Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all! If you're in the NW area and want to play in a 2 day ITC grand tournament this weekend, you're in luck! Guardian Games is hosting the Guardian Cup 9! It's a 2 day grand tournament hosted by the best game store around, in the lovely Portland, Oregon. You'll spend 2 days playing for some great prize support, ITC points, and trophies, all the while enjoying snacks and adult beverages from the Critical Sip, the store's in house bar.

Tickets for the event are $50, which goes almost entirely to prize support and the raffle. There's still a few spots available, make sure to grab your tickets soon!

http://www.guardiancup.org/

I was told tickets were Sold Out.

Only for people named Julio

Damn. That must sucks for those guys.

Was great fun. Looking forward to the Next one.

Crazy amount of ties.

The Renegade army with a crazy number of thud guns. Did he have like 8 to 10+ maybe.

Army with 8 riptides.

3 IK unit with a Caden Caster Daemon Factory and Conclave giving all 3 IK the Knight Unit AV14 front and AV 13 the rest was just crazy good.




Did you see anyone using The fulmination Power at the tournament at all? There was several armies with conclave and not one person rolled for that discipline.. I asked and everyone of the players said why would even role on that table now..
That nerf need to be relooked at and adjusted since it just made the whole discipline like Pyromancy.

With out the VSG I would have been toast with all the crazy amount of shooting that was there.
Some first turn assaults would have be refreshing after dealing with all the crazy amount of shooting a lot the those list put out.
That * riptide whole army got to shoot me 3 times with full BS before I could even get to charge him. In fact he charges me instead. LOL

Only couple SM and no Gladius at all. No Tyranids this time around ether.

Crazy

shadowfinder wrote:
Was great fun. Looking forward to the Next one.

Crazy amount of ties.

The Renegade army with a crazy number of thud guns. Did he have like 8 to 10+ maybe.

Army with 8 riptides.

3 IK unit with a Caden Caster Daemon Factory and Conclave giving all 3 IK the Knight Unit AV14 front and AV 13 the rest was just crazy good.




Did you see anyone using The fulmination Power at the tournament at all? There was several armies with conclave and not one person rolled for that discipline.. I asked and everyone of the players said why would even role on that table now..
That nerf need to be relooked at and adjusted since it just made the whole discipline like Pyromancy.

With out the VSG I would have been toast with all the crazy amount of shooting that was there.
Some first turn assaults would have be refreshing after dealing with all the crazy amount of shooting a lot the those list put out.
That * riptide whole army got to shoot me 3 times with full BS before I could even get to charge him. In fact he charges me instead. LOL

Only couple SM and no Gladius at all. No Tyranids this time around ether.

Crazy

I don't believe that's how it works for the IK's. Each Knight is a separate unit by itself.

Just because you don't see people rolling on Fulmination due to the nerf doesn't mean the power is alright.

In any case, sounds like you guys had a blast. One of these days, I will be going up to the area again for one of those tournaments.

 jy2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:


3 IK unit with a Caden Caster Daemon Factory and Conclave giving all 3 IK the Knight Unit AV14 front and AV 13 the rest was just crazy good.

I don't believe that's how it works for the IK's. Each Knight is a separate unit by itself.

I'd assume that list was using a Tripartate lance, so they benefit as a unit.

Ah, I forgot about the Tripartite formation. Thanks for the correction.

 jy2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
Was great fun. Looking forward to the Next one.

Crazy amount of ties.

The Renegade army with a crazy number of thud guns. Did he have like 8 to 10+ maybe.

Army with 8 riptides.

3 IK unit with a Caden Caster Daemon Factory and Conclave giving all 3 IK the Knight Unit AV14 front and AV 13 the rest was just crazy good.




Did you see anyone using The fulmination Power at the tournament at all? There was several armies with conclave and not one person rolled for that discipline.. I asked and everyone of the players said why would even role on that table now..
That nerf need to be relooked at and adjusted since it just made the whole discipline like Pyromancy.

With out the VSG I would have been toast with all the crazy amount of shooting that was there.
Some first turn assaults would have be refreshing after dealing with all the crazy amount of shooting a lot the those list put out.
That * riptide whole army got to shoot me 3 times with full BS before I could even get to charge him. In fact he charges me instead. LOL

Only couple SM and no Gladius at all. No Tyranids this time around ether.

Crazy

I don't believe that's how it works for the IK's. Each Knight is a separate unit by itself.

Just because you don't see people rolling on Fulmination due to the nerf doesn't mean the power is alright.

In any case, sounds like you guys had a blast. One of these days, I will be going up to the area again for one of those tournaments.

Well if in the last 3 tournaments in my area including a GT level event no one used it it is a good indication that the way they nerfed it was to much. The power raw can put assault armies on par with the crazy shooting armies. Same horse just a different color. What's the difference from a shooting army getting powers that twin links them , let's them ignore cover and line of site on mass shooting units some with high strength blast.

