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gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

col_impact wrote:
Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts

So you freely purchase the options.

The fact that models must be organized in a unit is irrelevant to this discussion. Those Formations which list 1 Captain or 1 Canoptek Spyder start as one model units.

But by upgrading the Captain model to a Chapter Master, he becomes a Chapter Master model and ceases to be a Captain model. If the Demi-Company Formation list is specifying "1 Captain" model (as this FAQ Draft suggests), then by upgrading to a Chapter Master, you break the requirements of the Formation list.

Or in other words, the restriction against upgrading it to a different model is the same as including more units in the formation than is allowed.

I don't fully agree with this version of the FAQ, as it ignores many different aspects of Formation construction, but then, there are a lot of stupid things in the FAQ series which are counter to what the rules state literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

That is counter to your case if the upgrade is a part of the unit options, though. The unit upgrades one model to another. In every other case of a Formation listing those options, there are completely different units involved.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts

So you freely purchase the options.

The fact that models must be organized in a unit is irrelevant to this discussion. Those Formations which list 1 Captain or 1 Canoptek Spyder start as one model units.

But by upgrading the Captain model to a Chapter Master, he becomes a Chapter Master model and ceases to be a Captain model. If the Demi-Company Formation list is specifying "1 Captain" model (as this FAQ Draft suggests), then by upgrading to a Chapter Master, you break the requirements of the Formation list.

Or in other words, the restriction against upgrading it to a different model is the same as including more units in the formation than is allowed.

I don't fully agree with this version of the FAQ, as it ignores many different aspects of Formation construction, but then, there are a lot of stupid things in the FAQ series which are counter to what the rules state literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

That is counter to your case if the upgrade is a part of the unit options, though. The unit upgrades one model to another. In every other case of a Formation listing those options, there are completely different units involved.

Incorrect. You simply upgrade the model per the permission provided in the rules. Formations are a collection of units with datasheets. That's how you can add whole units (dedicated transports) that aren't listed on the Formation. That is also how you can add apothecaries to squads, etc.



A Chapter Master is always an upgraded Captain. You cannot purchase a Chapter Master directly except as an upgrade to a Captain so it will not break the Formation list. It's equivalent to purchasing a bike for the Captain (having a bike requires a new model and unit type)

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Per the rules, a model must be organized in a unit. So we are talking about a "unit of 1 Captain model" and not a "unit of Captain models". So a unit of a single Captain model has access to its datasheet. On that datasheet it lists.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts

So you freely purchase the options.

The fact that models must be organized in a unit is irrelevant to this discussion. Those Formations which list 1 Captain or 1 Canoptek Spyder start as one model units.

But by upgrading the Captain model to a Chapter Master, he becomes a Chapter Master model and ceases to be a Captain model. If the Demi-Company Formation list is specifying "1 Captain" model (as this FAQ Draft suggests), then by upgrading to a Chapter Master, you break the requirements of the Formation list.

Or in other words, the restriction against upgrading it to a different model is the same as including more units in the formation than is allowed.

I don't fully agree with this version of the FAQ, as it ignores many different aspects of Formation construction, but then, there are a lot of stupid things in the FAQ series which are counter to what the rules state literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no
Chapter master is no different

Is Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply. Just read the rule dude.

That is counter to your case if the upgrade is a part of the unit options, though. The unit upgrades one model to another. In every other case of a Formation listing those options, there are completely different units involved.

no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

gungo wrote:
no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply.

Since your opinion continues to ignore basic logic and language comprehension, we can safely disregard your opinion.

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply.

Since your opinion continues to ignore basic logic and language comprehension, we can safely disregard your opinion.

Since you continue to repeat yourself without any rationale thought I guess we can ignore your posts.

gungo wrote:

col_impact wrote:

gungo wrote:
no I am taking the faq as a clarification and not an errata where it simply disallows special characters. This specific faq was about upgrading a tank commander to pask. The answer was no. They didn't add a new rule they said that upgrading the model to its upgrade option was not allowed it's litterally the same wording as the chapter master upgrade which would also not be allowed because the formation calls for a tank commoner or captain and not thier respective upgrades because it never specified the other upgrade model or the entire unit.

Is the Chapter Master a Unique character? No. The FAQ does not apply.

Since your opinion continues to ignore basic logic and language comprehension, we can safely disregard your opinion.

Since you continue to repeat yourself without any rationale thought I guess we can ignore your posts.

From the FAQ: "Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in a specific formation?" [Gives example then answer] "No."

