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No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

"I know that ITC explicitly bans a captain from a battle company to be upgraded to a chapter master but does that imply that a strike force command squad captain can be upgraded to a chapter master?" <- The OP of this thread.

Bah, read it too quickly when I went back to review.

Aijec wrote:The verbage is the exact same, why does it being a formation or not matter? What is "tightness"?

Restrictions are restrictions.

Because a Formation has specific known rule guidelines to follow. A Choice like this... not so much.

 Aijec wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
Why does a codex entry matter?


The composition of the captain unit regardless of upgrades is "captain" which fulfills the battle company.


The ITC indirectly acknowledges that it's RAW possible to get a chapter master from a battle company. That is specifically why they banned it.

Incorrect. The composition of the Captain unit changes if the Captain model is upgraded to be a Chapter Master, just like the composition of the unit changes in a Crusader Squad if an Initiate is upgraded to a Sword Brother.

You are wrong. Look at the codex.

Both entries use the same composition.

Unit Composition

"1 Captain"

And the Unit Profile lists what?

The Options say what?

Aijec wrote:Chapter Masters unit composition is still "Captain" which fulfills the Battle company.

Absolutely not. The intent of saying "captain" is to exclude chapter masters. If you look at the note on the bottom of the page, you won't find Pedro Kantor, Calgar, etc. listed as possible replacements for a captain.

At any rate, it says "Captain." It doesn't say "Chapter Master."

Chapter masters aren't captains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

The formation doesn't require a captain unit. It requires a captain. P. 112. Read the text. It's clear as day to any unbiased reader.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

I agree. That isn't the case anymore though. In the past Captains and Chapter Masters had their own separate entries. Now it's just a single HQ choice.

The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

 Aijec wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

I agree. That isn't the case anymore though. In the past Captains and Chapter Masters had their own separate entries. Now it's just a single HQ choice.

Actually that IS the case now.

It is one entry of a unit that contains both model profiles. When you upgrade the original composition of 1 Captain model to 1 Chapter Master model, the unit composition of the Captain unit is now 1 Chapter Master.

You seem to be confusing the unit and model concepts here.

Review the datasheet legend.
"5. Unit Profile: This section will show the profiles of any models the unit can include."
"7. Unit Composition: This section shows the number and type of models that form the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken."
"8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost."

If the Chapter Master is not a model option in the Captain unit, why is its model profile showing up in there? Why is the Chapter Master model listed with its own Wargear the Captain cannot access (Orbital Strike)?

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Chapter Masters unit composition is still "Captain" which fulfills the Battle company.

Absolutely not. The intent of saying "captain" is to exclude chapter masters. If you look at the note on the bottom of the page, you won't find Pedro Kantor, Calgar, etc. listed as possible replacements for a captain.

At any rate, it says "Captain." It doesn't say "Chapter Master."

Chapter masters aren't captains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

The formation doesn't require a captain unit. It requires a captain. P. 112. Read the text. It's clear as day to any unbiased reader.

It's telling you to take the Captain entry from the space marine codex, it even lists the entire page, just like its telling you to take 0-1 unit of dreadnoughts.

Does that mean I have to take multiple dreadnoughts in a single unit because its plural? You have no basis for telling me that I need a specific model for the captain entry. Why wouldn't you argue against me taking a powerfist or a claw? What's the difference in your logic?

The composition of a Chapter Master is captain and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread;.

ITC agrees with me so much that it needed to add a specific addendum to their FAQ.

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

Is a chapter master a captain?

Yes or no?

No long answers. I'm looking for a simple one word answer.

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

True, there is no actual rule for that.

However, some people put a lot of truck in those GW House Rules called FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aijec wrote:
The composition of a Chapter Master is captain and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread;.

You have that backwards. The model is not composed of the unit, the unit is composed of the model. Chapter Master is only a model now, not a unit, per the datasheet legend.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

True, there is no actual rule for that.

However, some people put a lot of truck in those GW House Rules called FAQs.

The FAQs aren't providing rules in this case though. Only hints to RAI. Technically, I can still RAW add additional Spyders to the 1 Canoptek Spyder in the Canoptek formation. No rule (or FAQ rule) restricts me from doing just that.

Aijec wrote:It's telling you to take the Captain entry from the space marine codex

No, it isn't. It's saying to take a captain.

You're overcomplicating this. In the words of GW, "we have to use a little common sense here."

just like its telling you to take 0-1 unit of dreadnoughts.

It specifically says "0-1 unit of dreadnoughts," etc. It doesn't say 1 unit of captain(s). It says "1 captain."