I am not saying to run it as normal \raw. I say nerf the swap and charge or swap in to combat not both.

I understand the deathstar fear with the Conclave issue. Turn one charges can and do happen, really that's not the issue so much, as it's the Conclave makes getting high lvl powers off way to easy. Honestly without the Conclave the power is pretty balanced.

As someone said the knights are a unit. With the summonsing they are pretty nasty. The new powers make the crazy good and you can heal them with it too.

The power in and of itself isn't too bad when used with normal units. However, the problem lies with people using it on super-deathstars. If you don't think people will abuse this tactic in tournament play, then you are being naïve.

It's not a game if you your opponent pulls this off for a T1 multi-assault to effectively end the game before it even begins. This is the type of shenanigan which will drive newer players away from tournament play.

 jy2 wrote:
The power in and of itself isn't too bad when used with normal units. However, the problem lies with people using it on super-deathstars. If you don't think people will abuse this tactic in tournament play, then you are being naïve.

It's not a game if you your opponent pulls this off for a T1 multi-assault to effectively end the game before it even begins. This is the type of shenanigan which will drive newer players away from tournament play.

Ummm pretty much any OP or Semi-OP things in 40k will drive new players away.... Eldar scatter bike / spider spam, GCs, gladius, riptide wings, and etc etc

There was just a article on Frontlinegaming about some new player who field a powerful Tau army and was beating people left and right and causing veteran 40k players to quit the game or something. lol

Cant keep saying one thing that may potentially ruin the game play for some people and not discount all the other powerful things in the current meta. Regardless of how powerful deathstar armies are in the current meta, Eldar is still the top army to beat right now.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Ummm pretty much any OP or Semi-OP things in 40k will drive new players away.... Eldar scatter bike / spider spam, GCs, gladius, riptide wings, and etc etc

I never quite understood arguments like this. It's like people who argue that we should legalize marijuana because it's no worse than drinking alcohol. The problems are cumulative, so if we want to allow new powerful lists it shouldn't be for the reason that it's no worse than other bad things. Those other bad things don't actually go away.

 jy2 wrote:
The power in and of itself isn't too bad when used with normal units. However, the problem lies with people using it on super-deathstars. If you don't think people will abuse this tactic in tournament play, then you are being naïve.

It's not a game if you your opponent pulls this off for a T1 multi-assault to effectively end the game before it even begins. This is the type of shenanigan which will drive newer players away from tournament play.

I understand that played raw it can be abused. But it would be one of many that are being done already.

So tone down the part everyone is scared of the multiple assault part. Swapping units in combat doesn't allow multi charges.

Shooting combo's are already being abuse. To claim assault is worse. Really. Many armies win or lose on going first or second.

How is this different from turn one shooting combo's that do the same thing.

Alpha strike armies, why are shooting ones OK and assaulting ones are not????

What's good for the goose is good for the .....

Has one tournament that's allowed this power have it win it all??

I have yet to hear of one. In fact I have been to only one that even allowed it since the book dropped. There no one in the top ten even used it. The meta handled armies with just fine.
Since the ITC surjested their change not one tournament in my are will even try it. Even though it is only a option to use the rules that way. No one is willing to try as they feel it is expected they go along with it.

shadowfinder wrote:

Has one tournament that's allowed this power have it win it all??

I have yet to hear of one. In fact I have been to only one that even allowed it since the book dropped. There no one in the top ten even used it. The meta handled armies with just fine.
Since the ITC surjested their change not one tournament in my are will even try it. Even though it is only a option to use the rules that way. No one is willing to try as they feel it is expected they go along with it.

The reason TOs are being conservative isn't some magical pressure from the ITC. TOs are concerned with attendance and are not willing to risk making a ruling that will drive people away. High attendance at a tournament isn't sustained by tournament winners. As a TO, I couldn't care less if a particular list/power has ever won a big tournament. I do care about people on the middle and lower tables having fun. Those are the people who will make a decision on coming back based on the fun they had. The folks at the top tables are coming back regardless.

Edit for quote boxes.

bogalubov wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Ummm pretty much any OP or Semi-OP things in 40k will drive new players away.... Eldar scatter bike / spider spam, GCs, gladius, riptide wings, and etc etc

I never quite understood arguments like this. It's like people who argue that we should legalize marijuana because it's no worse than drinking alcohol. The problems are cumulative, so if we want to allow new powerful lists it shouldn't be for the reason that it's no worse than other bad things. Those other bad things don't actually go away.

