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Who can use the new Space Marine psychic powers? I was at a tournament and a Space Wolf player was allowed to use them, can grey knights use them also?

Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines can use the new, marine-specific psychic powers

Can you give some support for this, Tactical_Spam.

My GK codex does not give permission for any of my characters to generate on the new trees, and there's no GK FAQ that I'm aware of that modifies my codex.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines can use the new, marine-specific psychic powers

Actually there's conflicting information on who can use the new psychic powers from Angels of Death. The book says 'Any Psyker of the Space Marine Faction...' which would preclude Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels. However the quick reference chart on the Adeptus Astartes psychic power cards allows them to take those powers.



Until clarified, its best to discuss with your opponent or check with the tournament organizers if in doubt.

Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.

Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.

-snip-
I got beaten to it

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.

Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.

From Codex: Angels of Death "Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the [insert new disciplines], in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."

I forget where but somewhere it says that a Space Marine factions include Vanilla, BA, DA, SW and GK

Edit: actually I think I'm wrong on this one. Regardless the datacard is GW produced and so I think we can treat it as RAW anyway. Shouldn't need more proof

Thanks everyone!

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.

Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.

From Codex: Angels of Death "Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the [insert new disciplines], in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."

I forget where but somewhere it says that a Space Marine factions include Vanilla, BA, DA, SW and GK

Edit: actually I think I'm wrong on this one. Regardless the datacard is GW produced and so I think we can treat it as RAW anyway. Shouldn't need more proof

The closest thing to what you mention is the designer note in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, which is specific to that codex only.

 Brother Payne wrote:
-snip-
I got beaten to it

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yeah, currently GK, BA, DA & SW have access to the new lores as faction, but RaW they have no models that are allowed to generate powers off them.

Hopefully this will get FaQed (since GW is now doing that again it seems), but most people house rule (and the tournament probably did, too) that Librarians (or Rune Priests in the case of the puppies) are able to generate from them.

From Codex: Angels of Death "Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the [insert new disciplines], in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."

I forget where but somewhere it says that a Space Marine factions include Vanilla, BA, DA, SW and GK

Edit: actually I think I'm wrong on this one. Regardless the datacard is GW produced and so I think we can treat it as RAW anyway. Shouldn't need more proof

Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.

nekooni wrote:
Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.

Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...

 Brother Payne wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Still no unit in GK codex has access to it. The regular psychic reference card also shows discipline access for factions that have no unit that actually uses it.

Wait like which..? All listed factions have Psykers no? I think it would be fairly ridiculous for anyone to argue against you using the new disciplines on the grounds that whilst your faction can use it none of your units can...

There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.

Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.

 Stephanius wrote:
There are no rules supporting or defining access for special marine faction units to the new disciplines.

Without rules providing permission, it is quite ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost and expect opponents to be fine with that.

There are very specific rules defining who has access to the powers in a space marine faction actually. "Any Pskyer with the Space Marine faction". So it is not at all "ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost". They do have access.

 Brother Payne wrote:
There are very specific rules defining who has access to the powers in a space marine faction actually. "Any Pskyer with the Space Marine faction". So it is not at all "ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost". They do have access.

What he's saying is that for the Space Marines Faction we have the following:

"Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from [the new disciplines]..."

But for Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. we do not.

Rather we have the Datacards stating those Factions have access to the new disciplines, but without detailing which units may use them.

Because "the Space Marines Faction" doesn't include Blood Angels etc.

As a reasonable person, personally? Sure I'd extend the powers to "any Psyker with any Factions listed on the Datacards" to generate their powers. But as RAW? It says nothing about whether it's all or which Psykers from those Factions.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
There are very specific rules defining who has access to the powers in a space marine faction actually. "Any Pskyer with the Space Marine faction". So it is not at all "ridiculous to just assume that every psyker in a special marine faction has access to all new disciplines at no opportunity cost". They do have access.

What he's saying is that for the Space Marines Faction we have the following:

"Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from [the new disciplines]..."

But for Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. we do not.

Rather we have the Datacards stating those Factions have access to the new disciplines, but without detailing which units may use them.

Because "the Space Marines Faction" doesn't include Blood Angels etc.

As a reasonable person, personally? Sure I'd extend the powers to "any Psyker with any Factions listed on the Datacards" to generate their powers. But as RAW? It says nothing about whether it's all or which Psykers from those Factions.

Fair enough. Not much one can say to argue against that. RAI it's very clear imo, but yes RAW I see there is an issue.