Please clarify . . . is a Chapter Master a Unique character choice, yes or no?

col_impact wrote:Incorrect. You simply upgrade the model per the permission provided in the rules. Formations are a collection of units with datasheets. That's how you can add whole units (dedicated transports) that aren't listed on the Formation. That is also how you can add apothecaries to squads, etc.

A Chapter Master is always an upgraded Captain. You cannot purchase a Chapter Master directly except as an upgrade to a Captain so it will not break the Formation list. It's equivalent to purchasing a bike for the Captain (having a bike requires a new model and unit type)

And you completely bypassed/ignored/didn't listen to the FAQ Draft quote I provided and the point I was making. Here is the quote again:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

In this case, they are saying that by listing a model IS listing a restriction to just that model. In the case provided in the question, the option to add more Spyders is as much an option to upgrade to Chapter Master or to Pask.

Are the Captain model and Chapter Master model the same? No. No more than an Initiate is the same as a Sword Brother or a Tank Commander is Pask (or vice versa). One is an upgrade of another, true. No argument. However, to think that they are the same model is ignoring what the definition provided by the Unit Profiles in the army list entries/datasheets.

As I said, it is stupid and not really RAW since it should be listed in the Restrictions and not in the Formation list, but it IS what they are saying in the Draft.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Formation list "1 Tank Commander" or "1 unit of Tank Commander"? From the way its worded, it is using the same language as the Canoptek Spyder question.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:Incorrect. You simply upgrade the model per the permission provided in the rules. Formations are a collection of units with datasheets. That's how you can add whole units (dedicated transports) that aren't listed on the Formation. That is also how you can add apothecaries to squads, etc.

A Chapter Master is always an upgraded Captain. You cannot purchase a Chapter Master directly except as an upgrade to a Captain so it will not break the Formation list. It's equivalent to purchasing a bike for the Captain (having a bike requires a new model and unit type)

And you completely bypassed/ignored/didn't listen to the FAQ Draft quote I provided and the point I was making. Here is the quote again:
"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?

A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

In this case, they are saying that by listing a model IS listing a restriction to just that model. In the case provided in the question, the option to add more Spyders is as much an option to upgrade to Chapter Master or to Pask.

Are the Captain model and Chapter Master model the same? No. No more than an Initiate is the same as a Sword Brother or a Tank Commander is Pask (or vice versa). One is an upgrade of another, true. No argument. However, to think that they are the same model is ignoring what the definition provided by the Unit Profiles in the army list entries/datasheets.

As I said, it is stupid and not really RAW since it should be listed in the Restrictions and not in the Formation list, but it IS what they are saying in the Draft.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Formation list "1 Tank Commander" or "1 unit of Tank Commander"? From the way its worded, it is using the same language as the Canoptek Spyder question.

Except you miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model. By your argument the Captain on a Bike is illegal since it would break the Formation listing of 1 Captain model.

However, your argument is fundamentally flawed. You assume a restriction on the datasheets of the units in the Formations where none exists. If you feel you can prove otherwise, page and paragraph for your rules reference please.

col_impact wrote:

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model.

Is there a codex entry for 'Captain on a bike'?

Or is it just a Captain with a bike?

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model.

Is there a codex entry for 'Captain on a bike'?

Or is it just a Captain with a bike?

It's special wargear upgrade that requires a change in unit type and model. So a Formation listing and restricted to 1 Captain model could not be including 1 Captain on a bike model. They are as different as a Captain model from the upgraded Captain model in the form of the Chapter Master (who can only be purchased by upgrading from a Captain)

col_impact wrote:

It's special wargear upgrade that requires a change in unit type and model. So a Formation listing and restricted to 1 Captain model could not be including 1 Captain on a bike model.

I suspect that you're taking the word 'type' in that FAQ response to mean something other than what they meant.

They're not talking about the Unit Type. They're talking about that 'type' of model. As in, if the Formation refers specifically to, say, a Hive Tyrant, it doesn't mean that it has to be a Monstrous Creature... just that it has to be a Hive Tyrant.

Same thing here. The formation requires a Captain, so you have to have a Captain. A Captain on a bike is still a Captain. It just has a bike.


The logic that giving him a bike requires a different model and so breaks the formation rules would appliy similarly to giving him any wargear that he doesn't come with as standard.

They are as different as a Captain model from the upgraded Captain model in the form of the Chapter Master (who can only be purchased by upgrading from a Captain)

They're not, though. The Captain on a bike is a Captain... with a bike. He still uses the Captain profile. The Chapter Master does not.


