out and hit something it works pretty well. You run your army how you want, I'll do the same. Deal?

Gotta love how some folks think that just because someone else's opinion is different from yours, it must mean that person is either a.) stupid; b.) wrong; or c.) both.

You don't like grenade launchers, great! Don't run 'em. In my experience they can do work, and are cheap on top of that, so why not consider them or at least present the option to someone and let them make their own decision based on what they want for their army?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Lastly, and in closing, I like the grenade launcher. Just because you think it's trash doesn't mean it's useless. Do I run them a lot? No, but as an extra assault weapon that can reach out and hit something it works pretty well. You run your army how you want, I'll do the same. Deal?

That's the spirit!

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Gotta love how some folks think that just because someone else's opinion is different from yours, it must mean that person is either a.) stupid; b.) wrong; or c.) both.

And that's the problem in this case - a standard guardsman with a grenade launcher (10pts) is quanitifiably worse than 3 conscripts (9pts) and only ocassionaly ties with 2 regulars (10pts) against:
T5 3+
Tau In Cover - fun fact, it is actually worse than three conscripts without rapid fire at 5+ cover with 72 points per kill against 54.
MEQ
TEQ
(stats provided by mathhammer-o-matic)

aka, 'non guardsman armies under standard operating procedures' and only excels against t5 and t6s4, or as it's known in modern times, 'kataphron destroyers who can kill you from the other side of the table'. The pathetic thing is t3s4, or tau in the open are actually dropped faster by the conscripts by a 6% margin.


So while 'stupid' is improper, misinformed may be apt

The grenade launcher is 5pts less than a melta. Just spend the extra 5 points for a weapon that will actually do something.

I don't think any of the 6th or ed 7.0 codices can reliably kill a wk. IG included.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Look, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with how I build my lists, or the choices I make. I know it's not the 'conventional' way to do it, but it works for me in my meta, so why are you all so up in arms over it?

Does the grenade launcher suck compared to a Plasma Gun or Meltagun? Sure, it's not nearly as good, but it's also a half to a third the cost of either of those other weapon options and it's a DAMN sight better than the Lasgun.

I play at 1000 points or sometimes lower fairly regularly. A combination of not having a ton of time to get games in, and having several people in the area with new armies who are just starting into the hobby. As I implied in my opening post, this kind of thing lends itself well to a small force where points matter and utility can be crucial. Saving 5 points on a weapon here or there allows for a better upgrade on another part of the army, or lets you have an option for the sergeant that you otherwise might not have been able to fit in.

Lastly, and in closing, I like the grenade launcher. Just because you think it's trash doesn't mean it's useless. Do I run them a lot? No, but as an extra assault weapon that can reach out and hit something it works pretty well. You run your army how you want, I'll do the same. Deal?

Gotta love how some folks think that just because someone else's opinion is different from yours, it must mean that person is either a.) stupid; b.) wrong; or c.) both.

You don't like grenade launchers, great! Don't run 'em. In my experience they can do work, and are cheap on top of that, so why not consider them or at least present the option to someone and let them make their own decision based on what they want for their army?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Because working in your meta is not the same as being a good general choice. And you would objectively improve your lists by not using grenade launchers.

Tanks. You want Leman Russ Exterminators as these can reliably deal with most targets baring heavy armour. Add in a couple of Battle Tanks to deal with MEQ blobs in the open.
If you want something heavier then do not even think about bothering with the Demolisher - it is an overpriced lump of junk, instead bring in the Thunderer assault gun from Imperial Armour.

Anti tank is next. You really want Veteran troops with Melta Guns. Try to have at least three of four sections of these each with three Melta Guns. To get them places alive you will want a decent transport. Sadly, the Guard only have access to the Taurox (ugly, overpriced and utterly terrible in game) or the Chimera (Classic, still overpriced, but performs slightly better for its cost). Take Chimeras.

Completely bypass the so called 'Elites' section of the book unless you are a shameless masochist and, unless you are selecting a few Armoured Sentinels to support your infantry in the place of the vastly overpriced HWS, bypass the Fast Attack selectors too. There are better ways to spend your points.

For dealing with Infantry in cover you will want Leman Russ Eradicators. Have a couple handy just in case - they work wonders against cover dependent Infantry like Scouts or (if they live that long) Tau.

At this stage also consider a squadron of Wyverns as these are easily the best unit within the book and will shred most soft targets with ease.

