Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the title suggests. I'm not aware of a definitive answer written in the fluff. If there isn't what do people suppose could have happened?

Were they eradicated due to the chapter's hatred of psykers (if indeed they do hate them)?
Was there a warp accident that led to them all dying or could they perhaps have turned renegade?
Could there have been a fault in the chapter's strand of geneseed (I'm not sure if this can happen to successor chapters and not their parent chapters(?))?

What do people think I likely (or possible)?

I would assume when they were founded as a chapter they were founded without Librarians in it.

It could be:
Dorn's Darkness -- a condition in which they constantly relive Dorn's darkest hour when he discovered the mortally wounded Emperor on the bridge of the Warmaster Horus' Battle Barge, the Vengeful Spirit.

That kinda doubt leaves a psykers open to all sorts of Chaos warp shenanigans


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 librarian falling to it could of effected them all.

I'm unsure of their lore tho, I kinda recall someone saying they've always held to the Big E's Edict of Nikaea. So yeah

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
It could be:
Dorn's Darkness -- a condition in which they constantly relive Dorn's darkest hour when he discovered the mortally wounded Emperor on the bridge of the Warmaster Horus' Battle Barge, the Vengeful Spirit.

That kinda doubt leaves a psykers open to all sorts of Chaos warp shenanigans

As in visions similar tp those suffered by the BA Death Company? Interesting idea

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
I'm unsure of their lore tho, I kinda recall someone saying they've always held to the Big E's Edict of Nikaea. So yeah

I like this idea more. An alternative possibility this made me think of was that in their utter devotion to the Emperor, they sacrificed their librarians to the Golden Throne as many psykers are - whether or not the librarians themselves consented would also be an interesting consideration

Nothing they did not have any Librarians.

The Imperial Fist broke down into 4 chapter after the Horus Heresy. The Black Templar under Chapter Master Sigismund were the more radical and the most zealous of all the Imperial Fists.

He vowed to "prove his loyalty, never resting in the prosecution of his duties against the enemies of the Emperor."

According to the Emperor at the Council of Nikaea anyone who would not follow the rules (disband librarius, never use psychic abilities,...) would be consider an enemy and a traitor.

The edict never cease to exist for the Black Templar since the Emperor "died" and never revoke it himself.

That makes sense enough. Is this from one of the HH books? I only ever got as far as Fallen Angels

That doesn't really gel with the latest book. They don't seem to know why they don't have a librarius or librarians and would possibly like to have them. Their hatred is reserved for xeno witches and sorcerers.

Even the 3rd ed stuff- they just dont use/train psykers doesnt work unless they have a psyker to screen out psykers.

 =Angel= wrote:
Even the 3rd ed stuff- they just dont use/train psykers doesnt work unless they have a psyker to screen out psykers.

They don't keep Librarians but they do work with psykers that maybe could help out there. Templar ships aren't going anywhere without Navigators and they're not hearing where they are needed without Astropaths, for one. And many Inquisitors hardline enough to be approved of by the templars are probably psykers as well.

They could also have some Chapter artifact that will light up when touched by a psyker so he can be safely contained and given over to the Inquisition (or maybe just killed).

Spetulhu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Even the 3rd ed stuff- they just dont use/train psykers doesnt work unless they have a psyker to screen out psykers.

They don't keep Librarians but they do work with psykers that maybe could help out there. Templar ships aren't going anywhere without Navigators and they're not hearing where they are needed without Astropaths, for one. And many Inquisitors hardline enough to be approved of by the templars are probably psykers as well.

They could also have some Chapter artifact that will light up when touched by a psyker so he can be safely contained and given over to the Inquisition (or maybe just killed).

'Brother Helveticus, what does the etheriometron say about the recruit's psykana rating?'
It is over nine thouuuuusand milliHoltz!
[Bolter discharge]

I like that. Plus psykers are rare enough I suppose that if you weren't actively trying to recruit them, you could recruit a million battle brothers before encountering one.
They could also see if the recruit weighs more than a duck.

What could have happened to the Black Templar librarians?

Probably a boltgun and soon after a flamer....

While they do respect navigators for their ability to gaze upon the light of God, and astropaths for having literally stood in the light of God and survived (something no Black Templar in their history could say to have done) [See the novella, The Eternal Crusader] they do not grant that same level of respect for other chapter's librarians [See The Last Wall]. Librarians have not stood before the light of the God-Emperor and thus are not soul-bound in the same way an Astropath is.

Now of course, below all three are xenos and unsanctioned psykers, neither of which deserve anything more than death.

