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I remember a long long time ago reading a comics strip about an assassin going on a mission against a Planetary Governor who decided to up and leave the Imperium.

Got me thinking a little about three things:


1.) What have been the major Secessionist States throughout the history of the Imperium?

Secessionist State = System or Sector (sorry, a world breaking off just isn't noteworthy) that has broken away from the Imperium to form a cohesive government that lasts.....well until the expected Space Marines, Imperial Guard, etc. come in to correct the situation.

A major point - said Secessionist State did this without being a puppet to another major faction (Chaos, Xenos, etc).

So an example that comes to mind would be the Maelstrom Zone ruled by Huron, the Tyrant of Badab until the forces of the Imperium came to kick him out.

2.) Are there any "current" secessionist states in existence?

The only one I can think of is the Severan Dominate......and it hangs on by a thread.


3.) And now a more philosophical question = Why the heck would anyone think they have a shot of leaving the Imperium of Man?"

Although we know Secession occurs, it seems very illogical given the obvious commitment shown by the Imperium to reclaim its lost territories.

A Secessionist State essentially strikes out on its own, without the backing of say the Tau, or Chaos, or some other faction that might make their leaving the Imperium an actual possiblity.

How do the folks who call for secession actually rationalize to themselves and their people that this will actually work - especially if they known of incidents where it has failed due Assassins, Crusades, or heck Exterminatus.

I think the bigger question is:

Why would they want to leave the imperium in the first place? There's a lot of nasty gak out there.

 Traditio wrote:
I think the bigger question is:

Why would they want to leave the imperium in the first place? There's a lot of nasty gak out there.

But that has to be balanced with the fact that the Imperium can be a rather brutal oppressive system that bleeds the worlds it controls dry.

And sometimes due to various internal issues, the Imperium is unable to respond to the life-or-death needs of its constituent parts.

Hence:

"The High Lords of Terra would bleed us dry for their purposes, at the same time that they refuse to help defend ourselves against the xenos. The time has come to withhold our tithe, so that we may use it for our defence."

— Duke Severus XIII, to the citizens of Lukius

There are many many reasons why a group or system would want to leave the Imperium - that's the easy question.

What i can't fathom is where they get the idea that this is a viable course of action that somehow doesn't end up with them being dead at the end.

I guess they must think that the unknown can't be anymore worse than the known thus they'd take their chances on their own and strike out into a thunderous blaze of all or nothing.

Either that or the thunderous blaze of bolters cleansing the traitors, heathens and xenos

Another thing to consider is the "efficiency" of the Administratum. Those guys operate on a level never seen before

If I was writing the story, the Planet (s) are on the frontier, under xeno attack but without Imperial support. They decide to cancel their tithes to the Imperium to better fight the invaders, and gradually this slips into full independence as the Imperium makes no move to strike back at them.
Then, in 200-odd years, the paperwork catches up to them and the insurgents decedents (who barely even know the Imperium exists) are immolated by a crusade, quickly restoring the status quo to one of proper grimdarkness.

Of course, I can see two other reasons people might try and leave. Maybe the idiot upper class tried something stupid and dragged the rest of the system with them, or maybe the system just got unlucky, was saddled with a corrupt/incompetent/needlessly violent arsehole (by 40k standards) and the people finally decided that an almost certain death by lasgun was better than working with under such a regime.


As far as listing actual sec states, none jump to mind. I know the Tau tend to offer some protection to such states (Pavonis almost became one in Courage and Honour, I think one was mention in Ciaphas Cian). But the OP did say without being a puppet, so maybe these don't count.

Mudrat wrote:

If I was writing the story, the Planet (s) are on the frontier, under xeno attack but without Imperial support. They decide to cancel their tithes to the Imperium to better fight the invaders, and gradually this slips into full independence as the Imperium makes no move to strike back at them.
Then, in 200-odd years, the paperwork catches up to them and the insurgents decedents (who barely even know the Imperium exists) are immolated by a crusade, quickly restoring the status quo to one of proper grimdarkness.

LOL - We can call it "The Day my Grandad Took me Out for Ice Cream." Where the boy's grandfather starts talking about all these old pieces of history no one really cares about....until the Drop Pods start coming down.

As far as listing actual sec states, none jump to mind. I know the Tau tend to offer some protection to such states (Pavonis almost became one in Courage and Honour, I think one was mention in Ciaphas Cian). But the OP did say without being a puppet, so maybe these don't count.

I was kind of fence-sitting on the whole Tau thing.

