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Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter






USA

Just curious what official sources say, I'm torn between them firing smaller rounds or the same sized as Bolters and Storm Bolters do. I know for fact Heavy Bolters fire massive shots by comparison.

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





.75 caliber rounds.

Which is amusing, given the number of people who insist that bolter rounds shouldn't be effective vs vehicles.

Yes. They should.

.50 caliber is effective vs. light vehicles,so far as I know.

Bolter rounds are .75 caliber and explode like grenades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:02:10


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Traditio wrote:
.75 caliber rounds.

Which is amusing, given the number of people who insist that bolter rounds shouldn't be effective vs vehicles.

Yes. They should.

.50 caliber is effective vs. light vehicles,so far as I know.

Bolter rounds are .75 caliber and explode like grenades.


Except bolters can damage light vehicles in game, and the detonation isn't a shaped charge irrc, so the explosion might not be able to breach armor.

Keep in mind that a heavy stubber is basically a .50 machine gun, and lasguns are supposed to inflict damage similar to the impact caused by a .50 round, and they have no effect against light vehicles.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:11:21


What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






 Traditio wrote:
.75 caliber rounds.

Which is amusing, given the number of people who insist that bolter rounds shouldn't be effective vs vehicles.

Yes. They should.

.50 caliber is effective vs. light vehicles,so far as I know.

Bolter rounds are .75 caliber and explode like grenades.


< See what CthuluIsSpy Said >.

Plus: When you say that you know .50 caliber rounds are effective against light vehicles, are you basing it off real world data or in-game fluff? Because if you're basing it off real world data, I have some bad news... that's the wrong way to be thinking about this particular issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:13:08


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Really? Isn't a M2 browning capable of shredding unarmored or lightly armored vehicles? Because they supposed to be effective against those sort of targets according to the information I found.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:15:39


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? Isn't a M2 browning capable of shredding unarmored or lightly armored vehicles? Because they supposed to be effective against those sort of targets according to the information I found.


Well it's a case of real world examples being predominantly irrelevant since what Traditio's post implies is that he hasn't considered the fact that technology with regards to armour has also progressed in the 40k universe which will undoubtedly mean it's harder to penetrate.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

Oh that's what you meant.
Yeah, the armor advanced a little bit, though the in lore stats are a little iffy.
Like, a landraider has 95mm of armor, which is surprisingly thin.
Granted, its made out of fantasy materials of unknown strength, but you'd think GW would open a book on WW2 tanks and use the Tiger 2 as a point of reference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:33:21


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Made in us
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh that's what you meant.
Yeah, the armor advanced a little bit, though the in lore stats are a little iffy.
Like, a landraider has 95mm of armor, which is surprisingly thin.
Granted, its made out of fantasy materials of unknown strength, but you'd think GW would open a book on WW2 tanks and use the Tiger 2 as a point of reference.


Either way, can we at least agree that just as a .50 caliber round is to a lightly armored vehicle today, so too, at least should a bolter round be to a lightly armored vehicle in the imperium?

If the imperial guard are firing sci-fi M-16s, the standard issue arms for space marines are fully automatic anti-tank rifles.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:34:54


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

More like the guard are using sci-fi ASH-12 (new Russian rifle chambered for 12.7mm rounds, which are close in caliber to .50) and marines are using grenade launches.
Which are still primarily anti-infantry, even today.

In order for bolters to be considered anti-tank rifles, they would have to be effective against tanks. They aren't. A lightly armored vehicle is not a tank.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 09:41:06


What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

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Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






 Traditio wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh that's what you meant.
Yeah, the armor advanced a little bit, though the in lore stats are a little iffy.
Like, a landraider has 95mm of armor, which is surprisingly thin.
Granted, its made out of fantasy materials of unknown strength, but you'd think GW would open a book on WW2 tanks and use the Tiger 2 as a point of reference.


Either way, can we at least agree that just as a .50 caliber round is to a lightly armored vehicle today, so too, at least should a bolter round be to a lightly armored vehicle in the imperium?

If the imperial guard are firing sci-fi M-16s, the standard issue arms for space marines are fully automatic anti-tank rifles.


I don't know about in the fluff because I havent read enough, but on tabletop, Bolters glance AV10 on a 6, so yes, they can hurt light vehicles. So there's that.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Exactly. A heavy stubber can damage the side armour of a mainline APC (a chimera). That's maybe understating it a bit, but seems pretty fair for a simplification.


Bolt Pistols and Boltguns both fire the same calibre round - the difference is merely in the accuracy of the weapon.

Note that some sources do put a difference in calibre between 'normal' and 'Angelus-calibre' bolt weapons - i.e. the ones Space Marines are packing fire physically bigger (1.0 cal) and higher power rounds than the ones fired by a bolt pistol carried by, say, a commissar.

This is mostly something you see in the FFG roleplay games.


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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Traditio wrote:
.75 caliber rounds.
Which is amusing, given the number of people iwho insist that bolter rounds shouldn't be effective vs vehicles.
Yes. They should.
.50 caliber is effective vs. light vehicles,so far as I know.
Bolter rounds are .75 caliber and explode like grenades.


Caliber means very little. Here are two different .50 cal rounds. Do you think they have the same effect on targets?



