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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Problem:

Grav has, for all intents and purposes, replaced all other forms of imperial shooting. It's effective against too many things.

Outline of solution:

Therefore, grav must remain strong against what it's intended to kill (big, strong, giant things) but must be weakened against things it's not intended to kill (infantry spam).

Answer:

Revise the rules for graviton to read as follows: "All wounds accrued by a single volley of fire by a graviton weapon must be resolved against only a single model. Any wounds in excess of the number of wounds possessed by that model shall not be resolved against another model."

Further revise it to read: "A volley of graviton fire may, at most, only strip a single HP from a vehicle or produce the 'immobilized' result. Once a vehicle has been immobilized, it cannot be targeted by further volleys of graviton fire."

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/26 07:30:35


 
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






I agree that Grav needs to be good at killing large units, but these units should be predominantly (Flying) Monstrous Creatures and (Flying) Gargantuan Creatures.

The reason I impose this is because I feel Gravitation weapons should not be an Anti-Tank weapon since we already have plenty of those, and same goes for Anti-Infantry Weapons. Ergo, this leaves (Flying) Monstrous Creatures and (Flying) Gargantuan Creatures (among other things) for which my friends and I agree Grav should be the answer to.

So I feel that not only is your rule not fleshed out enough, but also doesn't properly address the fact that it should be (if nothing else) moving away from being effective against infantry and also moving away from being effective against vehicles.

Plus now it seems you're starting threads (which conveniently always include polls) because you ".. like data..."
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

I think the rules for grav are complicated enough for any newcomers. I don't think we need to muddy the waters further like this. If people think grav is op, the solution surely is just to increase the cost, and limit its availability.

It's already pretty expensive to kit out a normal dev squad as grav. But maybe limit grave to Sternguard, characters, and centurions. Or just make it prohibitively expensive for other units or something.

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 General Kroll wrote:
I think the rules for grav are complicated enough for any newcomers. I don't think we need to muddy the waters further like this. If people think grav is op, the solution surely is just to increase the cost, and limit its availability.

It's already pretty expensive to kit out a normal dev squad as grav. But maybe limit grave to Sternguard, characters, and centurions. Or just make it prohibitively expensive for other units or something.


It's not that complicated. "All wounds must be dealt to a single model; furthermore, once you've immobilized a vehicle, that's it. No more."

How complicated is that?

At any rate, your suggestion doesn't really fix grav. Limit grav to centurions? Grav centurions are OP as feth.
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Traditio wrote:
 General Kroll wrote:
I think the rules for grav are complicated enough for any newcomers. I don't think we need to muddy the waters further like this. If people think grav is op, the solution surely is just to increase the cost, and limit its availability.

It's already pretty expensive to kit out a normal dev squad as grav. But maybe limit grave to Sternguard, characters, and centurions. Or just make it prohibitively expensive for other units or something.


It's not that complicated. "All wounds must be dealt to a single model; furthermore, once you've immobilized a vehicle, that's it. No more."

How complicated is that?

At any rate, your suggestion doesn't really fix grav. Limit grav to centurions? Grav centurions are OP as feth.


What's complicated is your execution. Which model is the target if you're targeting a squad? Are you using the normal rules of whoever is closest? And what if the vehicle suffers an Immobilised result from Dangerous Terrain (for example)? Does that still mean that Grav can no longer fire at the target?

The General's solution is a lot easier and simpler.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






The real solution to grav is to make it do nothing against vehicles. If you want to kill vehicles while still killing elite infantry and MCs you take plasma. If you want the best way to kill elite infantry and MCs at the expense of doing nothing against vehicles and very little to horde infantry you take grav.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





IllumiNini wrote:What's complicated is your execution. Which model is the target if you're targeting a squad? Are you using the normal rules of whoever is closest?


Yes. Closest model is the target.

And what if the vehicle suffers an Immobilised result from Dangerous Terrain (for example)? Does that still mean that Grav can no longer fire at the target?


Yup.

The General's solution is a lot easier and simpler.


It also doesn't solve the problem of grav centurion cheese.
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Traditio wrote:
IllumiNini wrote:What's complicated is your execution. Which model is the target if you're targeting a squad? Are you using the normal rules of whoever is closest?


Yes. Closest model is the target.

And what if the vehicle suffers an Immobilised result from Dangerous Terrain (for example)? Does that still mean that Grav can no longer fire at the target?


Yup.


Then say that in the rule in the original post. When creating a rule, specificity is everything. So far, you have a sweeping statement that isn't specific enough. Include these answers in the original post.