Who can cast Psychic powers normally? Librarians, obviously. You need a Psychic Mastery Level to cast a psychic power, so I don't understand the confusion at all. This game has some very strange people playing it, if they're confused about such an intuitive, obvious answer.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Who can cast Psychic powers normally? Librarians, obviously. You need a Psychic Mastery Level to cast a psychic power, so I don't understand the confusion at all. This game has some very strange people playing it, if they're confused about such an intuitive, obvious answer.

I agree; the RAI is pretty obvious. But for those wishing to address the rules purely on RAW, then yes there is an issue of who can use the powers, even with such a clear RAI

GW clearly intends these type of suppliments to be interpreted intuitively, which I believe means they have some kind of faith in their customer base's intellect and ability to put 2 and 2 together...clearly, they have too much optimism towards some of the people who play this game.

So what is the "obvious intent" for GK psykers? Everything has a mastery level in that codex. Everyone gets access now ?

What about the DW psyker that only has access to biomancy right now ?

And while we're at it I'm going ahead and give my inquisition and Astra militarum guys access to all the regular disciplines as shown on the regular reference card, right ?

Can normal GK models roll on other psychic discipline charts? No? Then no, they cannot. Can their actual librarians? Yes? Then yes, they can.

If the DW psyker rules specifically state he can only take the Biomancy discipline, then that is a more specific rule, and should take precedence.

Inquisition and AM are battle brothers to SM, not part of the SM faction, obviously. Nowhere are those two factions mentioned, so no idea what you're getting at there.

nekooni wrote:
So what is the "obvious intent" for GK psykers? Everything has a mastery level in that codex. Everyone gets access now ?

There is a difference between "Pskyer", "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psychic Pilot". I think it is clear that those with the Psyker special rule have access.

What about the DW psyker that only has access to biomancy right now ?

He gets it just as Sevrin Loth does.... Otherwise there is no reason for the DW to have access

And while we're at it I'm going ahead and give my inquisition and Astra militarum guys access to all the regular disciplines as shown on the regular reference card, right ?

Um what. They're not on the datacard.

 Brother Payne wrote:
There is a difference between "Pskyer", "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psychic Pilot". I think it is clear that those with the Psyker special rule have access.

Except the Psychic phase rules say this:

"For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."

So yeah, there's not necessarily a difference.

Um what. They're not on the datacard.

He said regular reference card. That lists Astra Militarum as having access to all of the regular disciplines. Except we know that the Astropath for example is only allowed to generate from Telepathy according to the codex, while the Primaris Psyker is allowed to generate from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis. What you're suggesting is that both Astropath and Primaris Psyker should have access to all of the regular disciplines just because the regular reference card says so.

Similarly here with the new disciplines we've got a reference card saying the Faction has access to all powers but, by the Astra Militarum example, it's clear that is talking about overall Faction access, not unit access. And sadly there's no specification of unit access for non-Space Marine Faction.

In that case, if specific psychic disciplines are mentioned, then those are the disciplines that can be chosen, not these new ones that are SPECIFIC TO SPACE MARINE FACTIONS. If there is no specification access to non-CSM factions, then non-CSM factions can't take them. What's the confusion here?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
In that case, if specific psychic disciplines are mentioned, then those are the disciplines that can be chosen, not these new ones that are SPECIFIC TO SPACE MARINE FACTIONS. If there is no specification access to non-CSM factions, then non-CSM factions can't take them. What's the confusion here?

Which Psykers in the non-Codex Space Marine factions can take them? Can a BA Librarian> What about Mephiston? What about a Librarian Dreadnought? Which GK Psykers? Can a Grandmaster use them? What about Purifiers?

Yes, all loyal Space Marine variants have access, but currently no units do, outside of Codex: Space Marines.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
There is a difference between "Pskyer", "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Psychic Pilot". I think it is clear that those with the Psyker special rule have access.

Except the Psychic phase rules say this:

"For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."

So yeah, there's not necessarily a difference.

Um what. They're not on the datacard.

He said regular reference card. That lists Astra Militarum as having access to all of the regular disciplines. Except we know that the Astropath for example is only allowed to generate from Telepathy according to the codex, while the Primaris Psyker is allowed to generate from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy and Telekinesis. What you're suggesting is that both Astropath and Primaris Psyker should have access to all of the regular disciplines just because the regular reference card says so.