Finally, pick up your HQ. Dont be a div, leave the Lord Commissar at home and bring a Company Command Section with a MoO and a Tank Commander (NOT Pask) for one of your tank troops.

The best IG lists I frequently run into have no Russ hulls at all. I would consider skipping this iconic tank because of the current vehicle rules.

the one that ignores cover is awesome sauce for the cost.

 Jancoran wrote:
the one that ignores cover is awesome sauce for the cost.

The Eradicator? Yeah, it's pretty good. I personally prefer it's bigger, meaner brother the Hellhammer...

Yeah Eradicators are the bees knees for anti general troop and things that depend on cover saves.

What you want to get also depends on what you really want to accomplish with the army.

If you are just going for wins, then 1) go for a different army 2) prepare to get basically every other IOM codexs to ally in with. and or 3) MIN MAX ALL THE THINGS.

Otherwise get what you want that looks cool and have fun building and converting a LOT of dudes and tanks.

But general things you cant go wrong with are
pask in a punisher
Magnatized lemons
Vendettas
Vets with 3 of the same weapons. 90% of the time Melta or plasma, leave the flamers for everyone else
and if you are willing, Conscripts with a commissar or priest

you are basically going to play for holding objectives hard.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
the one that ignores cover is awesome sauce for the cost.

The Eradicator? Yeah, it's pretty good. I personally prefer it's bigger, meaner brother the Hellhammer...

Sure but my Stormsurge is a cautionary tale in why that isn't the best thing to do at tournaments. I nuked a Stormlord before it moved one inch in the last tournament and killed 8 of the 9 Kataphons inside it. So there was the game. the eggs and the baskets issue. I say that not to brag but just to say that there is a reason that many folks would tell you that Super heavies aren't all they are cracked up to be in competitive play.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah Eradicators are the bees knees for anti general troop and things that depend on cover saves.

Also: its higher STr and also, it's useful against things like Jetbikes because not only does AV 14 laugh at jetbikes, but there's no 2+ cover saves for those Jetbikes either! So the Eradicator is an excellent unit.

the new IG Artillery Formation is incredibly good as well. basilisks were never so terrifying. So as ignores cover shenanigans go, while not as reliable as the Eradicator, it sure packs a punch when it works!

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
the one that ignores cover is awesome sauce for the cost.

The Eradicator? Yeah, it's pretty good. I personally prefer it's bigger, meaner brother the Hellhammer...

Sure but my Stormsurge is a cautionary tale in why that isn't the best thing to do at tournaments. I nuked a Stormlord before it moved one inch in the last tournament and killed 8 of the 9 Kataphons inside it. So there was the game. the eggs and the baskets issue. I say that not to brag but just to say that there is a reason that many folks would tell you that Super heavies aren't all they are cracked up to be in competitive play.

True and true. I was just saying from a rule of cool perspective.

yeah from a rule of cool perspective, its hard to argue.

hybrid themes I think would be optimal. Veterans, PCS & CCS go in Chimeras. The Infantry Squads, if you choose to use them, go without. Why? 'Combat Squadding'
If playing objectives, taking a bunch of small squads is optimal as they all would have obj secured and it overloads your opponent's target priorities. If playing KPs, take one massive one. Put a Commissar in a single squad, and a vox caster in another. you get a toolbox in the first instance and a cohesive unit in the second.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Look, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with how I build my lists, or the choices I make. I know it's not the 'conventional' way to do it, but it works for me in my meta, so why are you all so up in arms over it?

Does the grenade launcher suck compared to a Plasma Gun or Meltagun? Sure, it's not nearly as good, but it's also a half to a third the cost of either of those other weapon options and it's a DAMN sight better than the Lasgun.

I play at 1000 points or sometimes lower fairly regularly. A combination of not having a ton of time to get games in, and having several people in the area with new armies who are just starting into the hobby. As I implied in my opening post, this kind of thing lends itself well to a small force where points matter and utility can be crucial. Saving 5 points on a weapon here or there allows for a better upgrade on another part of the army, or lets you have an option for the sergeant that you otherwise might not have been able to fit in.

Lastly, and in closing, I like the grenade launcher. Just because you think it's trash doesn't mean it's useless. Do I run them a lot? No, but as an extra assault weapon that can reach out and hit something it works pretty well. You run your army how you want, I'll do the same. Deal?