On the one hand, those incidents that you mention aren't quite like "the Planetary Governor made a deal with a Slaaneshi demon" or some such. They are actually making formal diplomatic moves toward an independent power.

But the result is the same though - in the end those independent worlds end up joining the Tau Empire which provides a modicum of protection.

Something like the Severan Dominate from the Only War RPG interests me a lot more. Squeezed between the Orks and the Imperial Guard, it stands alone.....

There can be plenty of secessions but the Imperium redacts their history in order to portray themselves as never losing worlds to secession. It is like the novel 1984, with the histories redacted to always show them victorious. If a world or sector secedes and successfully fight off the initial Imperial attack, the next attack may be many years or even centuries down the line. Maybe even never if the Administratum lose the file or have endless higher priorities. The area might get marked off again as wilderness space and all records wiped, much like the Jericho Sector for the Black Crusade RPG. Maybe centuries later, an Imperial attack smashes the secessionists down but maybe that never happens at all. The Imperium of 40K is actually smaller in number of worlds than the Imperium of 30K pre-Heresy. Some of those worlds were destroyed but many more were probably forgotten and quietly went their own way again. Some of Macharius's furthest conquests were never recovered after his death so they have also similarly "seceded" from the Imperium.

As for why do people want to secede? First off, the Imperium is not like a modern unified centralized nation state despite some overarching institutions or names that sound like there might be centralized control. The Imperium is more a federation of disparate cultures and planets bound together by feudal obligations.

For some of these planets that are not directly at war, the Imperium may be an abstract concept, even more so if it is a lower tech world with poor understanding of the galaxy and technology. For these worlds, the Imperium may have little meaning or presence in the everyday lives of the planetary population except as an almost religious ideal to pay lip service to, and as the occasional recipient of tithes. For worlds that are prosperous or under heavy tithe obligations, a feeling of resentment may build if it seems all their hard work is just being appropriated by arrogant people from the sky that show up every so often.

Think about how you might feel for example if your world was humming along, and the people show up to take their tithe of resources and manpower. Suddenly your world is plunged into economic depression and hardship, and a large segment of a generation might be effectively wiped out as they are taken, never to return. Large numbers of families will never see their loved ones again and the material goods of life may be in short supply after these people whom you've never seen before, who don't understand your culture, who may look very different and speak very strangely, just take the fruits of your labor. And for what? For some distant war at a place you've never heard of nor care about, or just simply as the claimed due of a distant institution that has certainly never intervened personally at your level.

Think further about what if the tithing was less frequent. The tithing might just be a legend and not something ever experienced in your generation, in any living, or perhaps even recorded memory. Imagine how you would feel if someone you don't know about suddenly shows up claiming they are your absentee landlord and want their payment. Perhaps some cultures preserve their memories of the tithing time as a legendary period of sorrow, disaster, or famine as they deal with the results afterwards.

Although still part of the Imperium, I guess the most successful is Ultramar. They fight for the Imperium but are virtually their own Empire. They don't pay tithes or anything towards the Imperium, other than fighting for them. Everything within Ultramar belongs to Ultramar, but they aren't really forced to give up anything. Undoubtedly because they sit at the end of the Astronomicon and have to pretty much do everything in their sector alone it suits the Imperium for them to be in their own little loyalist bubble. I'd imagine that if they just decided they couldn't be bothered anymore and their successor chapters remained loyal to them, the Imperium would have little option but to accept it.

Although still part of the Imperium, I guess the most successful is Ultramar. They fight for the Imperium but are virtually their own Empire. They don't pay tithes or anything towards the Imperium, other than fighting for them. Everything within Ultramar belongs to Ultramar, but they aren't really forced to give up anything. Undoubtedly because they sit at the end of the Astronomicon and have to pretty much do everything in their sector alone it suits the Imperium for them to be in their own little loyalist bubble. I'd imagine that if they just decided they couldn't be bothered anymore and their successor chapters remained loyal to them, the Imperium would have little option but to accept it.

I don't think one can say Ultramar is a secessionist state. I would say it is like any other political entity among the Imperium ; while big, powerful and ancient it is still subordinated and semi-independent.

The Imperium is not an unified entity, its very structure is the myriad of sectors, pocket empire and human colonies that acknowledge the supreme authority of Terra while the Lords have little to no direct control over them.
The IG regional commands, the Ecclesiarchy, the Mechanicum or the Administratum all exercise power in their own way (and this way can vary from one representative to another within the same organisation) and have a great latitude to do so. The Lords would directly control the upper echelons of this byzantine structure but for the rest, they have no choice but relying on the myriad of political actors that expand through the wider Imperium. I don't say they are unable to act upon them: they would control them by ancient (but very intangible) agreements because there is no good communication between power centres and, in extreme case, enact retaliation by sheer military force.

