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Coming back to the hobby. Haven't played in years. I used to be one of those people who hated Space Marines but as I have grown older my fondness of them has increased and so I am deciding to take a trek down that path. My questions are as follows:

Are Blood Angels really that bad?
Is Ravenwing a viable option for Dark Angels?
Are codex marines that much better than the other two?

I consider myself a pretty strong player in terms of strategy and understanding game flow, strengths weaknesses etc. I do not care if I play the strongest army in the game but I do not want to be tabled because the codex I am playing is THAT bad and no matter what I do as a commander I cannot salvage it.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Blood Angels suffer from codex creep compared to the other two - their dreadnoughts get less attacks, their scouts are worse, etc. without any corresponding change in points costs. They also lack a "mega detachment" (to my knowledge).

Ravenwing is the most viable option for Dark Angels. It's their most competitive, and gets to hang out with super-friends at tournaments (i.e. a Ravenwing command squad, with apothecary, joined by a large number of independent characters on bikes/thunderwolves from other chapters to make a deathstar) but are good even in a mono-codex build.

Codex Marines get a number of benefits, pretty much for free - Chapter Tactics, a wide range of units that aren't available to all chapters (stalkers/hunters, centurions, stormtalons, thunderfire cannons, etc. etc.).

The difference isn't perhaps as huge as some make it out to be, but it can be galling seeing updated codexes getting "functionally superior" units (and let's not even mention Chaos SM players...).

Yes Blood Angels are really that bad. They don't do what they do well enough to make up for the limitations that have been placed on them.

Ravenwing is THE viable option for Dark Angels. Bikes are very strong right now and Ravenwing bikes have some very dirty tricks to make them potent.

Codex marines have all sorts of options right now that make them better. It's the flexibility in a single codex that makes the difference. Being able to pick some strengths out of the widest toybox to suit your needs is what makes it powerful. An individual army isn't the strongest, but vanilla has access to multiple very strong lists.

Blood Angels are definitely on the lower end, due to not being Codex: SM or their 7th edition codex being that great. That being said, they're still an okay force, especially with the addition of Grav.

Ravenwing is UNGODLY. Seriously, they made Deathwing worse, and buffed the hell out of the Ravenwing. RW is the only reason DA are seeing such a rise in performance at tournaments. They even rival White Scars now in terms of best bike army.

Yes, but only for the sheer amount of options you get. You can run Ultramarines, Iron Fists, Iron Hands, and each army plays differently, excelling at different units.

Generally speaking, SM are better than BA because of a few units that marines get that BA don't and a handful of formations. The difference on the table top is staggering, though.

Yes to all 3.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Yes Blood Angels are really that bad. They don't do what they do well enough to make up for the limitations that have been placed on them.

Ravenwing is THE viable option for Dark Angels. Bikes are very strong right now and Ravenwing bikes have some very dirty tricks to make them potent.

Codex marines have all sorts of options right now that make them better. It's the flexibility in a single codex that makes the difference. Being able to pick some strengths out of the widest toybox to suit your needs is what makes it powerful. An individual army isn't the strongest, but vanilla has access to multiple very strong lists.

i wish people would stop selling ravenwing as the only way to get to fething heaven to people asking about the codex in a very broad sense. you overly competitive dockworker

 ionusx wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Yes Blood Angels are really that bad. They don't do what they do well enough to make up for the limitations that have been placed on them.

Ravenwing is THE viable option for Dark Angels. Bikes are very strong right now and Ravenwing bikes have some very dirty tricks to make them potent.

Codex marines have all sorts of options right now that make them better. It's the flexibility in a single codex that makes the difference. Being able to pick some strengths out of the widest toybox to suit your needs is what makes it powerful. An individual army isn't the strongest, but vanilla has access to multiple very strong lists.

i wish people would stop selling ravenwing as the only way to get to fething heaven to people asking about the codex in a very broad sense. you overly competitive dockworker

Why? Sure, the rest of the codex is cool, but Ravenwing is HANDS DOWN the way to play DA if you play competitive at all. Denying that Ravenwing isn't better than Deathwing or Greenwing is asinine.

A word of advice: Don't buy based on the power of the codex. Just ask all those CSM players who bought during 3.5e how that works out. The Blood Angels are currently dramatically underpowered compared to the more resent codices. Codex marines are currently one of the strongest factions in the game. Dark Angels are currently somewhere in the middle. Codex power will fluctuate as new codices and supplements are released and updated. Build the models you like and play with the army you find the most fun.

So essentially it seems that playing blood angels is pointless because you are just creating a handicap for yourself that is avoided by picking up another marine dex.

TheMostWize wrote:
So essentially it seems that playing blood angels is pointless because you are just creating a handicap for yourself that is avoided by picking up another marine dex.

Yes and no. If you play in casual group, BA can do well. It's just when you steer towards the competitive that codex SM and DA are arguably better.

 jreilly89 wrote:

TheMostWize wrote:
So essentially it seems that playing blood angels is pointless because you are just creating a handicap for yourself that is avoided by picking up another marine dex.

Yes and no. If you play in casual group, BA can do well. It's just when you steer towards the competitive that codex SM and DA are arguably better.

