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I know that ITC explicitly bans a captain from a battle company to be upgraded to a chapter master but does that imply that a strike force command squad captain can be upgraded to a chapter master?

I feel that RAW they can for sure. With or without the upgrade the unit composition is 'captain' and that fulfills the formation.

I know this is probably a rehash but I wanted peoples feelings on this as I just played in a tournament where someone went 5-0 with a chapter master derived from a battle demi company.

The ITC uses a houserule. RAW you can upgrade the unit Captain to contain the Chaptermaster model in both cases.

The Datasheet entry fdor a chaptermaster is "captain", so he can be upgraded as such.

ITC use a houserule. Again

Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

I would argue that Chaptermaster is just an upgrade to the Captain model the same as adding Artificer Armor or a Power Weapon.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

I would argue that Chaptermaster is just an upgrade to the Captain model the same as adding Artificer Armor or a Power Weapon.

Except it changes the model from one identity to another. Hence the confusion.

 Charistoph wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gets a little weird with the new FAQ; it is not a "unit of captain" so it is the model only.

And grimuldus as a chaplain cannot bring his servitors.

I would argue that Chaptermaster is just an upgrade to the Captain model the same as adding Artificer Armor or a Power Weapon.

Except it changes the model from one identity to another. Hence the confusion.

Confusion or not, there is a plainly written rule that allows the upgrade to be taken and there is no rule preventing it.

Exceedingly clear RAW here folks.

col_impact wrote:
Confusion or not, there is a plainly written rule that allows the upgrade to be taken and there is no rule preventing it.

Exceedingly clear RAW here folks.

And the FAQ Draft references only using that model if it doesn't stated "unit". A Captain unit may contain a Captain model or a Chapter Master model.

But the change of identity is important since it is more significant than a Wargear change, since the Profile changes, and sometimes Wargear and Wargear options as well (such as Orbital Strike).

nekooni wrote:
The ITC uses a houserule. RAW you can upgrade the unit Captain to contain the Chaptermaster model in both cases.

According to the faq it's not an ITC house rule. You are explicitly not allowed to upgrade a model into another model. Of course you can house rule whatever you and your friends want to play with into your formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The Datasheet entry fdor a chaptermaster is "captain", so he can be upgraded as such.

ITC use a houserule. Again

The datasheet entry for commander pask is tank commander. And the faq specifically says you can't do that.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Confusion or not, there is a plainly written rule that allows the upgrade to be taken and there is no rule preventing it.

Exceedingly clear RAW here folks.

And the FAQ Draft references only using that model if it doesn't stated "unit". A Captain unit may contain a Captain model or a Chapter Master model.

But the change of identity is important since it is more significant than a Wargear change, since the Profile changes, and sometimes Wargear and Wargear options as well (such as Orbital Strike).

The datasheet allows the upgrade to be taken and the formation lists no restrictions.

Its up to the Formation to actively restrict the permission that has been given. But there are no restrictions.

Nothing to discuss here. Clear RAW.

You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.
So in this instance GW says it is not allowed and your example of chapter master you are claiming it is allowed whereas they both use the same wording regarding upgrading them. That is niether clear nor allowed.

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique character choice, yes or no?

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?
Is pask an upgrade?
Is a chapter master an upgrade?

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?

It's exactly the same entry upgrade as pask.
They are both upgrades to the unit and one was clarified as not allowed.

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?
Is pask an upgrade?
Is a chapter master an upgrade?

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

This doesn't apply to the case of the Chapter Master since the Chapter Master is not a Unique character.

Gungo, you simply need to employ your reading abilities to sort this out. So please just read.

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?

It's exactly the same entry upgrade as pask.
They are both upgrades to the unit and one was clarified as not allowed.

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:
The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit.

How is this relevant for a Captain? The unit is technically still a "Captain" unit. it's the same unit, just a different model. That's what we've been telling you for ages and STILL you're arguing that there is a change of the unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
You can keep saying clear RAW all you want doesn't make it true. The faq clearly stated you can't upgrade a unit in the formation to another unit. Tank commander laterally says pask is an upgrade choice in the tank commander profile exactly like the chapter master and yet it explicitly and clearly said those types of upgrades are not allowed.

Please post the relevant FAQ ruling.

I can't cut and paste it and don't feel like rewriting it.
It's in the detachment and formation sheet.
It's wording was more like can I upgrade a formation entry to a special character like the tank commander upgrade into commander pask.
The answer was no

The tank commander upgrade regarding pask is exactly like the chapter master upgrade line.
It states a tank commander may be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts.

Commander pask does not have a seperate unit cost or entry. He is a direct upgrade for a tank commander.