Again, your'e overcomplicating this. Less verbal gymnastics; more common sense, please.

The composition of a Chapter Master is captain

Is a chapter master a captain?

Yes or no?

One word answer. That's all I'm looking for.

 Traditio wrote:


Is a chapter master a captain?

Yes or no?

One word answer. That's all I'm looking for.

Yes

col_impact wrote:Yes

Lol no.

Try again.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The crux of the matter is there is a gray area with regards to how Formation listings interact with datasheets.

It is important to highlight in bold that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing.

If you have purchased a Chapter Master then you most certainly have purchased a Captain and have satisfied the Formation listing unless someone can point to a rule that says otherwise!

True, there is no actual rule for that.

However, some people put a lot of truck in those GW House Rules called FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aijec wrote:
The composition of a Chapter Master is captain and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread;.

You have that backwards. The model is not composed of the unit, the unit is composed of the model. Chapter Master is only a model now, not a unit, per the datasheet legend.

What?

The composition of a Chapter Master Unit is "Captain" and until anyone can prove otherwise the topic should be clear as day to anyone viewing this thread.

The ITC felt it was SO clear that they had to specifically ban that option for battle companies.

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:Yes

Lol no.

Try again.

That's my straight answer. I can't buy a Chapter Master directly. It's always an upgraded Captain.

col_impact wrote:That's my straight answer. I can't buy a Chapter Master directly. It's always an upgraded Captain.

At which point it ceases to be a captain. It's that simple.

RAI is obvious from note 1 on p. 112. Calgar, Kantor and Helbrecht aren't listed.

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:That's my straight answer. I can't buy a Chapter Master directly. It's always an upgraded Captain.

At which point it ceases to be a captain. It's that simple.

RAI is obvious from note 1 on p. 112. Calgar, Kantor and Helbrecht aren't listed.

We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

If you can't show me a rule that restricts me then I have satisfied everything RAW.

col_impact wrote:We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

Oh, so this is an exercise in "Lol GW writes bad rules and if we try hard enough, and if we engage in sufficient grammatical pedantry and verbal gymnastics, we can produce ridiculous results"?

Ok.

I'm not particularly interested in that conversation.

The answer to the actually interesting question, "Given the rules under the most obvious and straightforward reading of them, can I take a chapter master for this selection," the answer is an obvious "no." Again. Note 1. P. 112.

Chapter masters aren't captains.

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

Oh, so this is an exercise in "Lol GW writes bad rules and if we try hard enough, and if we engage in sufficient grammatical pedantry and verbal gymnastics, we can produce ridiculous results"?

Ok.

I'm not particularly interested in that conversation.

The answer to the actually interesting question, "Given the rules under the most obvious and straightforward reading of them, can I take a chapter master for this selection," the answer is an obvious "no." Again. Note 1. P. 112.

Chapter masters aren't captains.

Feel free to mark your contributions as HYWPI. I am more interested in how the actual rules themselves work since that is how my play group plays the rules. We play RAW.

Let me use your logic for a moment.

Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

Are you telling me that I can't upgrade the sergeant to a Vet?

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

Where does this stop? What is the difference between these two scenarios?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:We are arguing RAW. Show me a rule that says I have not satisfied the Formation listings by purchasing a Captain and then upgrading that Captain per the unrestricted datasheet into a Chapter Master.

Waiting for you to show me a rule. Waiting . . .

Oh, so this is an exercise in "Lol GW writes bad rules and if we try hard enough, and if we engage in sufficient grammatical pedantry and verbal gymnastics, we can produce ridiculous results"?

Ok.

I'm not particularly interested in that conversation.

The answer to the actually interesting question, "Given the rules under the most obvious and straightforward reading of them, can I take a chapter master for this selection," the answer is an obvious "no." Again. Note 1. P. 112.

Chapter masters aren't captains.

Why is taking a chapter master a ridiculous result lol?

Aijec wrote:Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

No, they don't. They tell you to take 6 tactical squads. The minimum unit composition for those squads are 4 space marines and a space marine sergeant. You subsequently may upgrade a space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant, you may add more tactical marines, etc.

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

I've said nothing of the sort.

What I've said is that a chapter master isn't a captain.

This should be patently obvious to anyone who isn't trying to find a loophole.

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No you have it backwards. There is no 'Chapter Master unit', only a Captain Unit with a unit composition of 1 Chapter Master.

If its unit composition is 'Chapter Master' then it isn't a Captain model anymore.

