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Made in au
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





Melbourne, Australia

 Mr. Shine wrote:
 CKO wrote:
Do you own the supplement?

Turn to the page prior to the new terminators, there is an entry that says psychic powers that is where I got the quote from!


I've not got access to my books right now, but I'm happy to take your word for it.

That doesn't answer my other points regarding faction, though. "The Space Marines Faction" does not mean "A Space Marine chapter".

EDIT:

Right, now I see your confusion. As you say, it states "Any Librarian with the Space Marines Faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from..."

As I stated though, that restricts it to Librarians of the "Space Marines Faction". That does not include Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves (who don't even have Librarians) or Grey Knights. They each have their own Faction ("Blood Angels Faction", "Dark Angels Faction" etc.) which is not the Space Marines Faction. When it talks about Chapter it is referring to Chapter Tactics within the Space Marines Faction.

For example, if a Dark Angels Librarian is considered part of the Space Marines Faction it could not be included in the Dark Angels Lion's Blade Strike Force - as we can see from the Lion's Blade Strike detachment's restrictions:

"Only the datasheets listed above can be included in this Detachment, and all units in the Detachment must have the Dark Angels Faction."
Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Brother Payne wrote:
Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?


I don't know that we're required to take only one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive in how they're they're phrased.
   
Made in au
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





Melbourne, Australia

 Mr. Shine wrote:
 Brother Payne wrote:
Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?


I don't know that we're required to take only one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive in how they're they're phrased.

Actually fair point. The two sentences don't conflict; one just gives a wider scope than the other
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Brother Payne wrote:
 Mr. Shine wrote:
 Brother Payne wrote:
Hmm, which then should take precedence? "Any Psyker" or "any Librarian"? RAW could it not be argued that Tiggy is not a Librarian (ofc I'm well aware he's a librarian; but rules-wise..)?


I don't know that we're required to take only one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive in how they're they're phrased.

Actually fair point. The two sentences don't conflict; one just gives a wider scope than the other


Exactly. I'd just use the Psyker one as that is more inclusive. But both work together just fine, and both tell you clearly that this whole thing is all about the Space Marine faction. Not the Space Wolves faction or any other faction, it is just the Space Marine faction.

And if you (mostly: CKO) want to argue that the Space Marine faction contains e.g. Grey Knights and Blood Angels, you're welcome to use that houserule - but it's not supported by any official GW publication currently in use.
I mean, sure, thats a nice way to get around the BB Transport ruling by saying "we're one faction, haha! Superfriends are back!".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/07 12:36:19


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From Codex Angels of Death:

'Forces of The Space Marines', pg. 52
PSYCHIC POWERS
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the Space Marines Faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

'Psykana Librarius', pg. 107
LIBRARIANS
Any Psyker with the Space Marines Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to.

Page 107 is the actual rule. Page 52 is just the introduction to the rules section of the book.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
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Now knowing that they have it in there twice ("SM Faction") - ugh. Then it's either deliberate and the rules writers meant for the powers to be vanilla only and GW advertising didn't get (and still hasn't gotten) the memo, or the writers really thought SM Faction means all codices with any type of SM. I'm now thinking the former, but it will probably be changed later because of the feth up.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

There's other uses of the term 'Space Marines Faction' in the book, just none that apply to the psychic powers.

Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be a White Scars Detachment...

A White Scars Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment.

These are repeated for Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard.

The Space Marine player’s Warlord must have the Space Marines Faction.

This is found in all of the Altar of War missions.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Or theyre waiting on the upcoming Codex specific FAQs to errata it in.

Rather than interfering with that process.

Just a thought.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

CKO, you have demonstrated a pretty large misunderstanding of what factions are.
But, I'll ask two questions that I think illustrate the problems with what you're saying.
These questions have been asked in previous posts in this thread, but you've skipped past them. Maybe putting them clearly here will help.

Please use rules, not fluff, in your answers.

1) According to your interpretation, what Space Wolves unit can generate powers from the new AoD disciplines? Why can this unit do so?

2) The reference card for the 7e psychic powers shows that Chaos Daemons can access Biomancy. Does this meant that my Pink Horrors can generate powers from Biomancy? Why or why not? (As a note, in their codex, Pink Horrors have access to two disciplines: Change and Divination; there is no errata altering this.)

Here's my thoughts on my questions.
Spoiler:

1) Your argument is based on the idea that since AoD mentions space marine librarians, any unit called librarian from any army that wears primarily power armour and pledges allegiance to the Emperor can generate from the new disciplines. This would exclude Space Wolves, since they do not have a unit called librarian. Why do you think GW would exclude Space Wolves? I cannot see a valid reason for that exclusion.