Sounds good maybe I'll just take the blood angels plunge then since I play almost entirely casual with a few buddies. Can always expand to regular marines for fun later.

And I agree buying based on power is not a good way to go because things can change. I am by no means looking for the flavor of the month just looking for some answers. Thanks!

Play BAs and say they're Codex SM:Red Marines or a very brightly colored DAs successor chapter if you have to. The odds of playing against TFGs that scream, "Nuh unh! Dey gotta be green ones tuh be duh dark angels!!!1!" is very low. Eventually our (BAs) time will come again. It always does, and we get a year or so as a top tier army.

But that time ain't now. After you watch a Dante bomb bounce off a Canoptek harvest 3 times you'll $h!7
your pants in a rage. Buy'em cause you like the look and the fluff, not for their ability to win games. You've been warned.

blood angels suffer from the problems dark angels did back before 7th edition. their codex came out before the vanilla space marine 'dex and suffers for it as a result. ignoring formations and the like the biggest problem blood angels suffer from is some of their equivilant units lack buffs the space marines got.

Blood angels- not that bad. People complain about them because of their competitiveness compared to their codex marines brothers. (As someone said less dread attacks, etc) They have a good theme with them and have the 2nd best assault unit in the game imo, the death company. If you use these guys and you say you're as strategy-savvy as you are, and there isn't many WAAC players you'll do good.

Ravenwing- very competitive from what I can tell.

Codex marines- even more competitive. Apart of the big 4, tau, marines, eldar, and crons.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Blood angels- not that bad. People complain about them because of their competitiveness compared to their codex marines brothers. (As someone said less dread attacks, etc) They have a good theme with them and have the 2nd best assault unit in the game imo, the death company. If you use these guys and you say you're as strategy-savvy as you are, and there isn't many WAAC players you'll do good.

The Wulfen, TWC, Wraiths, Melee Wraithknight, DThirster and the Houndstar would like to have a word with you.

BA are not that good at assault which is one of their big shortfalls. You don't have to be very waac to stomp this codex.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are not that good at assault which is one of their big shortfalls. You don't have to be very waac to stomp this codex.

Sadly, this is very true. When people think of the best h2h units in the game they don't think of BAs. Its wraiths, twc, smashfucker or some chaos HQ choice. We're dead last. That's horrifying.

IDK where DthCo and sangguard come in. They're too expensive to take in huge batches. In small cost effective units they're reduced to bully units. And they most often require some Independent Character support. The ICs are expensive and usually take a whole other codex or valuable HQ slots.

Hey, Death Company are still great and certainly top ten if not top five.

Problem is the rest of the Codex is laughable so people normally focus on them and that's where T4 3+ 5+++ just doesn't shine

 Frozocrone wrote:
Hey, Death Company are still great and certainly top ten if not top five.

Problem is the rest of the Codex is laughable so people normally focus on them and that's where T4 3+ 5+++ just doesn't shine

They aren't top 5. Having to charge and being unable to take a charge is very limiting.

@frozocrone

In no certain order, and considering not only offense but durability and speed while en route to combat, and not considering IC's:

Khorne dogs
Wraithknight (all variants)
Canoptek wraiths
TWC
Wulfen
Imperial Knights (all variants)
Bloodthirster
lychguard

I can't think of any other off-the-top-of-my-head units without IC's/character-power combos that outclass them, so yeah I guess I'd believe "barely in the top 10" as a claim, as long as IC's and battlebro combos weren't considered. As you said though, after full elite slots of DC, there's not much else super helpful in a BA detachment, other than stealing a priest for a better imperial combo unit like iron hands vanguard/bikers.

 Quanar wrote:


Codex Marines get a number of benefits, pretty much for free - Chapter Tactics, a wide range of units that aren't available to all chapters (stalkers/hunters, centurions, stormtalons, thunderfire cannons, etc. etc.).

I feel a need to correct this,chapter tactics are not free, ALL chapters have chapter tactics baked into their cost. Dark Angels for example have Grim Detirmination, which gives stubbron and overwatch on BS 2. Blood Angels and space wolves have their equivilant as well... we can argue whose is better (yeah I agree vanilla marines proably are better that way) but in theory all space marines have chapter tactics.... except for chaos space marines cause feth chaos.

If you're going to play marines and don't have a preference for a specific chapter, seriously, just make your own up, or pick one from an unknown founding. That way you can switch between Chapter Tactics and even codices to suit your mood. Do that, try them all, and see what you like best.

BA are an assault army that's pretty awful at assaulting. C:SM do the CC game eons better than BA do. Keeping that in mind, take literally everything that makes C:SM a good dex, exchange those units/abilities /formations out for overcosted gak that doesn't work well if at all and you have a basic idea of where BA are.at right now.

It pains me to say this, but if you want fighty power armor run Space Pups.

Ravenwing is absolutely a viable way to run DA. IMO the best way by far.

Lastly, yes C:SM is head, pauldrons and pack above the other two. And that's before you factor in the Angels of Death supplement.

What the BA really are is a FAST army that isn't good at shooting or assaulting. This allows for the occasional maelstrom victory, not much else.