This is (as so often is the case) the problem with GW using the same name for units and for some (but not all) of the models in them. It leaves it up to the players to try to figure out whether any given instance of that name is referring to the unit or specifically to the model.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It's special wargear upgrade that requires a change in unit type and model. So a Formation listing and restricted to 1 Captain model could not be including 1 Captain on a bike model.

I suspect that you're taking the word 'type' in that FAQ response to mean something other than what they meant.

They're not talking about the Unit Type. They're talking about that 'type' of model. As in, if the Formation refers specifically to, say, a Hive Tyrant, it doesn't mean that it has to be a Monstrous Creature... just that it has to be a Hive Tyrant.

Same thing here. The formation requires a Captain, so you have to have a Captain. A Captain on a bike is still a Captain. It just has a bike.


The logic that giving him a bike requires a different model and so breaks the formation rules would appliy similarly to giving him any wargear that he doesn't come with as standard.

They are as different as a Captain model from the upgraded Captain model in the form of the Chapter Master (who can only be purchased by upgrading from a Captain)

They're not, though. The Captain on a bike is a Captain... with a bike. He still uses the Captain profile. The Chapter Master does not.


This is (as so often is the case) the problem with GW using the same name for units and for some (but not all) of the models in them. It leaves it up to the players to try to figure out whether any given instance of that name is referring to the unit or specifically to the model.

The Captain on a bike is an entirely different model.

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

You miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

gungo wrote:
May be upgraded to commander pask for 40pts
Answer no... It's exactly the same wording.
Chapter master is no different. The fact it's a special character is not relevant to it being an upgrade that is not allowed for a formation model

The chapter master is different because it's not Unique. The only valid objection to upgrading the Captain to a Chapter Master is the following faq:

"Q: When listing Formations, sometimes it states '1 model' (like 1 Tomb Spyder), while other times it lists '1 Unit of models' like 1 unit of Tomb Blades). Are these interchangeable?
A: No. The former means a single model for the type listed, while the later means a single unit of the type listed."

To be more clear; assuming the faq regarding Pask means that you cannot upgrade any model to be another model, the Gladius Strike Forces would not be allowed to include Veteran Sergeants, Apothecaries, Company Champions, or any other such upgrade.

The above faq however only applies to models that are specifically referred to in the formation dataslate. Whether or not the formation refers to '1 Captain unit' vs '1 Captain model', is the issue up for debate.

Personally I have no issue with the Captain being upgraded to a Chapter Master regardless of RAW

col_impact wrote:

The Captain on a bike is an entirely different model.

Different from what?

A Captain with a plasma pistol is a different model to a Captain with a bolt pistol.


Where exactly are you drawing the line? How many parts of the model have to be different for it to be considered a different model?

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that you still have a Captain... just that you purchased one to upgrade to a Chapter Master.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The Captain on a bike is an entirely different model.

Different from what?

A Captain with a plasma pistol is a different model to a Captain with a bolt pistol.


Where exactly are you drawing the line? How many parts of the model have to be different for it to be considered a different model?

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that you still have a Captain... just that you purchased one to upgrade to a Chapter Master.

You miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

Once you have satisfied the purchase requirements for a Formation you are free to purchase upgrades in the Options section unless you can present a rule that explicitly states otherwise.

I wasn't making an argument about purchase requirements. I was questioning your claim that a captain with a bike is not a captain.

 insaniak wrote:
I wasn't making an argument about purchase requirements. I was questioning your claim that a captain with a bike is not a captain.

My claim, to be precise, was that a Captain model is a different model than a Captain on a bike model.

col_impact wrote:Except you miss entirely that there is no rule that restricts the datasheet by the Formation listing. If you think such a rule exists please present this rule to the thread!

Open your ears and pay attention to what I am saying and not just make knee-jerk reactions.

I did not miss that entirely. GW missed that entirely since that is THEIR FAQ answer that is providing it, not mine. It has been pointed out that many of their FAQs have no proper reference in the rulebook/codex and sometimes full on COUNTER what is said in the rulebook/codex. Wake up and pay attention.

I even stated that it ignores their rules and places restrictions in a place that it normally isn't used (Formation Lists are to be calling models by the units it lists, not each one specifically).

col_impact wrote:So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model. By your argument the Captain on a Bike is illegal since it would break the Formation listing of 1 Captain model.

You are confusing the physical with the datasheet. There is no "Bike Captain" model listed on the datasheet, there is "Captain" and "Chapter Master". While a Bike does change the Unit Type, it does not change it to a different model listed in the Profile for Composition. I even presented this concept in this way. If you are confused by this, review Point 5 listed on the Datasheet legend in Codex: Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Payne wrote:
To be more clear; assuming the faq regarding Pask means that you cannot upgrade any model to be another model, the Gladius Strike Forces would not be allowed to include Veteran Sergeants, Apothecaries, Company Champions, or any other such upgrade.