Sure but who has the right to judge which "bad" things should go away and what shouldn't? Bunch of top ITC Eldar players complaining, so they can continue dominate the top 10 at GTs?? A vote hasn't even been put up yet and they throw in the interim rules.... And then trying to say the interim rules doesn't have to be followed but realistically 99% of TOs hosting ITC events will follow it.

bogalubov wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:

Has one tournament that's allowed this power have it win it all??

I have yet to hear of one. In fact I have been to only one that even allowed it since the book dropped. There no one in the top ten even used it. The meta handled armies with just fine.
Since the ITC surjested their change not one tournament in my are will even try it. Even though it is only a option to use the rules that way. No one is willing to try as they feel it is expected they go along with it.

The reason TOs are being conservative isn't some magical pressure from the ITC. TOs are concerned with attendance and are not willing to risk making a ruling that will drive people away. High attendance at a tournament isn't sustained by tournament winners. As a TO, I couldn't care less if a particular list/power has ever won a big tournament. I do care about people on the middle and lower tables having fun. Those are the people who will make a decision on coming back based on the fun they had. The folks at the top tables are coming back regardless.

Edit for quote boxes.

I just went to a tournament where the middle player where having to face a list that was over 10+ thud canon with rerolls. It is a very brutal list that had a crazy long shooting phase. My friend that played it said it was not fun to play. Easy twin linking and mass fire. For a few of the armies it wasn't even a contest.

As a To you want everyone to have fun. How is taking armies options for the guys at the middle to lower tables making them not come back. This power is not a auto win. More fluffy armies that you see at middle to lower tables work well with this power.

Will guy at the upper tables power game it... yes they will .They will be power playing with any good combo they can find. To say this will cause the player on the lower table to not come back and play is not true.

I have had people stop playing after facing my Tyranids that they had no idea how to handle at first. This is the same give a few months and the people will be building counters to it with no issues. People wanted to shake up the Meta well they did it and now they don't want it.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
The power in and of itself isn't too bad when used with normal units. However, the problem lies with people using it on super-deathstars. If you don't think people will abuse this tactic in tournament play, then you are being naïve.

It's not a game if you your opponent pulls this off for a T1 multi-assault to effectively end the game before it even begins. This is the type of shenanigan which will drive newer players away from tournament play.

Ummm pretty much any OP or Semi-OP things in 40k will drive new players away.... Eldar scatter bike / spider spam, GCs, gladius, riptide wings, and etc etc

There was just a article on Frontlinegaming about some new player who field a powerful Tau army and was beating people left and right and causing veteran 40k players to quit the game or something. lol

Cant keep saying one thing that may potentially ruin the game play for some people and not discount all the other powerful things in the current meta. Regardless of how powerful deathstar armies are in the current meta, Eldar is still the top army to beat right now.

Eldar has already been dealt with. Re-rollabe saves....nerfed. Shooty D....nerfed. Warp Spider flickerjumps....nerfed. Scatbikes? The ITC public voted not to nerf it. But despite the nerfs, Eldar is still a really strong codex.

Gladius, despite being strong in objectives games, hasn't been over-powering. As a matter of fact, the majority of people who played against it had furn. Hence, there was not a need to nerf it.

Tau has been nerfed to a degree, with the Hunter Contingent and Firestream formation being the main culprits. And no, I don't believe there is a magic bullet Tau list that will make veteran 40K'ers quit the game. Sounds more like a one-off. They were probably talking about my friend (and fellow teammate), who actually brought an old-school 6E Tau list with 3 riptides and 9 broadsides. He brought it to a tournament and all 3 of his opponents conceded either on T1 or T2. That was partially due to him getting Master of Ambush and going 1st in 2 of those games.

The ITC guys do test out new powers/formations/combos/etc. They don't just make recommendations based on theoryhammer alone, even though it is easy to see how nonsensical some of these new rules can be.

Now if only the ITC will take a look at some of the shenanigans in the Mymaera book....

shadowfinder wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
The power in and of itself isn't too bad when used with normal units. However, the problem lies with people using it on super-deathstars. If you don't think people will abuse this tactic in tournament play, then you are being naïve.

It's not a game if you your opponent pulls this off for a T1 multi-assault to effectively end the game before it even begins. This is the type of shenanigan which will drive newer players away from tournament play.

I understand that played raw it can be abused. But it would be one of many that are being done already.

So tone down the part everyone is scared of the multiple assault part. Swapping units in combat doesn't allow multi charges.

Shooting combo's are already being abuse. To claim assault is worse. Really. Many armies win or lose on going first or second.

How is this different from turn one shooting combo's that do the same thing.

Alpha strike armies, why are shooting ones OK and assaulting ones are not????

What's good for the goose is good for the .....

Has one tournament that's allowed this power have it win it all??