Space Marine Codex Quote:
It is uncertain how, or when, the Black Templars ceased to field Librarians, for with their disappearance, much of the Chapter’s history was also lost. Outsiders suggest that, as the Chapter came to worship the Emperor as a god, they took his decree at the Edict of Nikaea to disband their Librarius divisions as holy law. Others whisper that the Black Templars’ gene-seed has somehow deteriorated, or that their Librarians were slain during a great war in the Chapter’s history. Some scholars point to the Black Templars’ final battle to end the Catelexis Heresy of M34, and the apocalyptic psychic death-screams that tore through the Warp after the slaying of the Cacodominus, as another possible explanation. Whatever the truth, the Black Templars have come to accept the loss of their Librarians as part of the Emperor’s divine plan. If the Emperor decides to once again bless the Black Templars with Librarians, they will embrace it, but until that day, they will wage battle without these powerful warriors at their side.

Then quoting from here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea

In 001.M31:
"the Emperor issued what would become known as the Edict of Nikaea, decreeing that the Legiones Astartes, beyond the use of Navigators and Astropaths, would no longer employ psykers. They were to disband their Librarius departments, the Librarians re-deployed to the battle companies and the primarchs themselves were to refrain from using any psychic powers they possessed."

So one would think that through "attrition" they lost their librarians and there is no motivation to develop them.
It was pointed out in the Council of Nikaea that further training is needed to strengthen them (somehow "sorcery" is slightly different to what a librarian does?) so without the tools, better to leave them undeveloped/unused.

jareddm wrote:
While they do respect navigators for their ability to gaze upon the light of God, and astropaths for having literally stood in the light of God and survived (something no Black Templar in their history could say to have done) [See the novella, The Eternal Crusader] they do not grant that same level of respect for other chapter's librarians [See The Last Wall]. Librarians have not stood before the light of the God-Emperor and thus are not soul-bound in the same way an Astropath is.

Now of course, below all three are xenos and unsanctioned psykers, neither of which deserve anything more than death.

I thought the Templars hated all mutants and navigators are tolerated because they're needed.

 Talizvar wrote:

Space Marine Codex Quote:
It is uncertain how, or when, the Black Templars ceased to field Librarians, for with their disappearance, much of the Chapter’s history was also lost. Outsiders suggest that, as the Chapter came to worship the Emperor as a god, they took his decree at the Edict of Nikaea to disband their Librarius divisions as holy law. Others whisper that the Black Templars’ gene-seed has somehow deteriorated, or that their Librarians were slain during a great war in the Chapter’s history. Some scholars point to the Black Templars’ final battle to end the Catelexis Heresy of M34, and the apocalyptic psychic death-screams that tore through the Warp after the slaying of the Cacodominus, as another possible explanation. Whatever the truth, the Black Templars have come to accept the loss of their Librarians as part of the Emperor’s divine plan. If the Emperor decides to once again bless the Black Templars with Librarians, they will embrace it, but until that day, they will wage battle without these powerful warriors at their side.

This is what I had in mind when writing the OP. I think it is likely that they immediately disbanded what psykers they had in their librarius (or as you mentioned later, redistributed them to their crusade forces and just let them die out).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
Then quoting from here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea

In 001.M31:
"the Emperor issued what would become known as the Edict of Nikaea, decreeing that the Legiones Astartes, beyond the use of Navigators and Astropaths, would no longer employ psykers. They were to disband their Librarius departments, the Librarians re-deployed to the battle companies and the primarchs themselves were to refrain from using any psychic powers they possessed."

This also explains why they still have Astropaths and Navigators and lends further weight to the idea that they took the Edict of Nikaea as holy law.

Well IIRC the Edict of Nikaea only prohibited Space Marines (and Primarchs) to use psychic powers. So there's no problem with them using Astropaths and Navigators, they were never included.

I have played Black Templar since before they had the Armageddon codex.
I found them interesting, their fervor is akin to Khorn followers and so I kept up on lore of what keeps them from straying.
I have "read between the lines" that Black Templar would also volunteer more for Inquisition work.
Enough fervor for facing the demonic.
Send the more... thoughtful types to Deathwatch.
It helps the Inquisition overlook the insane overpopulation of BT when their members are constantly tested and the crusade continues unabated.
It may all boil down to practicality: if you are "blunt" to the warp, it is harder to be corrupted.
The newer chaining yourself to weapons I view as penance for some wrong or a new Novice's need for penance like the old hair shirt.
For a group that largely prides itself to close combat, chaining yourself down is rather silly unless you like a challenge... uh, never mind.

actually chaining a weapon to yourself has some pratical use, it prevents you from being disarmed. so it may be a oid dueling practice that has become something of a ritual in and of itself

BrianDavion wrote:
actually chaining a weapon to yourself has some pratical use, it prevents you from being disarmed. so it may be a oid dueling practice that has become something of a ritual in and of itself

It comes from Sigismund, their first Chapter Master/High Seneschal, taking that custom from the World Eaters he spent a lot of itme with during the Great Crusade.