Traditio wrote:
The General's solution is a lot easier and simpler.


It also doesn't solve the problem of grav centurion cheese.


I could also argue that neither does your solution. At least the General's solution offers to severely limit the amount of Grav attacks you can put out, thus mitigating the cheesiness at least a little bit.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
The real solution to grav is to make it do nothing against vehicles. If you want to kill vehicles while still killing elite infantry and MCs you take plasma. If you want the best way to kill elite infantry and MCs at the expense of doing nothing against vehicles and very little to horde infantry you take grav.


Do this. Remove the ability to glance or even cause immobilized results. Vehicle structures (with the exception of Orks ramshackle vehicles) are built to withstand multiples times its gravitational weight.

   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Grief wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
The real solution to grav is to make it do nothing against vehicles. If you want to kill vehicles while still killing elite infantry and MCs you take plasma. If you want the best way to kill elite infantry and MCs at the expense of doing nothing against vehicles and very little to horde infantry you take grav.


Do this. Remove the ability to glance or even cause immobilized results. Vehicle structures (with the exception of Orks ramshackle vehicles) are built to withstand multiples times its gravitational weight.


Can we also agree that grav should not be an anti-horde weapon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/26 07:59:03


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




How can you manage to so consistently generate bad ideas to fix issues in the least useful way? You would do better to restrict access to Grav than to try and fiddle with the rules for it. The problem is volume of fire, not what it can do. A single grav shot against a vehicle is a hail mary pass. Twenty grav shots is not. The problem is one of quantity, not quality.
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






MIni MIehm wrote:
How can you manage to so consistently generate bad ideas to fix issues in the least useful way? You would do better to restrict access to Grav than to try and fiddle with the rules for it. The problem is volume of fire, not what it can do. A single grav shot against a vehicle is a hail mary pass. Twenty grav shots is not. The problem is one of quantity, not quality.


Plus there has to be an element of Trolling when the title of the thread is "Brilliant Grav Fix" haha.

On the issue at hand, I always thought something along the lines of making Grav Cannons (for example) Salvo 2/3 instead of Salvo 3/5. This combined with the General's idea would definitely put Grav in its place.
   
Made in au
Missionary On A Mission




Australia

I think it just needs to change what value it wounds on. The fluff for Grav Guns is that they use the target's own mass against them, so why can't that be reflected in the existing rules by something that already exists: the Bulky USR. Change Grav so that instead of wounding vs an armour save, it wounds like the following:

Regular Models: 5+
Bulky Models: 4+ (would include Terminators, Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry)
Very Bulky Models/Monstrous Creatures: 3+ (would include Bikes, Jetbikes and Centurions)
Extremely Bulky Models/Gargantuan Creatures: 2+

It can have no effect against vehicles, because vehicles don't need any further help dying. Plus that gives an inherent weakness to Grav, requiring you to look elsewhere for anti-vehicle needs. Or risk running into a Guard Tank Company and being boned.


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Traditio wrote:
Can we also agree that grav should not be an anti-horde weapon?


It isn't. A grav weapon against a typical horde model (T3, 5+ armor or worse) is effectively a STR 2 AP 2 weapon, down to STR 1 against ork-equivalents. You can use grav against hordes if you have nothing better to do with it, but it's not going to accomplish much. You'll probably just wish you'd kept your bolters instead of "upgrading" to grav.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

 GoonBandito wrote:
I think it just needs to change what value it wounds on. The fluff for Grav Guns is that they use the target's own mass against them, so why can't that be reflected in the existing rules by something that already exists: the Bulky USR. Change Grav so that instead of wounding vs an armour save, it wounds like the following:

Regular Models: 5+
Bulky Models: 4+ (would include Terminators, Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry)
Very Bulky Models/Monstrous Creatures: 3+ (would include Bikes, Jetbikes and Centurions)
Extremely Bulky Models/Gargantuan Creatures: 2+

It can have no effect against vehicles, because vehicles don't need any further help dying. Plus that gives an inherent weakness to Grav, requiring you to look elsewhere for anti-vehicle needs. Or risk running into a Guard Tank Company and being boned.


They are all sensible suggestions, but I honestly think the rules need to be kept as simple and easy to remember as possible. Everyone usually remembers what armour save their units have, so it's really easy to just say, it wound on the armour save. All this bulky very bulky etc may have people pausing and looking up rules to check all the time. That was my problem with the OPs idea. Not that it was overly complex for seasoned players, or that hard to get your head around. Just that it adds another layer of rules checking to the game. Right now there is plenty to remember with grav. Did I move? Can I fire all my shots or just half range etc.