2) I think based on your flawed argument you'll have to say "Yes, Pink Horrors can generate from Biomancy."
If you try to say no, you might reference the publication dates of various books, but this is ridiculous. The 7e rulebook and the Daemons codex are both current, there is no newer publication supplanting either of them, and should be used in conjunction with each other. As a player, I cannot be expected to keep up with publication dates of individual books in addition to everything else in this complicated game. So long as I have the most recent publication (and any applicable FAQs), I should be able to make sense of the rules. I should not have to resort to a timeline of when books were published.
The answer has to be no, though, because of the rules. We have to look at the unit entries to determine what each unit can generate. While I would LOVE a unit of 20 Horrors with Iron Arm, that is not legal.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/07 15:44:47


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I said what I had to say I cannot ignore the reference card. I understand your complex excuses to the logical response one will get from reading the reference card but it doesn't create confusion. I choose to go with the simple response and not the card can mean this, it doesn't say this, pink horrors don't have access to those powers listed so librarians shouldn't have access to those powers, thus the card is incorrect.

You literally want others to draw several circles to come to your conclusion instead of just going with what your eyes show you, with that being said I choose not to explain to my opponent in a 5 minute paragraph why his eyes maybe deceiving him.

The point of reference card is to prevent these debates from happening. Not my style, not happening, once more a picture is worth a thousand words and you guys can argue against every single word but I am not!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/07 20:05:19


   
Made in us
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Astonished of Heck

 CKO wrote:
I said what I had to say I cannot ignore the reference card. I understand your complex excuses to the logical response one will get from reading the reference card but it doesn't create confusion. I choose to go with the simple response and not the card can mean this, it doesn't say this, pink horrors don't have access to those powers listed so librarians shouldn't have access to those powers, thus the card is incorrect.

You literally want others to draw several circles to come to your conclusion instead of just going with what your eyes show you, with that being said I choose not to explain to my opponent in a 5 minute paragraph why his eyes maybe deceiving him.

The point of reference card is to prevent these debates from happening. Not my style, not happening, once more a picture is worth a thousand words and you guys can argue against every single word but I am not!

A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a picture of Old Ironsides doesn't help when I want to install an Evenrude on a rowboat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/07 20:07:07


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Made in gb
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Okay CKO, which of my Space Wolf units can use Geokinesisy?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Ottawa, Canada

CKO - you aren't going to win the argument, what they're saying is true - the non-space marine faction units have no specific rule saying which models get which powers.

however

What is also true is that most tournaments, groups and players are allowing the other factions to use the powers according to the reference sheet and pretty much allowing any psyker from those factions to use a power as long as they have a check mark by the power on the reference sheet.

And if I were a betting man I'd say in the future they will specify it in their codexes.
   
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Astonished of Heck

 chaosmarauder wrote:
CKO - you aren't going to win the argument, what they're saying is true - the non-space marine faction units have no specific rule saying which models get which powers.

however

What is also true is that most tournaments, groups and players are allowing the other factions to use the powers according to the reference sheet and pretty much allowing any psyker from those factions to use a power as long as they have a check mark by the power on the reference sheet.

And if I were a betting man I'd say in the future they will specify it in their codexes.

I concur.

Realistically speaking, only the most Marine-hating players/TOs will reject allowing these to propagate across all the Marine Chapter codices as the reference card states.

However, this is a case of the players being smarter than the ruleset they are given. This is a common occurrence with GW games and most of us are used to it.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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 CKO wrote:
PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?




Right. Incomplete quote. You're leaving out the important information on the rest of that page.


It's very clear when it says "regardless of which chapter" it means "White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists (and their successor chapters)." Everything in this book is for Codex: Space Marines only. The reference card could just be future proofed with the new FAQ's that are going to add powers to the non SM codices.
   
Made in au
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Melbourne, Australia

Mulletdude wrote:
 CKO wrote:
PG 52 of the Codex Supplemernt Angels of Death (notice its not a supplement for Codex Space Marines but Angels of Death which is a nickname given to space marines regardless of their chapter)

Psychic Powers
Within this section you will find several Psychic Disciplines. Any Librarian with the space marine faction, regardless of which Chapter he is drawn from, may generate powers from these Disciplines in addition to those listed on his datasheet.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights are different chapters right? Do they have units called Librarians? If so they may generate powers from these disciplines correct?




Right. Incomplete quote. You're leaving out the important information on the rest of that page.


It's very clear when it says "regardless of which chapter" it means "White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists (and their successor chapters)." Everything in this book is for Codex: Space Marines only. The reference card could just be future proofed with the new FAQ's that are going to add powers to the non SM codices.

By CKO's ruling my dark angels could take an anvil strike force

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I think this has circled around enough times by this point.

 
   
 
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