Similarly here with the new disciplines we've got a reference card saying the Faction has access to all powers but, by the Astra Militarum example, it's clear that is talking about overall Faction access, not unit access. And sadly there's no specification of unit access for non-Space Marine Faction.

Fair points. RAI I'd be letting the DW librarian use the powers regardless as there is no other reason for DW to be able to take the powers. I would also be letting all BA, DA and SW Psykers take them. Not so sure about GK, and regardless, this does need an FAQ.

Edit: I think the outcome of that would be them simply adjusting "Psykers with the Space Marine faction" to "Psykers with the SM, GK, BA, DA, DW or SW factions". Thus allowing all GK Psyker units to use the powers. Alternatively they may rule it to units with the Psyker USR, rather than all Psykers. Ofc that will remain to be seen

Why wouldn't a BA librarian be able to use the new powers, or Mephiston, or a libby dreadnought? They're psykers with a mastery level, and it clearly says that BA can take the new disciplines.

GK units specifically state which powers they know from sanctic - if they don't specifically state that, such as with their librarians, then can choose an allowed discipline.

For example, the grand master states that they can choose: Daemonology(Sanctic), Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines

As opposed to a Strike Squad, which states: Strike Squads know the Banishment and Hammerhand powers from the Daemonology (Sanctic) discipline.

Its VERY obvious where GK can draw their powers from, and it's unfortunate that some players can't seem to grasp it.

The RAW is very clear on this one. The RAI is also very clear, but we play the game and argue RAW in YMDC. TLDR: Only Faction Space Marines can use the new powers.

This is the permissions for which units can access the new psychic powers. Notice it says Space Marines faction. This means only Codex Space Marine Psykers can generate powers from these new disciplines. Space Marines Faction does not include Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves, as they are their own respective factions. This is evident by their different codices as well as the following from the BRB:


Now, everyone keeps arguing that the reference card gives the Factions the ability to access these powers, and it does. The problem with that is that it only tells us the faction has access to those powers, not that everything in that faction that can generate powers can generate from those disciplines.



These are the two reference cards for psychic powers. Notice that the Chaos Demons Faction can access Biomancy. This obviously doesn't mean that every psyker in the Chaos Demons Faction can generate powers from Biomancy, only that some units/models in the codex can access them. This is evident in the Lord of Change entry, where it lists what powers it can take.


Notice the faction has access, but this model can't access it. The same applies for the new powers and the BA/GK/DA/SW Factions. The Faction has access to that power, it's just not defined what that access is at the moment. I mean, check out Blood Angels. It says the Faction has access to Telepathy and Telekinesis, but no models currently in the book can generate powers from those two disciplines (but they can generate from Pyromancy now).

You do realize the last card is from 2014, right?

Someone mentioned Sevrin Loth: note that Sevrin Loth may only roll on the new powers at the moment, but he may not pick from them. He can only pick from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
You do realize the last card is from 2014, right?

And?

That's the reference card for this product, for the rulebook psychic disciplines.

The point of showing that is to point out that a Faction having a particular discipline available to it according to the reference card does not mean that all Psykers within that Faction have access to those disciplines, as evidenced in Astra Militarum, Daemons etc. where a particular Psyker unit has access to a certain discipline while another Psyker unit has access to other disciplines.

Crazyterran wrote:Someone mentioned Sevrin Loth: note that Sevrin Loth may only roll on the new powers at the moment, but he may not pick from them. He can only pick from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis.

I mentioned Sevrin Loth and yes; there is no rule allowing him to pick powers from the new disciplines, only to roll on them. I brought up Sevrin Loth to suppose that the new powers would overrule the restriction to which powers a units may take - for example the DW librarian that can only take biomancy. I am aware that this does not currently allow that librarian to take the new powers as there is nothing RAW stating that he may, but it was to address someone's objection that he would be limited by the biomancy restriction.

Mr. Shine wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
You do realize the last card is from 2014, right?

And?

That's the reference card for this product, for the rulebook psychic disciplines.

The point of showing that is to point out that a Faction having a particular discipline available to it according to the reference card does not mean that all Psykers within that Faction have access to those disciplines, as evidenced in Astra Militarum, Daemons etc. where a particular Psyker unit has access to a certain discipline while another Psyker unit has access to other disciplines.

I think retrogamer's point was that there has been a blood angels codex update since the card was released, hence the change in powers available to them (I cannot say for certain as I do not have the new BA codex to compare).

Your point about disciples available to certain codices vs disciplines available to units within said codex remains.

Edit: spelling