Just make it super expensive, and limit it to certain units. Sure it won't solve the problem of cent stars, but I don't think we need to. They are already expensive. Gravspam is clearly an issue though, so make grav a very expensive upgrade for things like bikes, tactical and standard dev squads. Say 50 points for a cannon and amp, and 30 for a standard gun/combi gun. Then let the Sternguard and cents keep access at the regular price kind of like how Vanguard get cheap power weapons.

That way it keeps the rules simple, and fluffy. Grav is supposed to be fairly rare, so chapters shouldn't really be equipping whole bike companies with it, or every tactical squad.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




MIni MIehm wrote:
How can you manage to so consistently generate bad ideas to fix issues in the least useful way? You would do better to restrict access to Grav than to try and fiddle with the rules for it. The problem is volume of fire, not what it can do. A single grav shot against a vehicle is a hail mary pass. Twenty grav shots is not. The problem is one of quantity, not quality.


It needs the volume of fire because MCs are undercosted for their durability. We could fix krak missiles and lascannons vs MCs and just eliminate grav as far as I'm concerned. But that's not happening because they have to sell models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IllumiNini wrote:
MIni MIehm wrote:
How can you manage to so consistently generate bad ideas to fix issues in the least useful way? You would do better to restrict access to Grav than to try and fiddle with the rules for it. The problem is volume of fire, not what it can do. A single grav shot against a vehicle is a hail mary pass. Twenty grav shots is not. The problem is one of quantity, not quality.


Plus there has to be an element of Trolling when the title of the thread is "Brilliant Grav Fix" haha.

On the issue at hand, I always thought something along the lines of making Grav Cannons (for example) Salvo 2/3 instead of Salvo 3/5. This combined with the General's idea would definitely put Grav in its place.


No RoF decrease unless you massively nerfing Riptide and WK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/26 13:37:04


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

This rule just makes grav useless. Eg, playing against space marines, and they take a lot of centurions of their own. Yay! I can kill one centurion a turn, even though grav guns should be great against their 2+ armour. Or if you were playing against farsight tau. Yay! I've killed their two riptides. For the next four turns I can kill one crisis suit per round of shooting with my expensive centurion unit.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Fix =/= useless.

I personally would use a Toughness or AV scale depending on vehicle in order to determine the dice needed to cause a wound.

E.g:

T1 T2 = 6
T3 T4 = 5
T5 T6 = 4
T7 T8 = 3
T9 T10 = 2

AV 10 = 6
AV 11 = 5
AV 12 = 4
AV 13 = 3
AV 14+ = 2

Rough preliminary for AV values since some vehicles have different facings (also Quantam Shielding needs to be addressed, so I think base values).

That way, Plasma is the go-to for Elite units that don't weigh much but Grav is the weapon for the heavier units.

Of course, the other option is for the weapons to be Heavy 3 or something that is not Salvo 3/5 (ie, reduced the number of shots).

Small drop in the ocean though...

YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Even at 5 shots, it can be a struggle to take down a Riptide or WK. With expensive as grav cents are, there should not be a struggle.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

That's an issue with the Riptide/Wraithknight. Centurions are overcosted as is for what they bring stat-wise.

But Grav-Cannons on Relentless (SnP but same thing in effect) platforms are just too good that 20 ppm more and I think I still would bring them.

YMDC = nightmare 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Frozocrone wrote:
That's an issue with the Riptide/Wraithknight. Centurions are overcosted as is for what they bring stat-wise.

But Grav-Cannons on Relentless (SnP but same thing in effect) platforms are just too good that 20 ppm more and I think I still would bring them.


Until Riptide/WK gets nerfed, no nerfs to grav. Which mean no nerfs to grav, because there would be the screams of 1,000,000 cheesemongers if their godmode MCs got nerfed.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Maybe they should learn2play

I don't see those MC getting nerfs anytime soon, considering they have just had new Codexes that buffed them instead of nerfing.

YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Frozocrone wrote:
Maybe they should learn2play

I don't see those MC getting nerfs anytime soon, considering they have just had new Codexes that buffed them instead of nerfing.