One has a much heavier projectile and a much greater volume of propellant. Clearly it's going to be MUCH more effective against armour. It's also much to big to fit into a boltgun magazine so to compare bolt rounds to it just because it's a similar caliber is simply erroneous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 10:44:12


 
   
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IIRC, a bolter is closer to a 20mm grenade

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
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40k doesn't treat the weapon based of it's fluff - it makes them a standard battle rifle. In reality the heavybolter with hell fireshells would suit the weapons fluff much better compared to it's stats.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Also remember that Space Marines are almost never modeled with spare magazines...the fluff on numerous times in the past stated that the Bolters fired caseless rounds (despite seeing shell casings pop out) and at .75 cal. a bolter magazine would hold all of...twenty rounds.

Let's not even go down this road...
   
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On moon miranda.

Yeah, Bolters really break down once you start applying reality to them. The entire fundamental principle just doesnt work terribly well.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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I don't know about that - maybe when you compare them to what is on their models. However, if you just look at how they are described combined with the fact the are super-humans with powered battlesuits - I imagine something like an Mk19 being perfectly feasible. Why would you arm your elite soldiers with anything less?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/01 18:45:19


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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On moon miranda.

The problem with something like an MK19 in terms of firepower(which I would probably equate more with a Heavy Bolter personally, particularly with how Heavy Bolters original rules functioned) is that such a weapon would have major issues with ammo supply and be dangerous to the user in close quarters.

Bolters have the additonal issue of being described as RPG guns. Well, these have been tried in real life. They cant hit the broad side of a barn and have minimum effective ranges of about 20-50 feet, because the projectile doesnt reach peak velocity until some time after it leaves the barrel. Now the 40k "cheat" around this is describing a booster charge of sorts, but that defeats the purpose of going with rocket propulsion in the first place so why not just make them conventionally designed projectiles if they need all the stuff conventional projectiles need anyway?

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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New Orleans, LA

38,000 years in the future, bolters are rocket powered, explosive war heads that need casings to fire.

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After I saw the diagram of Azrael's Lion's Roar (or was it Lion's Wrath? can't remember the exact name) I gave up on any semblance of logic in 40k firearms.

I mean just look at that and try and figure out how the ammunition gets from the magazine into the barrel without teleporting technology.

EDIT: And before anyone chimes in to say that it might actually use teleportation technology to load it's rounds, then I gotta ask why bother teleporting the bullet around the gun and not just into the enemy?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 19:35:03


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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
then I gotta ask why bother teleporting the bullet around the gun and not just into the enemy?

Because human technology peaked in the Dark Age of Technology. There's no reason to event new things. Duh. Report for reindoctrination to your local Ad Mech facility.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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On moon miranda.

Hahaha yeah, and if you look at things like bolt pistols or the older RT/2E bolters where the magazine is so far forward that chambering a round would just be shoving it right out the muzzle

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
Hahaha yeah, and if you look at things like bolt pistols or the older RT/2E bolters where the magazine is so far forward that chambering a round would just be shoving it right out the muzzle

It's possible that it was supposed to be a blow forward design (which the gyrojet rifle and pistol were) but I suspect they just didn't consider the magazine placement to be significant.
   
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.50 cal machine gun rounds absolutely do hurt light vehicles.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
.50 cal machine gun rounds absolutely do hurt light vehicles.

.50BMG does but .50AE or .50Beowulf do not.

Comparing a bolt gun to .50BMG purely because it's a similar caliber is nonsensical.
   
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IIRC arent a lot of ball and cap rifles .50 as well?

@ op

True answer is whatever the writer wants to put it as

as well is it human or astarties size. and a great number of other things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 20:26:25


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Scott-S6 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
.50 cal machine gun rounds absolutely do hurt light vehicles.

.50BMG does but .50AE or .50Beowulf do not.

Comparing a bolt gun to .50BMG purely because it's a similar caliber is nonsensical.


I'm talking about like a Browning .50 cal from WWII.

Boltguns are pure nonsense; I'm just talking about the reference to .50 cal vs vehicles.
   
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Southern California, USA

Bolters fire in a two stage rocket system. The first stage fires like a conventional firearm so the brass casing makes sense. It'd alleviate heat build up and looks cool to boot. The second state is where the rocket comes into play.

Also, I think it's hilarious how the port where spent rounds are ejected from is not in line with the barrel. As if the Imperium went through all the trouble to design a special mechanism to make that possible just for the sake of... reasons.

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Anyone here ever design munitions for a living? -*raises hand*

Its a sci-fi setting so there will always be a bit of hand waving on details... but given 40k depictions of bolters and heavy stubbers we can draw reasonable inferences. A heavy stubber is suppose to be analogous to a .50cal machingegun, like an M2... In real life light armored vehicles have hardened aluminum armor and they're designed to protect against some fire from those sorts of weapons. The fact a heavy stubber and a bolter are just on the edge of being able to damage AV10 would be consistent with that real life analogy.

If you built a .75cal bolter round, in all likelihood it would be moving much slower than a .50cal round. While .50cal rounds can be loaded with explosives the type of effect you can get is rather limited. This is because when you have a munition delivering an explosive payload you want to optimize the duration the explosive is in contact with the surface... too fast and your projectile will bounce off too quickly and the air gap exponentially diminish the effectiveness.
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Thing is most military vehicles represent in 40k. There hardened vs attack. Ie can be glanced but not so easy via a bolter.

A civilian 40k design would not have such emphasis on armour and secondary systems.

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