Gotta love how some folks think that just because someone else's opinion is different from yours, it must mean that person is either a.) stupid; b.) wrong; or c.) both.

You don't like grenade launchers, great! Don't run 'em. In my experience they can do work, and are cheap on top of that, so why not consider them or at least present the option to someone and let them make their own decision based on what they want for their army?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Hey whatever works for you. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just stating what I've seen proven every single time I've ever used them.

If a newbie asks for advice, I'm not going to lie to him and say "oh yeah Grenade Launchers are awesome". Because they aren't. I've made several attempts to use them, and never found them to do anything that an equivalent points in plasma, melta, or flamers didn't do better. If I want to kill tanks, two meltas have better odds than 4 grenade launchers. I want to fight Terminators or something like a Tau battlesuit, a plasma or two is going to be a better investment than equivalent cost in Grenade launchers. And if I want to fight hordes, 4 Flamers will absolutely leave grenade launchers in the dust. Even sniper rifles can do more than a grenade launcher can, and it's only 2 pts, especially if you see a lot of monstrous creatures. To give you an idea, I have more confirmed kills on a couple snipers I used to throw in a PCS with an autocannon that I ran for two games than 10 I played with a x4 GL PCS. That's pretty bad.

There's an old phrase of "you get what you pay for". You're paying 5pts for a gun that's trying to multipurpose into several roles. Add in the fact that IG need to specialize to get their best results, it's far better to say "I want this unit to hunt tanks, so I'm gonna give them meltas" than "eh, I don't really know what I want this unit to do, so I'll just give it grenade launchers because they're cheaper."

Remember, we're guard. Most armies regular troop units are better than our most elite troops. We can't be cute and say "oh yeah I'll just take Grenade Launchers and be multipurpose!" because that's just not a smart plan. Especially against armies like space marines, where a Grenade launcher has almost nothing good to shoot at. It's not even the best multipurpose weapon, since the plasma beats it in every category except having a small blast (and honestly, the amount of times a small blast will do anything against an opponent with a brain is pretty small).

Basically, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

EDIT: Sorry forgot one final counterpoint. When building an army, you should ask yourself "what am I seriously threatening with this weapon on this unit?" For example, say I have a unit of vets in carapace with plasma rifles, that unit will scare the crap out of any light armor, elite deepstrike units, or MC's (provided it's not some BS like an invisibility deathstar or the other cheesy things in vogue right now) Now ask yourself, what on earth in the game is honestly scared of grenade launchers, even in large numbers? Even guardsmen or orks aren't going to be scared of the small blasts and even rhinos aren't going to be scared of the AP round. That's ultimately the nail in the coffin of any weapon when I look at it.

Vets in chimeras are a classic.

Guard blob behind aegis defence line works well if you don't have to be mobile.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Look, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with how I build my lists, or the choices I make. I know it's not the 'conventional' way to do it, but it works for me in my meta, so why are you all so up in arms over it?

Does the grenade launcher suck compared to a Plasma Gun or Meltagun? Sure, it's not nearly as good, but it's also a half to a third the cost of either of those other weapon options and it's a DAMN sight better than the Lasgun.

I play at 1000 points or sometimes lower fairly regularly. A combination of not having a ton of time to get games in, and having several people in the area with new armies who are just starting into the hobby. As I implied in my opening post, this kind of thing lends itself well to a small force where points matter and utility can be crucial. Saving 5 points on a weapon here or there allows for a better upgrade on another part of the army, or lets you have an option for the sergeant that you otherwise might not have been able to fit in.

Lastly, and in closing, I like the grenade launcher. Just because you think it's trash doesn't mean it's useless. Do I run them a lot? No, but as an extra assault weapon that can reach out and hit something it works pretty well. You run your army how you want, I'll do the same. Deal?

Gotta love how some folks think that just because someone else's opinion is different from yours, it must mean that person is either a.) stupid; b.) wrong; or c.) both.

You don't like grenade launchers, great! Don't run 'em. In my experience they can do work, and are cheap on top of that, so why not consider them or at least present the option to someone and let them make their own decision based on what they want for their army?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

It's either a blast Lasgun or a crappy boltgun on a fragile platform with BS3. It's not useless since it's a non-zero weapon but it's damn near it. Literally any other weapon will serve you better for the points investment and slots.