I have yet to hear of one. In fact I have been to only one that even allowed it since the book dropped. There no one in the top ten even used it. The meta handled armies with just fine.
Since the ITC surjested their change not one tournament in my are will even try it. Even though it is only a option to use the rules that way. No one is willing to try as they feel it is expected they go along with it.

I get it. You disagree with their changes. That's fine. Petition them. Put your case out onto the interwebz. Who knows....you might influence enough people to vote for RAW at the next ITC polls.

But what I really don't understand is why people keep on using the reasoning "well, has anyone ever won a tournament with it?" Just because it hasn't been used by a tournament-winning list doesn't make it alright. Say you take the list and power to a GT. You don't win the GT because in 1 game, your opponent denied your power (or it failed to go off at a crucial time) and then you lose. You think to yourself, well, it's good but it isn't a tournament-winner. But then what about the 3 or 4 opponents that you crushed when the power did go off without a hitch? How did they feel when you crushed their armies on Turn 1 before they could really do anything at all? The ITC isn't concerned about the tournament winner. Rather, what concerns them are powers/combo's that do not allow for much interaction by your opponent. You may not think that powers like Electrodisplacement or Shifting Worldscape are powers that can win tournaments (believe me, they can), but that isn't the point. The point is, they are powers that can consistently give opponents a bad experience because they can be game-crushingly good and they don't allow for very meaningful interaction when they do.

]

 jy2 wrote:
The power in and of itself isn't too bad when used with normal units. However, the problem lies with people using it on super-deathstars. If you don't think people will abuse this tactic in tournament play, then you are being naïve.

It's not a game if you your opponent pulls this off for a T1 multi-assault to effectively end the game before it even begins. This is the type of shenanigan which will drive newer players away from tournament play.
. You disagree with their changes. That's fine. Petition them. Put your case out onto the interwebz. Who knows....you might influence enough people to vote for RAW at the next ITC polls.

But what I really don't understand is why people keep on using the reasoning "well, has anyone ever won a tournament with it?" Just because it hasn't been used by a tournament-winning list doesn't make it alright. Say you take the list and power to a GT. You don't win the GT because in 1 game, your opponent denied your power (or it failed to go off at a crucial time) and then you lose. You think to yourself, well, it's good but it isn't a tournament-winner. But then what about the 3 or 4 opponents that you crushed when the power did go off without a hitch? How did they feel when you crushed their armies on Turn 1 before they could really do anything at all? The ITC isn't concerned about the tournament winner. Rather, what concerns them are powers/combo's that do not allow for much interaction by your opponent. You may not think that powers like Electrodisplacement or Shifting Worldscape are powers that can win tournaments (believe me, they can), but that isn't the point. The point is, they are powers that can consistently give opponents a bad experience because they can be game-crushingly good and they don't allow for very meaningful interaction when they do.

I can see your point. I think you miss understand my point. I don't mind the power being nerfed. It just need to be kept in the spirit of the power.

The power has two ability's. The changes they propose take away one completly and the other is made useless in regards to assault. The power was intended to help assault based list. Now it doesn't at all.. All I am saying there has to be a better way to nerf the power then has been done.

As for your argument of these powers will give bad experiences because they where assaulted turn one. How is this any different then getting shot of the table turn one or two by many list it there to day. There are plenty of things in the game that cause people to have hard experience at a tournament. Honestly I would rather get tabled by assault the shooting. Never even coming close the other army.

I bring assault based armies and getting half shot to death half the time before i get to them is no fun. I also play Tyranids we both know ground based tyranids don't stand a chance verses the shooting armies.

To bad the power isn't available to everyone. Orks and tyranids would have loved it.

I have played you before and I enjoy your battle reports. You even gave advice on my list. I normally wouldn't even comment on the ITC ruling as I see most of them as good for the game I enjoy playing.


With the changes would you even try for that power with your Cent-star? Gate let's you get out of combat and you don't need another unit to make it work.

Even a wolf star will not want it as it get you close but it also takes you in too rapid fire for a turn.

The power when it came was like WOW. That going to change things up a lot. My thoughts where people will have to rethink their lists a lot. Have to think about combat. Many Assault
Based armies became viable so SM.

Question. Would you even take that focus? That was the only power in the whole tree that was like A+ good. Everythin se is like C- at best.


I expected a little nerf to the power. World scape the said to ban it or make it that it only moved a little by not going over other terrain. They kept the spirit of the power. Also the rest of the powers in that group are good to decent. They should have said just ban the power then their complete Shadow of Warping of it. Its completely opposite of the intended use. They made the power useless for assault armies.

I know they test and are very experienced inTO and playing, this couldn't be the only option to change this power they came up with. Is it?


As to abuse of it yes it can be. I just don't see how it is any different from the abuse that's already out there.
Refer made a comment that he meta would turn in to assault death stars turn one. Yes you will see them but that's not all you will see.