Exactly. So by that logic, grav actually needs buffs, and terminators and the like should just understand that they have no role in this game anymore.
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






The Dog-house

We could just change Grav to wound based on model size

normal: 5+
Bulky: 4+
Extremely Bulky: +3
MC: 2+
GMC: 2+ with reroll on 4+

Infantry model may make a strength test to ignore the wound. If they fail, they take the wound with no saves of any kind allowed (FNP and RP are unaffected). If a model passes the test, they ignore the wound.

Any Flying unit has to test for grounding (with rerolls) if it gets hit. Regular Tests if it gets wounded.

Tanks get Immobilized for a single turn on a to-pen roll of 6. This does not cause a hull point to be lost. Further immobilizations caused by graviton weapons do not stack and do not cause hullpoints to be lost.

Skimmers get Crew Stunned on a to-pen of 6 and cannot Jink for that turn. This does not cause a hull point to be lost.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/26 14:19:10


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That's a better idea.
   
Made in us
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The Dog-house

Martel732 wrote:
That's a better idea.


Any suggestions?

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
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 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
That's a better idea.


Any suggestions?


Seems okay to me, but I'm sure someone else will have an objection.
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Martel732 wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
That's a better idea.


Any suggestions?


Seems okay to me, but I'm sure someone else will have an objection.


And what do ya know? I'm here to object! haha


Tactical_Spam wrote:We could just change Grav to wound based on model size

normal: 5+
Bulky: 4+
Extremely Bulky: +3
MC: 2+
GMC: 2+ with reroll on 4+

Infantry model may make a strength test to ignore the wound. If they fail, they take the wound with no saves of any kind allowed (FNP and RP are unaffected). If a model passes the test, they ignore the wound.

Any Flying unit has to test for grounding (with rerolls) if it gets hit. Regular Tests if it gets wounded.

Tanks get Immobilized for a single turn on a to-pen roll of 6. This does not cause a hull point to be lost. Further immobilizations caused by graviton weapons do not stack and do not cause hullpoints to be lost.

Skimmers get Crew Stunned on a to-pen of 6 and cannot Jink for that turn. This does not cause a hull point to be lost.


My two objections are:

(1) If Grav can hurt vehicles, it should not cause Immobilised results. It should be Crew Shaken instead and still inflict the HP. I'm still tossing up whether or not I like the idea of Grav hurting vehicles in the first place.

(2) Skimmers as well as Open-Topped should get a Crew Stunned result, suffer a HP, and not be able to Jink the next turn (maybe three is too much, but losing a HP should be one of the at least two that affects them).
   
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The Dog-house

 IllumiNini wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:We could just change Grav to wound based on model size

normal: 5+
Bulky: 4+
Extremely Bulky: +3
MC: 2+
GMC: 2+ with reroll on 4+

Infantry model may make a strength test to ignore the wound. If they fail, they take the wound with no saves of any kind allowed (FNP and RP are unaffected). If a model passes the test, they ignore the wound.

Any Flying unit has to test for grounding (with rerolls) if it gets hit. Regular Tests if it gets wounded.

Tanks get Immobilized for a single turn on a to-pen roll of 6. This does not cause a hull point to be lost. Further immobilizations caused by graviton weapons do not stack and do not cause hullpoints to be lost.

Skimmers get Crew Stunned on a to-pen of 6 and cannot Jink for that turn. This does not cause a hull point to be lost.


My two objections are:

(1) If Grav can hurt vehicles, it should not cause Immobilised results. It should be Crew Shaken instead and still inflict the HP. I'm still tossing up whether or not I like the idea of Grav hurting vehicles in the first place.

(2) Skimmers as well as Open-Topped should get a Crew Stunned result, suffer a HP, and not be able to Jink the next turn (maybe three is too much, but losing a HP should be one of the at least two that affects them).


(1) I do not like the idea of suffering HP from grav, but the rest is considered. I am balancing the effects of grav between Skimmers and Tanks because frankly Skimmers are more survivable than tanks. If a Tank cannot move, it will probably die. If a Skimmer cannot Jink, it will probably die. I do not want to sacrifice the damage output of a Tank because they are bad enough as it is.

(2) Why would Open-Topped also get Crew Stunned?

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
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Gathering the Informations.

 General Kroll wrote:
I think the rules for grav are complicated enough for any newcomers. I don't think we need to muddy the waters further like this. If people think grav is op, the solution surely is just to increase the cost, and limit its availability.

It's already pretty expensive to kit out a normal dev squad as grav. But maybe limit grave to Sternguard, characters, and centurions. Or just make it prohibitively expensive for other units or something.

That's brilliant, let's invalidate the only good option that Dev Squads have.
   
 
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