Not really. Those Sergeants are never called specifically in the Formation list like the Captain and Canoptek Spyder are. They are only included due to their unit being called. Since it is the unit being called, the Sergeants are otherwise free to upgrade.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity, does the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Formation list "1 Tank Commander" or "1 unit of Tank Commander"? From the way the question is worded, it is using the same language as the Canoptek Spyder question.

col_impact wrote:

My claim, to be precise, was that a Captain model is a different model than a Captain on a bike model.

Indeed. And the counterpoint was that this is irrelevant, since both models use the same profile.

The formation just requires a Captain, not a specific Captain model.

I think it's a difficult question.

The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

The problem is that, for the generic options, it doesn't say "chapter master." It says "captain."

RAW, the answer is clearly "no."

But RAI, it seems like the answer should be "yes."'

Ask GW to FAQ it.

 Traditio wrote:
The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

If we are talking about the Demi-Company lists that make the Battle Company designation of the Gladius, that would be incorrect. Marneus, Helbrecht, and Pedro are only available as part of the Strike Force Command Choice. Only the Uniques that have Captain in their unit names can swap out the generic Captain option for the Demi-Company.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

If we are talking about the Demi-Company lists that make the Battle Company designation of the Gladius, that would be incorrect. Marneus, Helbrecht, and Pedro are only available as part of the Strike Force Command Choice. Only the Uniques that have Captain in their unit names can swap out the generic Captain option for the Demi-Company.

I was talking about the Strike Force Command thing. There's no explicit option to take a generic chapter master.

 insaniak wrote:

col_impact wrote:

So I purchase a Captain in the Formation and I upgrade him to a Captain on a Bike which requires a new unit type and new model.

Is there a codex entry for 'Captain on a bike'?

Or is it just a Captain with a bike?

Why does a codex entry matter?


The composition of the captain unit regardless of upgrades is "captain" which fulfills the battle company.


The ITC indirectly acknowledges that it's RAW possible to get a chapter master from a battle company. That is specifically why they banned it.

 Traditio wrote:
I was talking about the Strike Force Command thing. There's no explicit option to take a generic chapter master.

But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

And, yeah, it is listed as 1 Captain there, too (but can be replaced by other Unique Captains like the Demi-Company).

Technically speaking, the Strike Force Command isn't even a Formation, so I don't know how tight it has to be.

 Traditio wrote:
I think it's a difficult question.

The sense of the text obviously implies that Chapter Masters are supposed to go in that slot. Marneus Calgar, Helbrecht and Pedro Kantor are options, and you are able to take honor guard.

The problem is that, for the generic options, it doesn't say "chapter master." It says "captain."

RAW, the answer is clearly "no."

But RAI, it seems like the answer should be "yes."'

Ask GW to FAQ it.

RAW the answer is clearly yes....

The title of the unit is captain, the composition of the unit is captain. This isn't a different codex entry.

Charistoph wrote:But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

"I know that ITC explicitly bans a captain from a battle company to be upgraded to a chapter master but does that imply that a strike force command squad captain can be upgraded to a chapter master?" <- The OP of this thread.

For this, see p. 112 of the codex. "Strike Force Command."

Technically speaking, the Strike Force Command isn't even a Formation, so I don't know how tight it has to be.

It's a command selection for the gladius strike force.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
I was talking about the Strike Force Command thing. There's no explicit option to take a generic chapter master.

But not part of the Battle Company requested in part of the OP.

And, yeah, it is listed as 1 Captain there, too (but can be replaced by other Unique Captains like the Demi-Company).

Technically speaking, the Strike Force Command isn't even a Formation, so I don't know how tight it has to be.

The verbage is the exact same, why does it being a formation or not matter? What is "tightness"?

Restrictions are restrictions.

 Aijec wrote:
Why does a codex entry matter?


The composition of the captain unit regardless of upgrades is "captain" which fulfills the battle company.


The ITC indirectly acknowledges that it's RAW possible to get a chapter master from a battle company. That is specifically why they banned it.

Incorrect. The composition of the Captain unit changes if the Captain model is upgraded to be a Chapter Master, just like the composition of the unit changes in a Crusader Squad if an Initiate is upgraded to a Sword Brother.

The Chapter Master is an upgrade to the Captain model. If you have a Chapter Master then you have must first purchased a Captain.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that you still have a Captain... just that you purchased one to upgrade to a Chapter Master.