Despite being more powerful, bigger and despite enjoying better feudal privileges than other Imperial entities, Ultramar is still part of the Imperium. It is not secessionist because it adheres to Imperial ideology and it pay tithes (you can't say giving men to Imperial forces is not a tithe).

Regarding what they would become in case of actual secession, I doubt they would last for long. GW likes to depict the UM as uber heroic warriors able to win everytime, but using such plot armour wouldn't be very credible in a war against the wider Imperium. My two cents.

Note that the Maelstrom Zone was not a secessionist state - or at least it wasn't intended to be.

Huron wasn't trying to declare independence from the Imperium, he was assuming personal rule as the Lord Sector answerable direct to the Emperor - much like Marneus Calgar holds authority in his alternate legal persona as Lord Macragge. In fact, the Ultramar 'constitution' was the legal precedent Lugft Huron was using to do it. The stated goal was to use the region's tithes to fortify it and actually finish pacifying the Maelstrom without getting the rug yanked out from under him at the last minute for the third time in a row rather than passing them along to fill the pockets of the nobility in the next sector over.

The Severan Dominate is one 'secessionist' government, although, again, the average spod in the street still thinks they're loyal to the emperor - they just see his local represntatives (e.g. Marius Hax, Lord Calixis) as corrupt and brutal. Which, let's be fair, they are.

There are also various rogue trader 'realms' out beyond the imperium's boundaries. Such territories interact with the Imperium, but aren't formally Imperial worlds (although most steadily become so).

Bear in mind that to many worlds, the Imperium is a vague, distant memory, and there are few regular interactions. There might not be a formal 'secession' - if all you see of the Imperium is a ship turning up for tithes every twenty decades, it might turn up one day and be told "get lost. We've just had a massive famine" and that's that. They may have no appreciation of the scale of the Imperium. They may not know what they've invited down on their heads. All they know is that, right now, they can't pay what these wierdos from beyond the stars who never give them anything insist they owe....


Equally, even 'educated' worlds might think they have a decent shot. Look at it this way: the Imperium has done diplomatic deals with Xenos empires before to arrange peace treaties and cease-fires because it simply cannot fight every battle it wants to simultaneously. The Imperium is absolutely, 100% committed to reconquering you if you secede.

But currently, the Imperium's military commitments are the Hive Fleets, the 13th Black Crusade, Ghazkghull's wars in and around Octurius and Armageddon, the Tau on the Damocles Gulf, and thousands of other sector- and subsector-scale crusades and minor threats.

A world with decent orbital defences can easily stand off a small punitive force, and any larger force is already allocated to something else. Twice. And as long as the world aren't actively doing anything to draw the Imperium's active ire (like turning raider, or joining a Xenos race, or embracing the chaos gods), they will probably remain the millionth thing on the Imperium's 'to purge' list indefinitely - yes, secession is heresy and dangerous, but.... a squadron of frigates isn't enough, and which embattled sector's cruiser fleet do you want to deprive the respective warzone of for the year or more such a campaign would take?

locarno24 wrote:


The Severan Dominate is one 'secessionist' government, although, again, the average spod in the street still thinks they're loyal to the emperor - they just see his local represntatives (e.g. Marius Hax, Lord Calixis) as corrupt and brutal. Which, let's be fair, they are.

Hmm.. but didn't Duke Severus make the accusation of...

"The High Lords of Terra would bleed us dry for their purposes, at the same time that they refuse to help defend ourselves against the xenos. The time has come to withhold our tithe, so that we may use it for our defence."

— Duke Severus XIII, to the citizens of Lukius

Grievance seems to go well beyond the local representatives...


To another point - do we know of any "secessionist governments" that have existed/currently exist in 40K?

SkyD wrote:
Although still part of the Imperium, I guess the most successful is Ultramar. They fight for the Imperium but are virtually their own Empire. They don't pay tithes or anything towards the Imperium, other than fighting for them. Everything within Ultramar belongs to Ultramar, but they aren't really forced to give up anything. Undoubtedly because they sit at the end of the Astronomicon and have to pretty much do everything in their sector alone it suits the Imperium for them to be in their own little loyalist bubble. I'd imagine that if they just decided they couldn't be bothered anymore and their successor chapters remained loyal to them, the Imperium would have little option but to accept it.