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique HQ choice, yes or no?

Please clarify is he an upgrade? Yes or no?

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.
The battle company specifically calls out a captain, the tank commander specifically calls out a tank commander.

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

You still refuse to acknowledge that "Captain" is a unit, that's literally it? I'm out, this is entirely pointless.

gungo wrote:

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

Post the relevant rules. It has been noted that you are having trouble comprehending rules or are misremembering how they apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

You still refuse to acknowledge that "Captain" is a unit, that's literally it? I'm out, this is entirely pointless.

Of course the 1 Captain model forms a unit in its own right.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

Post the relevant rules. It has been noted that you are having trouble comprehending rules or are misremembering how they apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

gungo wrote:

nekooni wrote:

He's an upgrade, but are you seriously arguing that I cannot use apothecaries, veteran sergeants and the like in any formation?
Pask is a unique, named character and THAT is why you're restricted on when to use it. It's not the template to apply to any and all upgrades, that's just plain stupid.

If a formation states those models and not units then yes that's exactly what you use. They specifically called out the difference between a model and a unit.

You still refuse to acknowledge that "Captain" is a unit, that's literally it? I'm out, this is entirely pointless.

Of course the 1 Captain model forms a unit in its own right.

Spoiler:

FORMING A UNIT
The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into ‘units’.

Feel free to look up the formation and detachment sheet yourself. I haven't misremembered a thing as I'm reading it and typing the same time.
You are applying it to one instance while not to the other.
You are claiming an upgraded in a unit entry is allowed for battle company where the same upgrade wording is specifically not allowed.

col_impact, please stop being so combative and derogatory in your posts. It is hurting our (your) side of the debate.

gungo wrote:


Feel free to look up the formation and detachment sheet yourself. I haven't misremembered a thing as I'm reading it and typing the same time.
You are applying it to one instance while not to the other.
You are claiming an upgraded in a unit entry is allowed for battle company where the same upgrade wording is specifically not allowed.

Yup and you are failing at reading it.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

This does not apply to the Chapter Master. The Chapter Master is not a Unique character.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:


Feel free to look up the formation and detachment sheet yourself. I haven't misremembered a thing as I'm reading it and typing the same time.
You are applying it to one instance while not to the other.
You are claiming an upgraded in a unit entry is allowed for battle company where the same upgrade wording is specifically not allowed.

Yup and you are failing at reading it.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

This does not apply to the Chapter Master. The Chapter Master is not a Unique character.

How does that make any difference when the rules for upgrading the unit entry Is exactly the same as chapter master and nothing in the formation or rulebook prevents it other wise? The clarification to that question was abit " upgrading" a unit entry into the pask upgrade which is a special character, but it is exactly the same upgrade wording as a chapter master.

This is you failing at reading the faq.

gungo wrote:

How does that make any difference when the rules for upgrading the unit entry Is exactly the same as chapter master and nothing in the formation or rulebook prevents it other wise? The clarification to that question was abit " upgrading" a unit entry into the pask upgrade which is a special character, but it is exactly the same upgrade wording as a chapter master.

This is you failing at reading the faq.

The FAQ says you cannot upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No.

Does the FAQ apply to the Chapter Master upgrade? No.

col_impact wrote:The datasheet allows the upgrade to be taken and the formation lists no restrictions.

Its up to the Formation to actively restrict the permission that has been given. But there are no restrictions.

Nothing to discuss here. Clear RAW.

I agree its RAW, and if you think there are no restrictions, the formation list itself is the first set of restrictions.

But the the Draft FAQ for Detachments and Formations thinks otherwise:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

The Chapter Master is a model in the Captain unit. The Formation does not state "1 unit of Captain", but "1 Captain". According to the Draft FAQ, this means that it is referring to the model and not the unit. And the Chapter Master model is not a Captain model per the datasheet's only profile listing and options set.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The datasheet allows the upgrade to be taken and the formation lists no restrictions.

Its up to the Formation to actively restrict the permission that has been given. But there are no restrictions.

Nothing to discuss here. Clear RAW.

I agree its RAW, and if you think there are no restrictions, the formation list itself is the first set of restrictions.

But the the Draft FAQ for Detachments and Formations thinks otherwise:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

The Chapter Master is a model in the Captain unit. The Formation does not state "1 unit of Captain", but "1 Captain". According to the Draft FAQ, this means that it is referring to the model and not the unit. And the Chapter Master model is not a Captain model per the datasheet's only profile listing and options set.

Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.



So you freely purchase the options.

May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no... It's exactly the same wording.
Chapter master is no different. The fact it's a special character is not relevant to it being an upgrade that is not allowed for a formation model