The formation doesn't require a captain unit. It requires a captain. P. 112. Read the text. It's clear as day to any unbiased reader.

Traditio, I know this might seem strange, but we're in agreeance here. I'm not saying you can take a Chapter Master, I'm saying the exact opposite.

Aijec wrote:Why is taking a chapter master a ridiculous result lol?

Because a chapter master isn't a captain.

It's that simple.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

No, they don't. They tell you to take 6 tactical squads. The minimum unit composition for those squads are 4 space marines and a space marine sergeant. You subsequently may upgrade a space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant, you may add more tactical marines, etc.

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

I've said nothing of the sort.

What I've said is that a chapter master isn't a captain.

This should be patently obvious to anyone who isn't trying to find a loophole.

No loophole. I am just purchasing Captains and buying Formations and purchasing upgrades on the datasheets because no rule restricts me from making those purchases!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Why is taking a chapter master a ridiculous result lol?

Because a chapter master isn't a captain.

It's that simple.

A Chapter Master is an upgraded Captain. It's that simple. Just look at the datasheet!

col_impact wrote:No loophole. I am just purchasing Captains and buying Formations and purchasing upgrades on the datasheets because no rule restricts me from making those purchases!

It doesn't say "captain unit." It says "captain."

I repeat:

Chapter masters are not captains.

Again, see note 1 on p. 112. It's perfectly obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:A Chapter Master is an upgraded Captain. It's that simple. Just look at the datasheet!

In virtue of that upgrade, it ceases to be a captain.

 Traditio wrote:

Aijec wrote:Battle Companies tell me to take tactical squads with a unit composition of 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

No, they don't. They tell you to take 6 tactical squads. The minimum unit composition for those squads are 4 space marines and a space marine sergeant. You subsequently may upgrade a space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant, you may add more tactical marines, etc.

Because by your logic if I stray from the original composition it is no longer a tactical squad.

I've said nothing of the sort.

What I've said is that a chapter master isn't a captain.

This should be patently obvious to anyone who isn't trying to find a loophole.

What are you talking about 6 tactical squads? When did I say anything different? Battle Demi Companies require 3 btw. Battle Companies don't exist as a formation.

If I've taken the upgrade to Chapter Master which is the same as me upgrading a srgnt to a vet why does it change the unit composition in one and not the other?

Why does it change the title of the entire unit in one and not the other?

Where are these rules?

 Traditio wrote:

col_impact wrote:No loophole. I am just purchasing Captains and buying Formations and purchasing upgrades on the datasheets because no rule restricts me from making those purchases!

It doesn't say "captain unit." It says "captain."

I repeat:

Chapter masters are not captains.

Again, see note 1 on p. 112. It's perfectly obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:A Chapter Master is an upgraded Captain. It's that simple. Just look at the datasheet!

In virtue of that upgrade, it ceases to be a captain.

Who cares? At that point I have purchased the Formation, unless you show me rules that restrict datasheets based on Formation listings!

You need to start referencing some rules here buddy. As it is, I can purchase the Formation and purchase the upgrades that I am permitted.

Hey col, just because there's no rule, doesn't mean it's allowed.
Maybe read the GW FaQ everyone keeps telling you about?

A Chapter Master is an upgrade to a Captain Unit that replaces the Captain Model that makes up its unit composition. The FaQ clearly states when '1 [Blank]' is used, it refers to a specific model and not a specific unit. A Chapter Master is not a Captain model.

Aijec wrote:What are you talking about 6 tactical squads? When did I say anything different? Battle Demi Companies require 3 btw. Battle Companies don't exist as a formation.

This. This is the kind of pedantry I'm talking about.

The FAQs strongly imply that you should stop that.

If I've taken the upgrade to Chapter Master which is the same as me upgrading a srgnt to a vet why does it change the unit composition in one and not the other?

Who gives a flying feth about "unit composition"? The strike force command selection doesn't offer the option to take a "captain unit." It says "A captain."

Let me say this for all of you for the billionth time. Read carefully.

A chapter master is not a captain.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Hey col, just because there's no rule, doesn't mean it's allowed.
Maybe read the GW FaQ everyone keeps telling you about?

A Chapter Master is an upgrade to a Captain Unit that replaces the Captain Model that makes up its unit composition. The FaQ clearly states when '1 [Blank]' is used, it refers to a specific model and not a specific unit. A Chapter Master is not a Captain model.

The datasheet provides the permission so unless there is a rule restricting me I can most assuredly purchase the Chapter Master upgrade unless you can show me a rule that says otherwise! Them's the rules.