The only part of Ultramar that doesn't pay a tithe are the actual worlds used directly by the Space Marines. The Segmentum Ultima, which contains Ultramar, includes thousands of worlds that are not owned/controlled by the Ultramarines (there's like 7 major Chapters in this segmentum, after all), and Ultramar itself most certainly pays a tithe: The Ultramarines. If the UM (or any other Chapter) withdrew its support from the Imperium entirely, it would cease to exist in relatively short order.

A friend of mine found another "momentary" Secessionist movement:

Sulsalid Campaign - 775-777.M41

The Sulsalid Campaign was prosecuted by the Raptors Chapter in conjunction with elite squadrons of Battlefleet Solar. During the rebellion the worlds of the Sulsalid Sub-sector had deposed their rightful rulers in favour of heretical ideals of 'progress' and 'democracy'. Determined to stop the spread of treachery the Adeptus Terra ordered the swift destruction of the rebellion.

The Raptors took command of retreating Imperial Guard forces and used them as cover to launch their own strikes on the enemy control and supply structure. Before long the power-distribution network of the sub-sector's capital world Auranar was severed in a dozen locations. The rebels retreated before the Imperial Guard's mass assault and Assault Squads and Thunderhawks of the Raptors slew the Sulsalid Ordinators in their sky-palaces, efficiently ending the rebellion

Sadly i don't know the source - anyone got any ideas where this bit is coming from?

If the Sulsalids had won, and the Imperium had no spare forces, I imagine the Imperial response would be to blockade the sub-sector and purge the histories.

"Sulsalid sub-sector? There is no Subsalid sub-sector and there never has been such a sector."

The Nova Terra Interregnum lasted 900 years, and the entire Segmentum Pacificus was independent during that time. Not around anymore, but that's pretty successful in my book-

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Terra_Interregnum

Interestingly, while we don't know much about what was different in Ur-Council rule from Imperium rule, the secessionist government had close ties to several Fallen Angels, including possibly Cypher and definitely Obidiah Hrakon-

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Obidiah_Hrakon

 Psienesis wrote:
If the UM (or any other Chapter) withdrew its support from the Imperium entirely, it would cease to exist in relatively short order.

Chapters turn all the time and many of them still exist, unless you mean the Imperium would cease to exist, but that also still exists.

Originally the Squats left the Imperium after the Squat worlds seceded after something referred to as the Apostasy.

Original fluff indicated that Squats, Ratlings and Ogryns were simply humans who had been in space for 10's of thousands of years on odd worlds (heavy gravity etc.) and had slowly evolved to adapt to their worlds.

At one time the Inquisition ruthlessly hunted down any "humans" with DNA issues (ie. Squats, Ratlings, Ogryns etc.) - wiping out entire worlds and resettling them with 'proper' humans.

I'm not sure what the Apostasy was/is and of course the Squats were then retconned later to have been eaten(?).

 fallinq wrote:
The Nova Terra Interregnum lasted 900 years, and the entire Segmentum Pacificus was independent during that time. Not around anymore, but that's pretty successful in my book-

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Terra_Interregnum

Interestingly, while we don't know much about what was different in Ur-Council rule from Imperium rule, the secessionist government had close ties to several Fallen Angels, including possibly Cypher and definitely Obidiah Hrakon-

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Obidiah_Hrakon

Wait a whole Segmentum ended up being a Separatist state?

Well, I guess they get the award for "Largest attempt at a Breakaway"....

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the UM (or any other Chapter) withdrew its support from the Imperium entirely, it would cease to exist in relatively short order.

Chapters turn all the time and many of them still exist, unless you mean the Imperium would cease to exist, but that also still exists.

Chapters that fall rarely (read as: never) maintain their original homeworlds, instead fleeing into the Eye of Terror or similar remote areas to hide from the Imperium. If the UM, specifically, withdrew its support, it'd herald something like a Second Heresy, but one the UM would not survive.

There are a fair few that have tried but fee if any have succeeded for long.

The issues are as follows

A) It can take a long time for the Imperium to realise its even happened (possibly the main reason it happens!)
B) Once they know its happened it can be a long time before its of significance to do anything about
C) once its significant enough it can take a long time for the reasources/lack of other priority to allow it to happen (Imperial Response)
D) typically once A thru C happen the seccesion is over in short order

Found another called the - Obscuran Uprisings, in the Codex: CSM 4th edition.

The leadership in this case was the Free Council of Hannedra II, although i can't tell which segmentum this took place in.

Time period was around the 35th millenium.

The Free Council was eventually crushed by the "Songs of Vengeance" and "Silver Guards" Space Marine Chapters....who kind of took it a little too far and went rogue and eventually fell to Chaos.