Engrenages wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually chaining a weapon to yourself has some pratical use, it prevents you from being disarmed. so it may be a oid dueling practice that has become something of a ritual in and of itself

It comes from Sigismund, their first Chapter Master/High Seneschal, taking that custom from the World Eaters he spent a lot of itme with during the Great Crusade.

yup, and chances are the world eaters did it simply to prevent losing a weapon. IIRC it does have some precident in real life.

BrianDavion wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually chaining a weapon to yourself has some pratical use, it prevents you from being disarmed. so it may be a oid dueling practice that has become something of a ritual in and of itself

It comes from Sigismund, their first Chapter Master/High Seneschal, taking that custom from the World Eaters he spent a lot of itme with during the Great Crusade.

yup, and chances are the world eaters did it simply to prevent losing a weapon. IIRC it does have some precident in real life.

It is funny how I mentioned earlier how BT's compare to Khorn followers.
I could see them needing chains because they forget themselves and try to tear at the enemy with their bare hands.
So they are using a "crutch" because they are afraid they may shame themselves and lose their weapon?
Shackles and chains are rather extreme, will need to tear the arm off before you lose those things.

 Talizvar wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually chaining a weapon to yourself has some pratical use, it prevents you from being disarmed. so it may be a oid dueling practice that has become something of a ritual in and of itself

It comes from Sigismund, their first Chapter Master/High Seneschal, taking that custom from the World Eaters he spent a lot of itme with during the Great Crusade.

yup, and chances are the world eaters did it simply to prevent losing a weapon. IIRC it does have some precident in real life.

It is funny how I mentioned earlier how BT's compare to Khorn followers.
I could see them needing chains because they forget themselves and try to tear at the enemy with their bare hands.
So they are using a "crutch" because they are afraid they may shame themselves and lose their weapon?
Shackles and chains are rather extreme, will need to tear the arm off before you lose those things.

not really that extreme at all depending how it's done.

The reason they chain their weapons is a vow that they will no lay their weapons down until they have finished their duty.

Also, on topic, from what I have gathered about the loss of Librarians among the templars is due a crusade which happen to also wipe out countless other psykers in a sort of horrible warp ripple. I forget the exact crusade name...

Continuing with that idea that they lost them all during that crusade, if you read Eternal Crusader it gives an interesting, if not strange view on the Templars and psykers. You witness the High Marshal himself bending a knee to his astopath when she meets with him. Not to mention there is a conversation between two sword brethren about the old Librarian area within the Eternal Crusader.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
The reason they chain their weapons is a vow that they will no lay their weapons down until they have finished their duty.

Also, on topic, from what I have gathered about the loss of Librarians among the templars is due a crusade which happen to also wipe out countless other psykers in a sort of horrible warp ripple. I forget the exact crusade name...

Continuing with that idea that they lost them all during that crusade, if you read Eternal Crusader it gives an interesting, if not strange view on the Templars and psykers. You witness the High Marshal himself bending a knee to his astopath when she meets with him. Not to mention there is a conversation between two sword brethren about the old Librarian area within the Eternal Crusader.

I believe this was at the close of the Catelexis Heresy. Will have to see if I can find of copy of Eternal Crusader to read, thanks!

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
The reason they chain their weapons is a vow that they will no lay their weapons down until they have finished their duty.

This. Not that Space Marines would surrender anyway- but it becomes impossible to surrender when you are chained to your gun.
A reminder of Holy Duty and a practicality that comes into play during a duel- you can let go of your pistol to grab the enemy's sword arm, cut his pistol arm off, FINISH HIM, jerk the pistol back into your hand and gun down one of his minions trying to flee.

You will raise your brow in a few awkward situations while reading it, but it does a good job of explaining the newer view of Templars which I had hated at first but now, grown to accept it. Your best bet is Helsreach and Blood and Fire, both outstanding books.

What happened to BT Libs? They all commited a suicide after reading BT newest fluff

I guess in a similar way to what happened after the council of Nikea. They just don't train them, ignore their existence and preach that they're anathema to the light of the (psychic) Emperor.